The misleading translation n interpretation of Matthew 24 : 29-30

[The Light]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You imagine this because you pull the 5th seal out of its context. The context is first chapters 4 & 5, then the first four seals. Here is, word for word, something God spoke to me.

The fifth seal occurs during the Great Tribulation. For the 182nd time. The seals are not opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The first four seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24. The fifth seal take place during the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. The tribulation is over at that point and when the 7th seal is opened, the wrath of God can begin.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision."

Jesus is totally correct. Until you can answer the questions correctly you will never understand this vision.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here are His three Questions. 

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Stephen SAW me there. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Please, go ahead: answer His three questions he asked me. Here is where you stand now: "you will never understand this vision."

The sad part is, you THINK you do.

Let me answer the three questions correctly so you can understand the vision.

1. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

Answer - It is a vision and I was not there at that time.

2. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Answer - It is a vision and I was not there at that time.

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4.

Answer - It is a vision and the Holy Spirit was in the throne room in that vision.

I am quite surprised that Jesus did not ask you this question so you would have understanding.

Question - If you think that you have correctly answered question 1,2 and 3 how is it that Revelation 1,2, and 3 are written to the 7 Churches that according to you cannot exist because according to you Jesus had not died yet and was not worthy until Revelation 5.

You are basing your thesis on incorrect information and conclusions. The seals are not opened and will not be open until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, because the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

[The Light]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The 6th seal is the official beginning of the Day of His Wrath. (Paul called it the Day of the Lord.) We can be sure, at this time, GOD IS ANGRY. Therefore, the rapture must come JUST BEFORE the 6th seal.

Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal. See Matthew 24. The world will see Jesus in the clouds at the 6th seal.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

They know the wrath of God is coming. Hide us they cry. When the 7th seal is opened wrath can begin. Wrath cannot begin until the 7th seal opened. This is simple stuff. Use common sense.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

At Paul's famous rapture passage, 1 Thes. 4 & 5, Paul mentions the Day of the Lord just three verses AFTER we who are alive and remain are caught up. A few verses later Paul mentions God's wrath—both in His rapture passage. What is Paul telling us? He is telling us that the rapture OF THE CHURCH will come just before wrath. How do you not see this?

Paul is telling us that the rapture of the Church will happen at the trump of God. Then Paul talks of the times and seasons, meaning there is a time for the rapture and a time for the day of the Lord. They are in different seasons. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The days of the Lord happens when the 7th seal is opened. Two completely different times and seasons which is why Paul did not say "of the TIME and SEASON.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Forget "firstfruits" and trying to relate it to the rapture of the church. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of ISRAEL.

Awesome. You got one. The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the second harvest and have nothing to do with the rapture of the Church. The Church is raptured before the seals are opened.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Why are you trying to MIX the church in with Israel? In a previous post you pointed out that the 70th week is for ISRAEL, not the church. When God begins wrath, IT IS FOR ISRAEL and for the nations, not for the church.

I am not trying to mix the Church with Israel. For the 212th time, the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore, the rapture just before the 6th seal will be the rapture of the CHURCH.

Nope. For the 213th time, the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please explain with scripture how you came to this conclusion. What Paul wrote about the rapture of THE CHURCH fits perfectly a moment before the 6th seal start of God's wrath. (God BEGINS His wrath [He gets angry] at the 6th seal, but His wrath is only FELT by people at the first trumpet.)

Jesus returns at the 6th seal. It is the second harvest which is why there are 144,000 first fruits and they are the first fruits of the second harvest.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is as if you are examining a tree. Step back a thousand paces so you can see the forest: The 70th week is FUTURE to the 6th seal.

The 70th week begins when the 1st seal is opened. 

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

The Jews are not going to believe in Jesus until they SEE HIM and see the nail holes in His hands and feet. He does not return (so they could see Him) until Revelation 19. How do you not see this?

Part of Israel will see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, where ever do you find that Israel will be "caught up?" The catching up is for those who are alive and remain of those who are "in Christ." That means the church or the body of Christ on earth. The Jews will REMAIN on earth to repopulate the earth during the millennial reign of Christ.

The Lord comes for the seed of the woman, Israel at the 6th seal. This is why you see the great multifude that is gathered from heaven and earth. 

Only those of the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Have you ever watched a play where they close the curtain between acts? This explains Revelation 7. John has gone right through the seals, one after another, as Jesus opens them, until the 6th seal. He breaks for an intermission. WHY? Have you ask God this question?

The truth is, John CANNOT arrive at the 7th seal that opens the 70th week, UNTIL God the Father sees TWO EVENTS accomplished: 

The 70th week begins when the 1st seal is opened. 

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1) God must see the 144,000 of Israel sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments. After that, God will rapture them to heaven. The next time John sees these 144,000, they are in heaven as we read in Revelation 14. 

If you understood what you are reading, you would understand that the 144,000 do not go through the wrath of God. They are sealed when they believe. If you understood that Revelation 14 takes place in the seals you see the great tribulation which occurs in the 5th seal. Then you would realize that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the great tribulation which means they are not going through wrath. Wrath is over at the 6th seal................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULION OF THOSE DAYS........and then wrath begins when the 7th seal is opened.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

2) God our Father MUST SEE the church safely in heaven before He begins the 70th week. It is for Israel, not for the church, as you already know.

Well you understand that. Thats a step in the right direction. Now all you have to understand is that the seals are not opened yet and will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

After God sees these two events accomplished, then Jesus will open the 7th seal and begin The time of Jacob's trouble.

Jacobs trouble is over when Jesus comes for the 2nd harvest at the 6th seal which is why you see the great multitude that was gathered from heaven and earth.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you only understood that chapter 11, with TWO countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, you would know that the 7th trumpet is written in a MIDPOINT chapter, and is therefore sounded at the division point of the week. 

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord............HE HAS SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH. It is the time of judgement.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Remember Jesus' words to me: "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked..." When I asked Him how I could find it, He then talked about the 5 countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week; two are in chapter 11, two are in chapter 12, and one is in chapter 13. These are MIDPOINT chapters. How do you not see this?

Chapter 11 is PART of the wrath of God. The wrath of God lasts just over a year. It cannot be the midpoint.

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems you have chopped up Revelation and put all the pieces into a hat, then drew them out and so rearranged the events of revelation by chance.

I have rearranged nothing. Revelation reads just like Genesis 7. Go read Genesis 7 and let me know how many times Noah loads the animals. How many floods are there?

You do not understand what you are reading. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. This is why you see the great tribulation in Revelation, which occurs during the fifth seal and you see the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal, which is why there is a great multitude in Rev 7

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If I were you, I would start over: leaving Revelation in the exact order John wrote it, and BELIEVE in John's chronology.

I fully believe Johns chronology. I just understand that John gives us two views of the tribulation and two views of wrath. Just like we get 3 views of Noah loading the animals and 3 views of the earth being flooded.

Some day you need to understand what you are reading.

[Shilohsfoal]

On 2/26/2021 at 4:34 AM, R. Hartono said:

Many people after reading Matt 24:29-30 take conclusion that the Rapture will happen after the SUN IS DARKENED in the Tribulation.

 

Matt 24 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

 

Its not true, how can people work in the field if the sun is already darkened ?

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

People work in the field/agriculture during DAYlight (the sun still shines) so when Jesus appear on the cloud to gather his elect the sun will still be shining.

 

Because the word "immediately after the tribulation" refer to the darkening of the sun in verse 29, NOT REFERRING TO VERSE 30.

 

Lets see the original greek version :

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-29.htm

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation =eutheos de meta  ten  thlipsin (in greek)

meta was translated as after but meta also mean "with" in english,

In fact meta was translated as "WITH" much more often in the new Testament.

https://biblehub.com/greek/3326.htm

so the more appropriate translation should read

immedately WITH the  tribulation

 

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/24-30.htm

Matt 24:30 And then will appear = koi tote phanesetai (in greek)

tote was translated as then but tote also mean "at the time" (at the end of times).

so the more correct translation of Matt 24:30 should read : At the time (the end of times) will appear the sign.....

https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/the-meaning-of/greek-word-a6237fdc346c2121c1c30659161d65ecf7c1e501.html

This explain that rapture shall take place at the end of times and not necessarily after the darkening of the sun in the great tribulation.

 

The saints will not be wearing their best suite and tie to welcome Jesus as nobody knows precisely when it shall take place. Some will even sleep in the bed. Who would want to work in the field if the sun is already darkened by the 4th trumpet ? After one third of the trees n all green grass hv been burnt n massive heat n smoke cover the world ? Water source is poisoned by wormwood ? Mega tsunami strike the land all over the world which drown one third of the ship n locusts released to torture people in open air ?

 

There will be hardly any crop from the land any longer n the people will rob anything by all means, which means there will be no sharing but brutal looting door to door. People may become cannibals as death bodies will be abundant. Thats why the foolish virgins screamed "Lord Lord...take us in", "I know you not".

 

People work in the fiield when the sun still shines :

I see you've never worked on a farm .

 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

I guess you missed the part where I posted both old and new testament so you could see that the old testament was talking about the events of the six seal and the year of wrath to come. Here you go, I'll repost your filter.

Isaiah 34 (Old Testament)

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Revelation 6 (New Testament)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places

OK, you argue from the Old Testment, and I will show you the NEW. 

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
...
Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, 

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; 

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 6:17, in Revelation chapter 6, BEFORE the 70th Week, shows us the BEGINNING of God's wrath.
Revelation 11:18 shows us God is continuing His wrath (and the DAY of His wrath), at the MIDPOINT of the 70th Week.
Revelation 14:10 show us God's wrath continues on AFTER the midpoint of the Week.
Revelation 14:19 shows us God's wrath, if anything, is increasing.
Revelation 15:1 shows us God's earth continues, long after the midpoint of the Week. This verse shows us that each bowl judgment will be filled with His wrath. This is nearer to the END of the Week, than it is the midpoint pf the Week.
Revelation 16:19 shows us God's wrath remains strong AFTER the 70th week has ended (It will end at the 7th bowl.)

Now we have proof that God's wrath begins before the week and extends through the entire week, and God still has wrath.
Revelation 19:15 shows us that even after the week has finished, when Jesus comes to Armageddon, God's wrath remains.

Someone who imagines a lot may say that all this wrath is only going to be one year long, hanging tight to a manner of speech in an Old Testament scripture.

Daniel 9:27 along with Jesus' words that those in Judea must flea when they see the abomination, nails the midpoint abomination to chapter ll. 

The five countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week also confirm that in chapters 11, 12, and 13 are MIDPOINT chapters.

Finally, the last three words of Rev. 16:17 "IT IS DONE," confirms the week will end here at this verse.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

The fifth seal occurs during the Great Tribulation. For the 182nd time. The seals are not opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel.

For the 183rd time, anyone can pull verses out of their context and make then say almost anything. 

What is the contest?
Rev. 4: Jesus NOT SEEN in the throne room, and the Holy Spirit still there, showing us this must be before Jesus ascended.

Rev. 5 Jesus NOT FOUND in a search for one worthy, but in a subsequent search WAS found, showing us the moment Jesus rose from the dead.

Rev. 5: Jesus ascends (after rising from the dead) and then sends the Holy Spirit down.

WHEN? WHEN did Jesus ascend and send the Holy Spirit down? That would be around 32 or 33 AD. And that is when Jesus took the book and began opening the seals.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

The first four seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.

Yes, I will agree, but with the stipulation that the Beginning of Sorrows is as Jesus said, "THE END IS NOT YET." Jesus was not yet talking about the end. He was talking about the church age.

The wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes and pestilences begin right then, and have been taking place all through the church age, but the earthquakes are increasing in frequency. 

This agrees perfectly with John in Revelation, showing us that the first seal was opened right after Jesus ascended and took the book.

If people really read what is written, they would find that the horsemen on the red horse, the black horse and the pale horse ride together, while the rider on the white horse rides alone. He represents righteousness. The other three represent the opposite.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The fifth seal occurs during the Great Tribulation. For the 182nd time. The seals are not opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. The first four seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.

STOP! Quite pulling verses out of their context! The 5th seal is in the context of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals, and they are in the context of the 1st seal, and that is in the context of Jesus ascension and sending the Holy Spirit down, so around 32 AD. 

It seems SO MANY today try to "jump the gun" and arrive at the end while Jesus and John are in the church age. The church age does not end until just before the Day of the Lord begins.

Paul agrees with this, showing us the start of the Day of the Lord coming right after the rapture. I believe the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day. Some writers have said they are "back-to-back" events: the rapture, then the Day. 

People today should read Revelation AS IF they were early church people. From that perspective there will be 2000 years before the church age will end. The truth is, the first five seals cover that time. Jesus covered that time in Matthew 24, in the verses preceding verse 14.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

 The fifth seal take place during the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. The tribulation is over at that point and when the 7th seal is opened, the wrath of God can begin.

Anyone can imagine the bible says almost anything, and they try to prove it by pulling verses out of their context. Jesus did not arrive at "the great tribulation" until verse 15 of Matthew 24, where He arrived at the midpoint abomination of the 70th week. (Daniel 9:27 tells us an event that will stop the daily sacrifices will be the event that divides the week. He used the word "midst." It means to divide in half.

Where is the corresponding verses in Revelation? 

At first read, we could say it must be in chapters 11, 12, and 13 for these three chapters all include COUNTDOWNS from the midpoint to the end of the week. They are all, therefore, MIDPOINT chapters. Can we get any closer to the exact midpoint? Yes.

Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they SEE the abomination. We find that fleeing beginning in Revelation 12:6. That verse, therefore, is only seconds after the division point of the 70th week or "tribulation." The actual abomination will take place in chapter 11.

Since Revelation 12:6 is found IN our midpoint chapters, we have agreement and confirmation.

Quote

 The fifth seal take place during the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24

This theory can't hold water. It leaks like a sieve, so to speak. We just showed proof that the midpoint of the week is in chapter 11. Jesus said that "THEN" shall be great tribulation. WHEN? After the abomination that will divide the week.

John then shows us that the beginning of the days of great tribulation cannot possibly come before the abomination, and said abomination is marked in chapter 11, a MIDPOINT chapter. Your theory then is only imagination. Scripture shows that the days of GT (great tribulation) cannot begin until after chapter 11. Is there further proof? Certainly there is.

John tells us what will CAUSE those days of GT: the Beast and False prophet will cause people to build and image and create a mark. Then they will FORCE people to bow to their image or lose their heads—or receive the mark or lose their heads.

God sends an angel to warn people that if they accept this mark, they will be doomed. Therefore GREAT PRESSURE (GT) will be put upon the people. Without the mark they cannot buy or sell, but if they take the mark, they will be doomed. 

WHERE in Revelation is this warning? It is on chapter 14. Therefore, the days of GT Jesus spoke of has NOT YET STARTED. Is there more proof? Certainly, there is.

IN chapter 15, John wrote of the murdered saints just then beginning to arrive in heaven. Therefore these verses show us that the days of GT only begin in Revelation late in chapter 14. Yet, people will imagination imagine the days of GT somewhere in the seals. 

Perhaps these people define "The Tribulation" as the ordinary tribulation we run into as members of the body of Christ. I think much of the Evangelical church world equates "the tribulation" as another way of saying, "the 70th Week.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Let me answer the three questions correctly so you can understand the vision.

1. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

Answer - It is a vision and I was not there at that time.

2. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Answer - It is a vision and I was not there at that time.

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4.

Answer - It is a vision and the Holy Spirit was in the throne room in that vision.

I am quite surprised that Jesus did not ask you this question so you would have understanding.

Question - If you think that you have correctly answered question 1,2 and 3 how is it that Revelation 1,2, and 3 are written to the 7 Churches that according to you cannot exist because according to you Jesus had not died yet and was not worthy until Revelation 5.

You are basing your thesis on incorrect information and conclusions. The seals are not opened and will not be open until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, because the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

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I was not there at that time.

In all of eternity past, before Christ came, and to include all of eternity future, as long as God lives, Even before "TIME" and after time, there has been only one SPEC of time when Jesus was not in the throne room, at the right hand of the Father. You are right, He was NOT there, because He left there to come to planet earth, to be born as a Virgin.

Quote

 

2. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Answer - It is a vision and I was not there at that time.

 

This search was made in heaven, on earth and UNDER the earth, meaning, in hell. Some people imagine Jesus just disappeared!

WRONG! He was not found worthy to take the book because He had not yet risen from the Dead! Soon after He rose from the dead, and was then found worthy in a subsequent search.

Quote

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4.

Answer - It is a vision and the Holy Spirit was in the throne room in that vision.

 

You get one part right on all of your answers: Yes, it is a vision. God is showing John EXACTLY what He wants John to see. John saw this vision somewhere around 95 AD. Yet, Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down. God is showing John that the TIMING of this part of the vision is BEFORE Jesus ascended. This was perhaps 60 years AFTER Jesus ascended.

This is confirmed because in chapter 5, Jesus DID ascend and DID send the Holy Spirit down. (Jesus asked me WHY the Holy Spirit was there, not IF He was there.)

To answer your question, God CHANGED DIRECTIONS in the vision, in Rev. 4:1. That is why John wrote, after the fact, "after this" or "after these things." John was showing the readers that God changed directions. Chapters 2 and 3 are about God dictating messages to seven church. That was a NOW part of the vision. John of course knew about these churches. Tradition tells us he was the apostle over these churches. 

After that, God wanted to begin showing John a walk through time. He wanted to introduce John to the scroll, sealed with seals. God CHOSE to begin that part of the vision while the scroll was still in the FAther's hand. Since Jesus TOOK the scroll as soon as He ascended, God HAD to begin this part of the vision BEFORE Jesus ascended.

God CHOSE to show the timing of this part of the vision by showing John a throne room with Jesus NOT SEEN, a search for one worthy that ended in failure, and the Holy Spirit still there. The average reader would expect Jesus ALWAYS worthy to take the book, but they would be mistaken.

The average believer would expect the Holy Spirit already sent down, for this was perhaps 60 years after Jesus ascended. Since there are over a dozen verses showing that Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father, the average believer would expect Jesus to be there and be SEEN at the right hand of the Father.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal. See Matthew 24. The world will see Jesus in the clouds at the 6th seal.

Paul tells us that Jesus returns (ONLY to the air) just before the start of the Day of the Lord, so it would be just before the 6th seal. 

This coming is not shown in Matthew 24. The Gentile church of today was still a MYSTERY hidden in the FAther. Jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THIER age. 

Paul gives us NO HINT that the world will see Jesus at the rapture event.

Jesus coming as Jesus told it, parallels Jesus coming in Revelation 19, which is after the tribulation of those days.

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Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal. See Matthew 24 

 

"Neither the twain shall meet." (Matthew 24 does not cover the rapture."

Aligning the gathering of Matthew 24 with the rapture is nothing but MYTH.