Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 5:38 PM, not an echo said:

I have several thoughts concerning your reply Diaste, and it is a long one.  To kinda help us keep our bearings, I have did some indicating with some colored asterisks *.  First of all, I'm not sure I'm getting you with your following three statements.  I believe you are contradicting yourself by what you say in the last one.  Moreover, your first two are seriously out of harmony with Scripture.

**The 6th seal does not have Jesus appearance listed.**

**Notice in Rev 6:15-17 no one says they see Him.**

**Rev 6 does say Jesus arrives.**

 

This is the whole paragraph:

"Then in Rev 6:15-17 the people of all walks of life are lamenting His coming, based on what they just saw in Rev 6:12-14. **Rev 6 does say Jesus arrives.** All we know is the signs occur and a really big shaking. The people who want the rocks to bury them are asking for that based on what they just witnessed and felt, the signs of His coming. "

What you highlighted is an obvious typo as the rest of the paragraph is clearly saying the opposite. That and everything else I have said before and throughout the reply also makes clear that I do not see Jesus arrival at the 6th seal but only the portents of His arrival.

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first paragraph, I didn't know for sure if you had some angle on "arrives" versus "appearance" or "see."

Concerning both paragraphs, there is an important distinction to be made between appearance and arrival.  Concisely, Jesus speaks of His appearance in Matthew 24:29-31 (even to the end of the chapter), which occurs with the opening of the 6th Seal and what attends it (Rev. 6:12-7:17, esp. 6:15-16).  He speaks of His arrival in Matthew 24:26-28, which occurs during the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet and what attends it (Rev. 11:15-20:15, esp. 19:11-21).

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 5:38 PM, not an echo said:

 

My next thought concerns this statement: ***This is 7th trump language, not 6th seal language. So at the 6th seal we have the portent of His arrival, at the 7th Trump we have His actual arrival.***  If so, then by your own admission, you have left no time for the pouring out of the vials of the wrath of God.  By your admission in the previous post I just responded to, that the rapture, the resurrection, and the 2nd Advent all happen in a "twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:52), it seems to me that you have got yourself in a corner.

But I don't see the pouring out of the vials as connected to the 6th seal. I am not yet convinced the 7 trumps must follow the seventh seal. And based on Joel the trumps have a concurrent relationship with the seals. So there doesn't need to be a gap of any kind between the 6th seal and the 7th trump. Joel tells us all the green grass is burned up at the same time the temple rituals are no longer happening. The meat and drink offering is cut off from the house of God and all the grass is gone. This is near to the time when the day of the Lord is going to take place.

That would mean the 1st trump has been fulfilled when the midpoint has been reached. This is solid support for the successive/concurrent relationship of the seals and trumps.

Concerning your first sentence, "But I don't see the pouring out of the vials as connected to the 6th seal,"  yet later, in this same post, you say, "Literally the 6th seal and the 7th trump BOTH describe AN IDENTICAL EVENT from two vantage points. One is the pov of the people of earth, one from the pov of those in heaven. It's not too hard to see this" (caps and underline mine).  Then you ask me, "How do you ignore that?"  Diaste, on 9-11-01, the world watched what happened with the World Trade Centers.  The point of view of some was ground zero.  The point of view of some was across the bay.  The point of view of some was from Wyoming and Kentucky, on their television sets.  THAT event was one and the same.  The separate events of the opening of the 6th Seal and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet do NOT add up to "AN IDENTICAL EVENT from two vantage points."

Concerning the second sentence of your first paragraph, "I am not yet convinced the 7 trumps must follow the seventh seal,"  I've been waiting a long time for you to tell me what it is that you think follows the 7th Seal.

Concerning your appeal once again to chapter one of Joel's prophecy, you keep saying that based on it, "the trumps have a concurrent relationship with the seals" and then you try to fit a puzzle piece of Joel's chapter one prophecy here, because one side of the piece mentions "green grass being burned up" and things arguably not related to the temple services of Daniel's 70th Week at all.  I don't see how you can persist in making so much out of so little and so little out of so much.

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 5:38 PM, not an echo said:

My next thought concerns these statements: ****"Here Jesus tells me He has not yet arrived as after the 6th seal the SIGN of the Son of Man appears in heaven and then the tribe of the earth mourn, just like in Rev 6:15-17. But to this point they have not seen Jesus appear, only His SIGN and then the tribes mourn.**** and ****So then the 6th seal is the portent of His coming and His actual appearance is associated with clouds, a voice, and a trumpet. And this happens rapidly and in quick succession, in the space of maybe a 1/2 hour, or quicker. The 6th seal and 7th trump are happening at nearly the same time.****

What you say concerning the "portent" or sign of His coming is the appearance of "THE SIGN OF...

THE SON OF MAN...

...IN HEAVEN" (Matt. 24:30).  The sign they are seeing IS the "Son of man in heaven."

If we take Jesus' words as spoken, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn." we see the mourning of all the tribes of earth occurs when the sign of the Son of Man happens. It's right there. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, ". This is the sign only, not Jesus visible arrival, then: "and all the tribes of the earth will mourn." This isn't the tribes of earth seeing Jesus and mourning, it's the tribes of earth seeing the sign and offering up a great lament. Then Jesus says "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." So after the sign and the mourning they see Jesus visibly come with the clouds and the angels.

This parallels Rev 6 exactly without the arrival by the Lord;

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

There is no mention of a visible arrival here. It's just about to happen as it states in Matt 24; the sign causes the mourning, then they will see Jesus. The visible arrival is stated in Rev 11 and Rev 19. Now it can be construed that the 6th seal is His arrival as it's all happening rapidly but that is not is stated precisely. And since it is all stated precisely and there's no wiggle room or cause for inference in this, then it amounts to gap filling when the gap is already filled. 

So in order: The Sign, the mourning, Jesus visible arrival.

In your reply, I have put your uses of "mourning" in bold, and did some underlining.  Just kind of curious concerning what you have said about the timing of the mourning (from your point of view) and what is said in Zechariah 12:10.  Also, you always say arrival, which skews the concept of THE APPEARANCE of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 5:38 PM, not an echo said:

My next thought concerns this statement: ****You create the division by placing the 7th trump well down the road of time far from the 6th seal.****  No Diaste, you create a connection where there is a great division, IMHO.

Literally the 6th seal and the 7th trump both describe an identical event from two vantage points. One is the pov of the people of earth, one from the pov of those in heaven. It's not too hard to see this. 

How do you ignore that?

And this?

"

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world

has become the kingdom of our Lord

and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.”

" At the 7th trump the kingdom of the world now belongs to Jesus.

And this?

The nations were enraged,c

and Your wrath has come.

The time has come to judge the deadd

and to reward Your servants the prophets,

as well as the saints and those who fear Your name,

both small and great—

and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

This is wrath come down from above, just as the tribes of earth anticipated at the 6th seal. So unless wrath happens twice then the 6th seal and the 7th trump are the same wrath and one is the portent of that wrath and the other the visible arrival of the one administering that wrath, and both occur in near proximity.

Concerning your last six words, if I have understood you recently, don't you mean like "twinkling of an eye" proximity???  Seems like to me that about the best that can be done with the sum of your interpretations is maybe a post 6th Vial rapture and Second Coming of Christ.

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 5:38 PM, not an echo said:

Finally, my last thought concerns your last two statements: "So the loud trump, the trump of God, the last trump and the 7th trump are all the same as each various description is associated with the gathering and Jesus arrival.  Unless you are saying there are multiple arrivals of Jesus and multiple gatherings of the elect."  All I have said is what Jesus taught and said.  The disciples asked Him what "THE SIGN" of His Second Coming would be (Matt. 24:3).  Jesus replied to this specific question with what He said in verses 29-31, and we have been in agreement that this is the event of the opening of the 6th Seal.  But, you deny that Jesus is seen here.  Again, I must ask you:  What do you think the world is seeing that is inspiring them to say, "Hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16)?  They are not seeing an alien, and I don't know of any celestial signs that would inspire these particular words.  Rather, Jesus speaks specifically about the signs that will attend this event, and then He speaks about the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).

I do not deny Jesus is seen at the time of Matt 24:29-31. He is. I'm saying the verse tells us the Sign happens, then the mourning, then Jesus is seen. Scripture doesn't say what the Sign is. You apply the visible return of Jesus to the Sign. I do not. I see nothing in 29-31 requiring this. Matt 24:30 says the people mourn when they see the SIGN, not when they see Jesus visibly. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn." They mourn based on seeing the SIGN. To me the Sign is probably the sky receding as in Rev 6:14. It's not mentioned in Matt 24:29-31 and that would be a shocking event to all. 

It's not true they must SEE Jesus in order to know wrath is coming. When the workings of the cosmos are shut down and the sky recedes and all the mountains are leveled and the islands sink they are gong to know what's happening, Maybe it's because they see the Son of Man, but it's doesn't have to be. Even if the world is in denial about Jesus and the surety of His return doesn't mean the world is ignorant of it. 

What else are they going to think when the sun goes out, the moon goes dark, the stars fall, the mountains fall and every city too and, the islands are gone? Yeah, they are going to have to finally admit the creator is real, He's angry, and He's just about to show up and throw down.

Concerning your opening statements, "I do not deny Jesus is seen at the time of Matt 24:29-31. He is. I'm saying the verse tells us the Sign happens, then the mourning, then Jesus is seen. Scripture doesn't say what the Sign is. You apply the visible return of Jesus to the Sign. I do not. I see nothing in 29-31 requiring this",  I must say similarly again:  I don't know how you can make so little out of so much and so much out of so little.

Also, to clarify some because of our difference in concepts, I apply the visible appearance of Jesus to the Sign, not His return, except perhaps in the sense of His return for the saved.

Later in your first paragraph, you say, "To me the Sign is 'probably' the sky receding as in Rev 6:14. It's not mentioned in Matt 24:29-31 and that would be a shocking event to all."  To me, the Sign is not "probably" anything, it is "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN."  Diaste, I think here I'm going to have to talk kinda like you do for a second:  "I'm just going to go with what Jesus said."

Now, I have often thought that when the sky recedes (i.e., "as a scroll when it is rolled together"/Rev. 6:14), it will be at this time that the world will see or glimpse "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN" and say the following to the mountains: "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."  I believe they are seeing, or glimpsing the Lamb at the right hand of the Father.  And, the countenance of neither is going to be reflecting grace.  Then He will be gone, and a lot more with Him.

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

What else are they going to think when the sun goes out, the moon goes dark, the stars fall, the mountains fall and every city too and, the islands are gone? Yeah, they are going to have to finally admit the creator is real, He's angry, and He's just about to show up and throw down.

Why are you thinking they would think this?  With the mentality of our modern God rejecting world, wouldn't they be more likely to attribute it to something else, like, ANYTHING ELSE BUT SOME "GOD"?  Many already believe that everything got its start just because.  They might even think that it's because of something Russia is doing, or China, or some other rogue nation(s).  Perhaps even the result of something nuclear.  Or, worse than that, that long anticipated visit from our not-so-friendly neighbors that dwell somewhere out there in the cosmos.

On 8/5/2021 at 5:01 AM, Diaste said:

So, excuse the typos and rely on the concepts, please. I have said the same thing often enough to the point it would be hard to misunderstand.

I'm still trying to download your concepts.  And, sometimes, I wish I was misunderstanding you.

[not an echo]

On 8/5/2021 at 6:07 PM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 2:29 AM, not an echo said:

Just for clarification, your statement is in support of Leonardo's answer to the question, "Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?"

If it is as you think, I guess that means we might as well hang it up and hunker down.  Ain't no comfort to be had in any kind of deliverance from anything, other than maybe a day or two at the very end.  With everything that is going to be happening with the opening of the seals (according to your concept) and the sounding of the trumpets (well, JUST the first six!), by the time that the 7th Trumpet is sounded, there may not be but about eight of us left.  Just think Diaste, if we make it that far, if it's any consolation, we'll miss the bad part.

There is a great deliverance from the war against the beast and the wrath of God. You make the mistake of equating the 70th week with great tribulation and, the 7th week with GT and wrath. This is not the case. Wrath only comes at the end of the week and GT is from the midpoint up to when Jesus returns to mete out wrath on the rebels. It's not the deliverance your congregation has come to expect, I get that; but it is a great deliverance! Do you really think God meant He was going to deliver His people from traffic jams, barking dogs at 2 am, the nosy neighbor and the bad boss and his overbearing assistant? 

The rest of what you say is emotional pleading and has no bearing on the facts. 

Where do you get that "GT is from the midpoint..."?

Also, if the last sentence of your first paragraph makes you feel any better about your position Diaste, I guess you might as well go on and say it---I'll suffer you.  Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation" (Jn. 16:33).  I don't think He was talking about the sort of things you said.  Peter said, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened unto you" (I Pet. 4:12).  Paul said similarly.  I'm talking about tribulation like they talked about, that God's children have experienced throughout the Christian era---from a worldwide and historical perspective.  I submit that if the trials you experience are limited to traffic jams, barking dogs at 2 am, noisy neighbors, and bad bosses with overbearing assistants, Wyoming might place first as the best place to live on earth.

Concerning your last sentence, does what you say and how you say it have any bearing on the facts?

You know, I'm kinda bothered at the moment as I sit before my computer.  It almost seems like that for me to reply in an equal way to your posts involves my replies taking on the appearance of fussing.  I don't have much time for fussing.  My goal has been to prayerfully discuss and clarify in hopes that we can all come to a better understanding.  That remains my goal, though sometimes I feel I may come short.  Perhaps that is the way it is for both of us Diaste.  We are both human.  I would just like to express afresh that the main thing is that we are both ready---come what may.  Well, I didn't mean to leave out the rest of the forum family.  My prayer would be that we are ALL ready---come what may.  And for me, our readiness involves knowing Jesus Christ as our Savior and always following Him as our Lord.

Edited March 28, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

4 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Justin,

The definition of apocryphal is "of doubtful authenticity."  Is this what you are believing about The Revelation of Jesus Christ?

That is not the meaning. Try again and read your revisionist and reformist history.

That will take you some time, so get back with me when you have learned all that please. 

Hello Justin,

That was just a direct quote from my old Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.  The whole definition is listed exactly as follows:  1 often cap : of or resembling the Apocrypha  2 : of doubtful authenticity : SPURIOUS  syn  see FICTITIOUS

Really, I was just wondering if you believe The Revelation is the Word of God.  That anyone in the forum family would call it "apocryphal" surprised me.  Am I missing something?

Did my question offend you?  I didn't mean for it to.  I guess it would probably bother me a little if someone thought that I was questioning The Revelation as being the Word of God.  But, I would quickly reassure anyone concerning this.  I wholeheartedly believe that The Revelation is the Word of God!

I guess you've left me still wondering, "Do you believe that The Revelation is the Word of God?"

[not an echo]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

What is it about what I stated that you are not agreeing with?  Also, I'm not sure if our understanding of your last sentence is the same, but I agree with your statement, "Paul associates the rapture with the day of the Lord and not some earlier time."

In II Thessalonians 2:2, Paul wrote, "the day of Christ (Christos)" and I think there is an important distinction to be noted here.  Paul had spoke to them about "the day of the Lord (kurios)" in his previous letter (I Thess. 5:2).  He is speaking in reference to something a little different here, in his second letter.

This isn't accurate:

"In II Thessalonians 2:2, Paul wrote, "the day of Christ (Christos)" and I think there is an important distinction to be noted here.  Paul had spoke to them about "the day of the Lord (kurios)" in his previous letter "

Paul said in 2 Thess 2:5..."Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?" Paul is referencing a time when he was with the Thessalonians, not a previous letter.

I didn't say anything at odds with II Thessalonians 2:5 Diaste.  I merely said the following: "Paul HAD SPOKE TO THEM about "the day of the Lord (kurios)" IN HIS PREVIOUS LETTER (I Thess. 5:2).  He is speaking in reference to something a little different HERE, IN HIS SECOND LETTER."

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "There is a time time called birth pangs; this is not tribulation or wrath",  what is it about "birth pangs" that you think is "not tribulation"?

Mainly because Jesus makes the distinction. You see, I'm not smarter than Him. I don't have His vision. I don't have His power to make His vision and words come to pass. Only He has that power. Since I trust Him completely and want to know what He is saying I listen. When He says 'birth pangs' I don't define that as tribulation since tribulation is 'thlipsis' and birth pangs is 'odin'. And not only that but Jesus says it's not just tribulation but it's 'megas thlipsis'. The words are not the same, the definitions are not the same and the concepts are not the same.

Of course, the word odin is not the word thlipsis, but when did odin cease to be thlipsis?  Said in English, the word sorrows (Matt. 24:8/KJV) is not the word tribulation (Matt. 24:21/KJV), but when did sorrows cease to be tribulation?  Or, when did birth pangs cease to be tribulation?  The word persecution is not the word tribulation either, but when did persecution cease to be tribulation?

Interestingly, megas thlipsis ("great tribulation"/Matt. 24:21) is also what Joseph's family was going through in Canaan when they came to him in Egypt seeking corn ("great affliction"/Acts 7:11).  According to Jesus, what will differentiate the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week from any other time of great tribulation is that the tribulation then will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning "There is the A of D; this is not tribulation or wrath",  are you thinking that when the A of D is manifested that this is not going to be a time of tribulation?

I didn't say that. I'm making a distinction in the definition of terms. Clearly the text says megas thlipsis follows 'bdelugma erémósis'. And it's not 'tribulation', it's great tribulation. 

OK, so let me reword my statement just a little bit:  Are you thinking that when the 'bdelugma erémósis' (A of D) is manifested that this is not going to be a time of 'megas thlipsis' (great tribulaton)?

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning the rest of your statements beginning with "There is now, only after the A of D at the midpoint, the time of GT",  for me, your understanding concerning the GT (Great Tribulation) is obscuring a proper understanding of Daniel's 70th Week.

Well, you certainly would.

My position easily stands.  If megas thlipsis describes what Joseph's family was going through in Canaan when they came to him in Egypt seeking corn ("great affliction"/Acts 7:11), then it is surely going to be megas thlipsis when the seals (according to your concept) start being opened and the trumpets start being blown---don't you think?  And, don't forget, according to Jesus, it will escalate to a degree "such as was not since the beginning of the world" to that time, "nor will ever be" (Matt. 24:21).

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Concisely, I see the period of the Day of the Lord as beginning the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, but later--- that same day---with the opening of the 7th Seal.  This is a very important and logical understanding, which is in harmony with all of Scripture.  The fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week will not begin until at least five months later (Rev. 9:5, 10), maybe longer (Rev. 9:15).  There is no indication that Daniel's 70th Week has begun until after the "little book" is seen "open" (Rev. 10), which is the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  The first clear evidence that Daniel's 70th Week has begun is in Revelation 11:1-3 (even vs. 1/compare II Thess. 2:4 and Matt. 24:15).  Expressed and understood in a way that will harmonize with all of Scripture, the period of the Day of the Lord will be characterized by great tribulation, and will include God's wrath.

I think it's all more in harmony with your take on the end of the age prophecies. The fact you hold to dispensational views lead you to the error of pretrib and after that it's mostly forced interpretations molded to fit a doctrine and not doctrine based on the concepts of what is written. 

I heard all those pretribbers in the 70's to today talk about 'harmonizing the scriptures'. That plays well with the lazy sheep but it won't pass muster when there is no harmonizing with ALL scripture.

There is nothing that I have written that is out of harmony with all of Scripture.  If there is, I would like to be informed of that, not some falsehood concerning "dispensational views" and what "those pretribbers in the 70's" called "harmonizing the scriptures" that you would like to apply to me.  And, I'm not in the "lazy sheep" category.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

I am not quite sure how you fit "Depends on the level of spiritual maturity" with Paul's words to them, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thess. 4:18) and "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do" (I Thess. 5:11) and "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled..." (II Thess. 2:1-2).  Seems to me that if they were going to be facing the particular things that he is reassuring them concerning, words like "Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might" (Eph. 6:10) would have been much more fitting.

It's the difference between the saving of the flesh and the saving of the soul. God is about saving the soul and is concerned with the flesh. Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is a huge leap spiritually to live this truth. It's one thing to repeat it and another to realize it in ones being.

I've thought on what you are saying, but I haven't found anything that really speaks to what you evidently think I have said in error.

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

I've got to say Diaste, that your words, "I'm concerned about running afoul of the Most High God and missing out on life eternal" is concerning to me.  Seems to me that if such was a valid mentality for a born-again child of God, the Lord would take you on before you failed in such a way.  I've often thought that if our eternal destiny rode on the kind of security reflected by your statement, the best thing that could happen to anyone after they get saved is that they die---real quick.

Bah! That's not what I meant and you know it. 

Sorry Diaste, what you say is not the case at all.  I don't understand what's behind your reply.  It seems to me by what you are saying that you at least have a concept of a concern "about running afoul of the Most High God" and the possibility of losing your salvation.  The way you stated it, it kind of gave me shivers to think of God possibly eyeballing any of His children (even you) over the thing of any of them possibly running afoul of Him.  Again, if such were a possibility, why would the Father not take His child home before he or she failed Him in such a way?  Or, why would He for some of His children, and not others?

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Where do you get this, "That is what Paul was referring to. The Thessalonians were afraid they missed the gathering and were in the wrath of the Lamb that follows GT and the single moment of the gathering of the elect"?

It isn't clear from 2 Thess 2:1-2?

Where do you get that they were afraid that they had "missed the gathering"?  And, where do you get that they were afraid that they were "in the wrath of the Lamb that follows GT"?

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

Regarding your last paragraph, you say, "The assurance is that the Coming of Jesus and the gathering is preceded by clear events everyone will see."  Your understanding, as I see it, would "let the cat out of the bag" FOR THE WORLD concerning when the thief will come---something a thief would never do.  In connection with your overall understanding, you have the gathering preceded by your concept of what the seals represent, plus the sounding of six trumpets, two of which are woes, not to mention the minute details (Rev. 11:3-13), right up until the time when the 7th Trumpet will be sounded (vss. 14-15).  Moreover, all of this is almost, if not altogether, the same as having the flood about over before Noah gets on the ark.  Or, Lot and his family having to dodge brimstone and fire.

Now this is funny stuff! It's called denial. If that isn't clear from the reaction of the people of the people of the world in Rev 6:15-17 then I can't make it any more clear.

Like when Noah was building the ark. 100 years the people saw him build. They denied in their spirit what they plainly saw. 

Your take is that nothing will occur the people will see, or hear for that matter.

You really think the mark of the beast isn't manifested in real time and all the people take the mark and that isn't an obvious sign of the impending doom at the day of the Lord? There isn't a person alive who hasn't heard of the mark of the beast. They take it to survive and are simply in denial about the ramifications. It's not that they don't know, it's a chosen oblivious state of mind. 

It's only "funny stuff" to you, and in your opinion "denial" because you don't understand my interpretation that the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and the rapture (Matt. 24:31) is going to precede His Second Coming by seven plus years.  There is not going to be any "clear events everyone will see" that will precede the day of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture.  Moreover, the celestial signs of which Jesus spoke (Matt. 24:29) and John wrote (Rev. 6:12-14) are a part of that event.

Concerning your second paragraph, all that the people in Noah's day "plainly saw" was Noah building the ark Diaste.  That's all they saw!  They didn't see anything of the coming flood of which he had long warned them and warned them.  Well, they didn't see any of it till they did---and then it was too late.  The situation then parallels the situation now.

Concerning your last paragraph, we can rightly suppose that this is the way it will be for some, but what about the world over, among all the Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists?  And what of what Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:

 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

18 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2021 at 1:10 AM, not an echo said:

The biggest problem with an understanding that the 7th Trumpet is the Last Trump or Trump of God of which Paul spoke or the great sound of a trumpet of which Jesus spoke is that this understanding makes for nothing but a problem---IMHO.

 

Yes. It's a big problem. Not for me though.

Then, these questions should be no problem...

#1---What is it that does come after the opening of the 7th Seal?

#2---Again, what all is it that you have happening in "a twinkling of an eye"?

#3---Just preceding the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, how is it that scoffers will be able to scoff these words:  "Where is the promise of His coming?  for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning" (II Pet. 3:4)?

#4---What do you do with Matthew 24:26-28 in relation to what Jesus says afterward (vss. 29-51), in your "strict chronology" of His Olivet Discourse?

#5---If the unsaved world is not seeing "the Face of Him that sitteth on the Throne, and...the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), what in the world would they be seeing that would cause them to say what they are saying???

[not an echo]

On 8/6/2021 at 4:32 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/4/2021 at 4:07 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Still doing some catching up.  Shouldn't be long now.

I was genuinely curious about what your position would be on this, as I didn't know how your interpretations could be consistent with Scripture and deny the "twinkling of an eye" element.  Now my question is, "How do you reconcile, with your view, all that happens from its sounding (the 7th Trumpet/Rev. 11:15-19) with what we see in the chapters following, through to the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15)?

I don't assume it's chronological, for one. Parts of the Revelation are chronological but it's  not written as a chronological timeline from 1-22. For instance, the coming of the Lord in 19:11-16 would have to fit in at the 6th seal and the 7th trump. What we are seeing in Rev 19 is the fuller vision of the Coming of the Lord where in Rev 6:12-17 we are seeing the same hours and minutes and perhaps a day or two[I don't have any insight to how long precisely] as we are seeing in Rev 11:15-19 from two vantage points; earth and heaven. 

Placing a description of the Coming of the Lord in either of those two places isn't required as we know from the events of the 6th seal and the 7th trump the Lord is about to arrive, and then does. Rev 19:11-16 is the vision of His glorious appearing in power and might and majesty. Placing this elsewhere would diminish this grand vision of the coming marvelous deliverance of the people, and the destruction of the rebels. 

Honestly Revelation's form and construction is pure genius. There is either a simple complexity or a complex simplicity to the book that's completely amazing. 

I learned long ago that seals came first, then the trumps came out of the 7th seal, then out of the 7th trump came the vials of wrath. None of that fits well with the descriptions in Revelation itself. Joel gives us clues to the timing of some of the events in that he describes all the green grass burned up at the time the A of D has occurred. This would mean the 1st trump has sounded at the time of the 5th seal.

Or even if you don't hold to that idea one still must apply Joel 1 to the end of the age and Joel 1 must fit seamlessly into Revelation and the Olivet Discourse. Joel records the nearness of the day of the Lord and the and the already occurred A of D and the fact the grass is gone and the trees burned near to that Day, and before that Day.

This one chapter throws any strictly chronological rendering of Revelation into sheer chaos. 

Concerning your statement in your first paragraph, "For instance, the coming of the Lord in 19:11-16 would have to fit in at the 6th seal and the 7th trump",  this interpretation is not in accord with your position that Jesus' Olivet Discourse is in strict chronological order.  That position would have Jesus' Second Advent (Matt. 24:26-28) happening before the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-51), not to mention the other celestial signs.

Concerning your last three paragraphs, you continue to lean on Joel 1, and it is just a one-sided fit with a piece in the "last days" prophetic puzzle---where it doesn't even belong.

Now, in your third paragraph, where you say, "Honestly Revelation's form and construction is pure genius. There is either a simple complexity or a complex simplicity to the book that's completely amazing",  I'm in full agreement.  Only thing is, this attribute of The Revelation is much more apparent with my interpretations, especially in the area of its chronological order.  See again my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/

Or my thread, A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/

Or my thread, The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251871-the-revelation-is-our-god-given-prophetic-grid/

Edited March 28, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement in your first paragraph, "For instance, the coming of the Lord in 19:11-16 would have to fit in at the 6th seal and the 7th trump",  this interpretation is not in accord with your position that Jesus' Olivet Discourse is in strict chronological order.  That position would have Jesus' Second Coming (Matt. 24:26-28) happening before the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-51), not to mention the other celestial signs.

Why? I never said that. Matt 24:29 is the same signs as Rev 6:12-14. Jesus doesn't arrive at these signs, His arrival is only impending. Then in Matt 24:30, after the signs in the heavens, it is said 'they will see' Jesus. There is no issue in the timeline here. 

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last three paragraphs, you continue to lean on Joel 1, and it is just a one-sided fit with a piece in the "last days" prophetic puzzle---where it doesn't even belong.

I suppose not. The plain language of Joel speaking about the nearness of the day of the Lord and the meat and drink offering being cut off from the house of the God is in no way similar to the end of the age. ¡

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Now, in your third paragraph, where you say, "Honestly Revelation's form and construction is pure genius. There is either a simple complexity or a complex simplicity to the book that's completely amazing",  I'm in full agreement.  Only thing is, this attribute of The Revelation is much more apparent with my interpretations, especially in the area of its chronological order.  See again my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/

Or my thread, A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/

Or my thread, The Revelation Is Our God Given Prophetic Grid:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251871-the-revelation-is-our-god-given-prophetic-grid/

 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

I didn't say anything at odds with II Thessalonians 2:5 Diaste.  I merely said the following: "Paul HAD SPOKE TO THEM about "the day of the Lord (kurios)" IN HIS PREVIOUS LETTER (I Thess. 5:2).  He is speaking in reference to something a little different HERE, IN HIS SECOND LETTER."

I have seen many reference to some previous letter Paul was supposedly talking about in 2 Thess 2:5. The truth is Paul didn't write in any letter when he is iterating to the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1-5; he was with them and told them personally.

A previous letter is cited to prove a position when that previous letter does not exist in relation to 2 Thess 2:1-5. There is no reference by Paul to a previous letter when it comes to 2 Thess 2:1-8. 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, the word odin is not the word thlipsis, but when did odin cease to be thlipsis?  Said in English, the word sorrows (Matt. 24:8/KJV) is not the word tribulation (Matt. 24:21/KJV), but when did sorrows cease to be tribulation?  Or, when did birth pangs cease to be tribulation?  The word persecution is not the word tribulation either, but when did persecution cease to be tribulation?

This is pure sophistry. Stay in the word and listen. When did a car cease to be a horse and buggy? I can do it too and it's meaningless.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

 According to Jesus, what will differentiate the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week from any other time of great tribulation is that the tribulation then will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

Yes.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

OK, so let me reword my statement just a little bit:  Are you thinking that when the 'bdelugma erémósis' (A of D) is manifested that this is not going to be a time of 'megas thlipsis' (great tribulaton)?

When did I ever say anything to prompt such a query? You know that's not my position. Below are the words of Jesus:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Clearly GT begins with the A of D. Not before, after. When we see the A of D GT begins. That's what 'For at that time...' means.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

My position easily stands.  If megas thlipsis describes what Joseph's family was going through in Canaan when they came to him in Egypt seeking corn ("great affliction"/Acts 7:11), then it is surely going to be megas thlipsis when the seals (according to your concept) start being opened and the trumpets start being blown---don't you think?  And, don't forget, according to Jesus, it will escalate to a degree "such as was not since the beginning of the world" to that time, "nor will ever be" (Matt. 24:21).

What's the connection? It's not 'surely' going to be anything other than what and when as the Lord has said. I never said there was any connection to GT and any emblematic symbol. I don't connect any seal or trump with GT. At best I have tried to place occurrence in proximity to event when the evidence is there. I don't rationalize through self talk to get my way in my own mind about how I think it's going to be. 

There is only what Jesus said.

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’...

...For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

"Only when we see the A of D does GT occur. That's at the midpoint. One can place two millennia before or after that if they wish. One can read corn or deserts or seals and trumps into it if the wish. What cannot be changed is GT 'such as was not nor ever will be again' in relation to the end of the age only occurs after the A of D; and no connection exists here to any seal or trump.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

There is nothing that I have written that is out of harmony with all of Scripture.  If there is, I would like to be informed of that, not some falsehood concerning "dispensational views" and what "those pretribbers in the 70's" called "harmonizing the scriptures" that you would like to apply to me.  And, I'm not in the "lazy sheep" category.

I have heard it many times. Some author claims 'harmony' of the scriptures and at the same time says other takes do not 'harmonize' the scriptures. This is a way of saying, "Don't bother to look, we have harmony." and the lazy sheep never bother to check they just keep their head down and fill their bellies. It's not proof of anything in other words. It's a catch phrase and  sloganeering.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

I've thought on what you are saying, but I haven't found anything that really speaks to what you evidently think I have said in error.

I'm not surprised.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Sorry Diaste, what you say is not the case at all.  I don't understand what's behind your reply.  It seems to me by what you are saying that you at least have a concept of a concern "about running afoul of the Most High God" and the possibility of losing your salvation.  The way you stated it, it kind of gave me shivers to think of God possibly eyeballing any of His children (even you) over the thing of any of them possibly running afoul of Him.  Again, if such were a possibility, why would the Father not take His child home before he or she failed Him in such a way?  Or, why would He for some of His children, and not others?

None can discern the mind of God. The rhetorical nature of the propositions above is once again taking the place of solid fact based arguments and bogs down the discussion. Ever seen this?

"You wicked, lazy servant!’ replied his master. ‘You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27Then you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received it back with interest." 

Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

"

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

So yeah. You bet I don't want to be like one of the above examples. Twisting His words is not going to get a pass either.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Where do you get that they were afraid that they had "missed the gathering"?  And, where do you get that they were afraid that they were "in the wrath of the Lamb that follows GT"?

If you can't see Paul is giving assurance specifically in what he addresses then I can't convince you either.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

It's only "funny stuff" to you, and in your opinion "denial" because you don't understand my interpretation that the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and the rapture (Matt. 24:31) is going to precede His Second Coming by seven plus years.  There is not going to be any "clear events everyone will see" that will precede the day of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture.  Moreover, the celestial signs of which Jesus spoke (Matt. 24:29) and John wrote (Rev. 6:12-14) are a part of that event.

Wrong. I do understand it. I reject your conclusions. Already found dispensationalism to be wanting and pretrib unsupported many years ago. 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, all that the people in Noah's day "plainly saw" was Noah building the ark Diaste.  That's all they saw!  They didn't see anything of the coming flood of which he had long warned them and warned them.  Well, they didn't see any of it till they did---and then it was too late.  The situation then parallels the situation now.

Nah. It's just like Eve in the garden. She knew she just denied it. Same dynamic today. Worse really is the fact God walked with Eve. She saw Jesus and denied what He said in favor of her desires. If she was not immune to denial of the truth the world is far less immune. Everyone knows. "Where is the promise of His coming?" They know.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last paragraph, we can rightly suppose that this is the way it will be for some, but what about the world over, among all the Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists?  And what of what Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:

 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What's the lie? Do you know? Very important idea here.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Then, these questions should be no problem...

#1---What is it that does come after the opening of the 7th Seal?

#2---Again, what all is it that you have happening in "a twinkling of an eye"?

"When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." 

Um...silence in heaven? 

" We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

This will happen. I don't get it. That wasn't a trick question was it? 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

#3---Just preceding the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, how is it that scoffers will be able to scoff these words:  "Where is the promise of His coming?  for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning" (II Pet. 3:4)?

"Most importantly, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.a 4“Where is the promise of His coming?” they will ask. “Ever since our fathers fell asleep, everything continues as it has from the beginning of creation.”"

Just preceding? Peter makes no reference to a trump here. Why do you do this? Peter says, "in the last days scoffers will come". It's not preceding a trump just before or any time. 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

#4---What do you do with Matthew 24:26-28 in relation to what Jesus says afterward (vss. 29-51), in your "strict chronology" of His Olivet Discourse?

Parentheticals. You don't get that? Hmm...

This is the language of timeline as follows.[abbreviated text for emphasis]

15So when you see

 16then let those who 

 21For at that time 

23At that time,  

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

#5---If the unsaved world is not seeing "the Face of Him that sitteth on the Throne, and...the Lamb" (Rev. 6:16), what in the world would they be seeing that would cause them to say what they are saying???

Already explained. If in the last days scoffers will come and ask about the promise of His coming then obviously they know about the prophecy. From the Olivet discourse we know the A of D and the GT will occur before Jesus comes. That's at least two huge world changing events present as normal conditions of the earth. All people will see this. So when the people of earth see the A of D and the GT they will know the prophecies are being fulfilled.

Rev 6 does not say Jesus is seen. The people hide themselves based on the cataclysmic changes in the heavens and on the earth. 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Where do you get that "GT is from the midpoint..."?

Are you probing? Being facetious? I don't understand why you would ask this. I mean, dispensationalism is incorrect in profound fundamental truths, but not wrong about everything. This is well established across many denominations.

However...

Jesus says to look to Daniel the prophet for understanding of the A of D. In Daniel 9, 11 and 12 we see the A of D spoken of. In Dan 9, "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate"

"Midst" is, "half (76), half-tribe (1), half-tribe* (32), halfway (2), middle (6), midnight* (3), midst (2), two parts (1)"

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, if the last sentence of your first paragraph makes you feel any better about your position Diaste, I guess you might as well go on and say it---I'll suffer you.  Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation."  I don't think He was talking about the sort of things you said.  Peter said, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as though some strange thing happened unto you."  Paul said similarly.  I'm talking about tribulation like they talked about, that God's children have experienced throughout the Christian era---from a worldwide and historical perspective.  I submit that if the trials you experience are limited to traffic jams, barking dogs at 2 am, noisy neighbors, and bad bosses with overbearing assistants, Wyoming might place first as the best place to live on earth.

That is not what I was referring to. You twisted what I said.

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence, does what you say and how you say it have any bearing on the facts?

You know, I'm kinda bothered at the moment as I sit before my computer.  It almost seems like that for me to reply in an equal way to your posts involves my replies taking on the appearance of fussing.  I don't have much time for fussing. 

The sharpener must be harder than what is sharpened.

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

My goal has been to prayerfully discuss and clarify in hopes that we can all come to a better understanding.  That remains my goal, though sometimes I feel I may come short.  Perhaps that is the way it is for both of us Diaste.  We are both human.  I would just like to express afresh that the main thing is that we are both ready---come what may.  Well, I didn't mean to leave out the rest of the forum family.  My prayer would be that we are ALL ready---come what may.  And for me, our readiness involves knowing Jesus Christ as our Savior and always following Him as our Lord.

Amen.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first paragraph, I didn't know for sure if you had some angle on "arrives" versus "appearance" or "see."

Concerning both paragraphs, there is an important distinction to be made between appearance and arrival.  Concisely, Jesus speaks of His appearance in Matthew 24:29-31 (even to the end of the chapter), which occurs with the opening of the 6th Seal and what attends it (Rev. 6:12-7:17, esp. 6:15-16).  He speaks of His arrival in Matthew 24:26-28, which occurs during the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet and what attends it (Rev. 11:15-20:15, esp. 19:11-21).

Parenthetical. Jesus is telling whoever will listen that if people are saying He is here in some strange place, those people should not be believed. Jesus then contrasts what people are saying to what His coming will be like so there is no mistake as to when it happens, what it looks like or where He is. Matt 24:26-27 is not His arrival, it's a basic compare/contrast we all learned in 7th grade English.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your first sentence, "But I don't see the pouring out of the vials as connected to the 6th seal,"  yet later, in this same post, you say, "Literally the 6th seal and the 7th trump BOTH describe AN IDENTICAL EVENT from two vantage points. One is the pov of the people of earth, one from the pov of those in heaven. It's not too hard to see this" (caps and underline mine).  Then you ask me, "How do you ignore that?"  Diaste, on 9-11-01, the world watched what happened with the World Trade Centers.  The point of view of some was ground zero.  The point of view of some was across the bay.  The point of view of some was from Wyoming and Kentucky, on their television sets.  THAT event was one and the same.  The separate events of the opening of the 6th Seal and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet do NOT add up to "AN IDENTICAL EVENT from two vantage points."

Well that would be a fine comparison if the analogy was equivalent. It's not and the conclusion is rejected. 

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the second sentence of your first paragraph, "I am not yet convinced the 7 trumps must follow the seventh seal,"  I've been waiting a long time for you to tell me what it is that you think follows the 7th Seal.

Silence. 

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your appeal once again to chapter one of Joel's prophecy, you keep saying that based on it, "the trumps have a concurrent relationship with the seals" and then you try to fit a puzzle piece of Joel's chapter one prophecy here, because one side of the piece mentions "green grass being burned up" and things arguably not related to the temple services of Daniel's 70th Week at all.  I don't see how you can persist in making so much out of so little and so little out of so much.

This is more than a little dismissive. Arguably not? Provide the arguments. The last sentence is belittling. It's not a fact based anything, is personal opinion, and borders on ad hom. 

Once again I will abbreviate the text for clarity and emphasis.

Joel 1

"

9Grain and drink offerings have been cut off

from the house of the LORD;

10The field is ruined;

For the grain is destroyed,

because the harvest of the field has perished.

all the trees of the orchard—are withered.

 the grain and drink offerings

are withheld from the house of your God.

15Alas for the day!

For the Day of the LORD is near,

The herds wander in confusion

because they have no pasture.

Even the flocks of sheep are suffering.

for fire has consumed the open pastures

and flames have scorched all the trees of the field.

20Even the beasts of the field pant for You,

for the streams of water have dried up,

and fire has consumed the open pastures.

"

You go ahead and deny it of you like.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

  To me, the Sign is not "probably" anything, it is "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN." 

Yes. But what is that sign? The sign OF the Son of Man. The sign belongs to the Son of Man, it's not the Son of Man, the Son of Man is not the sign. What is the sign?

It's like any sign. It's pointing the way. A sign on a business isn't the business, it the sign OF the business.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now, I have often thought that when the sky recedes (i.e., "as a scroll when it is rolled together"/Rev. 6:14), it will be at this time that the world will see or glimpse "THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN" and say the following to the mountains: "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."  I believe they are seeing, or glimpsing the Lamb at the right hand of the Father.  And, the countenance of neither is going to be reflecting grace.  Then He will be gone, and a lot more with Him.

You could be right. I won't deny it. The text just doesn't say that.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Why are you thinking they would think this?  With the mentality of our modern God rejecting world, wouldn't they be more likely to attribute it to something else, like, ANYTHING ELSE BUT SOME "GOD"?  Many already believe that everything got its start just because.  They might even think that it's because of something Russia is doing, or China, or some other rogue nation(s).  Perhaps even the result of something nuclear.  Or, worse than that, that long anticipated visit from our not-so-friendly neighbors that dwell somewhere out there in the cosmos.

It's called denial. A powerful concept. Even atheists know God exists or they would not try so hard to discredit God. Remember what Paul said? 

"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

They all know. They just deny. Denial doesn't equate to ignorance.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm still trying to download your concepts.  And, sometimes, I wish I was misunderstanding you.

 

[Diaste]

On 8/4/2021 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

No, I didn't miss this, I just didn't see it as necessary to make my point.  There is nothing about "en" that affects my point negatively in any kind of way.  But, I see a lot with the meanings that you have provided from other sources that supports my point.  For example, "to emerge, become, transitioning from one point" and "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" and "to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" and "it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space)."

Concerning you last sentence, what is it that you are saying that has nothing to do with "time"?

Everything about the preposition has a negative affect on your conclusion. I didn't say it has nothing to do with time, I said this does not reference time but rather 'a time' when it begins. It's not an 'it's almost noon' idea' it's a 'when it begins' on some divine continuum to which we are not privy. 

On 8/4/2021 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Now, don't forget that it is not just "scholars and authors" that may do this.  That "Diaste" guy on Worthy Christian Forums may do this, as well as that "not an echo" guy.  I think it is good to consider what others are saying, but we will give our own account concerning what we accept or reject and for what reasons.

Possibly. I'm betting I have a pretty good track record of 'read and repeat' and valid inference. Not that I don't make mistakes. I have recanted and apologized many time in this forum.

On 8/4/2021 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Where do you get that I "think GT and the martyrs have already happened and is happening"?  And, where do you get that "Any association with the 5th seal martyrs and and past martyrdom is specious"?  I hope you will consider the opening post of my thread, The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).  Hey, and we can talk about it more there too.  Just be patient with me if I get behind.

So your position is not that the next event is the opening of the 6th seal and the first 5 have already opened? I'm pretty sure that's what you state. I'm pretty sure you said all the conditions of the first 5 seals have been ongoing from the 1st century. 

On 8/4/2021 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

  On the basis of what do you choose to see Jesus' Olivet Discourse as being chronological over The Revelation of Jesus Christ?

This is something that's a real problem. One is not, cannot, and will never be, over another. It's truth on the same level; divine prophecy. Therefore it all must align and mesh seamlessly sans contradiction and conflict. I merge the truth of all of it, not elevate one over the other. Some melding of the Olivet accounts and Revelation is plain enough, much is ephemeral. 

Point is they must align with each other reasonably and sensibly. The main reason is Jesus is speaking in both cases. It's not like it's two historians at odds with each other over dates, locations and pottery shards; it's the words of the Eternal Creator.

If one is elevated over the other then Jesus would be wrong in one account and therefore wrong in both. That's not the case so both accounts are true and accurate and will mesh and align perfectly, if we can find the jeweled keys unlocking the treasure of the Word.