Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 7/6/2022 at 5:08 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/6/2022 at 12:59 AM, not an echo said:

For me, I can truly understand why anyone might wonder if the Trump of God is the 7th Trumpet, because Paul also refers to the Trump of God as the Last Trump.  It goes without saying that this is something that deserves looking into.  And we have.  For me, that these are the same will not hold up under a careful study of what is revealed to us in Scripture.  Also, for me, to initially believe that the Trump of God may be the 7th Trumpet is perfectly understandable, but to continue to believe this, in the face of all that we find in Scripture, is to embrace a superficial, instead of an in-depth, look at the question, IMO.

Well yeah. Cause it makes sense, it's simple to understand and anyone can see it. The 7th trump is the one and only last trump in a series of 7 trumps associated with the end of the age, the Coming of Jesus, and the gathering. I see no need to find another last trump when I see one right there in the prophecies. 

Whether the Trump of God, the Last Trump, the great sound of a trumpet, and the 7th Trumpet are one and the same, or different, they would be associated with "the end of the age" and "the Coming of Jesus"  because of their relation thereto.  Further, we know that the Trump of God, the Last Trump, and the great sound of a trumpet are also very, very closely associated with "the gathering" (Matt. 24:31;  I Cor. 15:51-52;  I Thess. 4:16-17).  But, concerning the 7th Trumpet, where are you getting that it is associated with "the gathering"?

Moreover, I also don't see any need "to find another last trump..."  Only thing is, there is the one besides the one you are seeing as being it.  That's the one Paul calls "the Last Trump" in I Corinthians 15:52, which he also refers to as "the Trump of God" in I Thessalonians 4:16---which taken together means that this will be the Last Trump of God.

[not an echo]

On 7/6/2022 at 5:08 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/6/2022 at 12:59 AM, not an echo said:

The point of your reply was that for your stated reason, the flood wouldn't have been wrath.  I then pointed out what Moses said about Sodom and Gomorrah, at which time the same thing was also true.  To use your words, "the Law hadn't yet been made official" at that time either.  Following is part of what I then showed...

I was pointing out a plausible scenario of what I think is the ultimate and final result of wrath and that's eternal death. Eternal death can only be applied if there is a clear violation of a standard, a standard which did not exist at the time of Noah. That standard was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Paul said, "Without the law sin is not imputed." So how would sin sin be imputed if there is no law? It cannot be.

You keep bringing this up and it almost seems like you would see the people of Noah's day as being without guilt, because "the law" was not yet given.  According to what seems to be your position, what then is going to be the "standard" at the time of the judgment for those drowned during the flood?  In other words, they didn't have "a standard" then (according to your concept of things), and they died.  What changes at the judgment?  If God then condemns them to the Lake of Fire, on the basis of what will He do this (according to your concept of things)?  What will be, or become, their "clear violation of a standard" then (as you see it)?

While this is off topic, I feel compelled to address it further.  It must be realized that our problem goes much deeper than any sin or sins we might commit.  We are corrupted fallen creatures in need of God's work of redemption, and without God's work of redemption, the ungodly are not going to receive it---Law or no Law.  Consider the following that Peter writes concerning those of Noah's day and those of Sodom and Gomorrha.  From II Peter 2, picking up here...

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Diaste, before The Law was given, these people were called "ungodly" and "wicked" and "filthy" and even "unlawful" of all things!  I'm thinking of this that Paul wrote in Romans 2:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Now, pay close attention to what he then says...

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I think of what Paul wrote in the opening chapter of Romans.  It's a long section, but please consider...

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Paul's words bespeak the situation of all mankind---Noah's day---Lot's day---before The Law---after The Law.  Every bit of what he said deserves to be highlighted.  And, note the words, "the wrath of God" in verse 18.  I feel very comfortable stating that what happened to the ungodly of Noah's day was the wrath of God.  And yes, Moses called it exactly right concerning Sodom and Gomorrah (Deut. 29:23).  Absolutely.  So, how do we understand Romans 5:13?  Hints:  It wasn't against the law to drive 100 until the speed limit was made 55 (Rom. 7:7).  It wasn't against the law to text and drive, but now it is.  Some people think about such things and drive safely.  Some are gonna do what they wanna do, it don't matter the laws.  And, everything in between (Gal. 3:19;  Rom. 5:20).

Friend, if you're not able to see this, I at least hope you will continue to look in the direction of it.  A lot more could be said, but I would really prefer to keep on track with the focus of this thread.  I hope you will not reject everything I say simply because my position on the rapture is that it will take place pre-Daniel's 70th Week.  My greater position has been and will remain that we be ready, come what may.  That includes being ready today, even as much so as if the A of D becomes manifest tomorrow.  Till one or the other, on my part, based upon what I see revealed in Scripture, I'm looking for the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and ready for the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31).  Being caught up by the angels is pretty awesome to think about too! : )

[not an echo]

On 7/6/2022 at 5:08 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/6/2022 at 12:59 AM, not an echo said:

At this time, you begin to go down a path of scrutinizing Moses' use of the word wrath, beginning with the post where you say the following...

For sure. As an aside, you don't believe the entire bible is the word of God and only words spoken by God, do you? 

So yeah, I will scrutinize who said what and when. Every time, without exception. The above quote from 1 Cor 7 is why we must scrutinize with diligence.

Be consistent then Diaste.  You've mentioned about a thousand times (perhaps a little exaggeration ) that wrath can't happen twice (according to your concept of things) because the unsaved left at the 6th Seal say "the great day of His wrath has come" (Rev. 6:17) and then later, the elders say "Thy wrath is come" (Rev. 11:18).  Why don't you scrutinize what the unsaved are calling wrath?

Bad move.  You are in check again.  And, sorry about your queen---kinda.

On 7/6/2022 at 5:08 AM, Diaste said:

On 7/6/2022 at 12:59 AM, not an echo said:

In response to this reply, I had asked you for the first time how far you were willing to go.  Now, back to what you said to JoeCanada...

Now you are saying, "the natural conclusion" is that "the trumps herald catastrophe of another's doing" and "they are the wrath of someone, but it isn't God or the Lamb." 

It's not like that's a new one. I have said as much many times, to you and others. I get you don't like it but that's what I read. I guess we'll see. 

I can honestly say I have never remembered you or anyone ever saying such a thing.  If you have, I guess I missed it, or it didn't register.  Could you elaborate, or repeat what you have said about this, just one more time for me.  Now, we both know I'll be repeating myself for you.  What's fair is fair.

Edited May 13, 2023 by not an echo

[Retrobyter]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:59 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Your position concerning the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet continues to remind me of an effort to assemble a couple of puzzle pieces that don't truly fit together. 

Also, your last sentence strikes me as being kinda odd.  What is "quite clear" would be that the contents of a multi-sealed book would not be able to be observed until the seals of the book are removed. 

No, you're thinking of a leafed codex as we call "books" today. This is a SCROLL that was multi-sealed, each seal is broken when one gets to that part of the scroll! All seven seals do not have to be removed to get to the whole scroll; instead, each section of the scroll becomes accessible when one breaks the seal sealing that portion of the scroll.

On 7/8/2022 at 10:59 PM, not an echo said:

On the basis of what kind of logic would it seem "quite clear" that the contents of a multi-locked treasure chest might be observed before the locks are removed?

Or, that in some bizarre way, what is inside the chest is related to the locks on the outside of it?

It would be more like the Russian Matryoshka dolls that stack inside each other! You open the "seal" of the outer doll to get to the inner dolls, and so on. Think of multiple treasure chests, each one slightly smaller so it fits in the next one. Each of these chests has SOME information in it as well as the next chest.

On 7/8/2022 at 10:59 PM, not an echo said:

Similar with a diary.  Similar with a storage unit.  Similar with a personal fireproof box.  Similar with a vault.  I think even of cellphone pass codes and Internet user names and passwords.  If you want to see what's in that teenager's locked cell phone, you better have the pass code!  And, once you enter the pass code, would you suppose that something you then find would be related to the pass code?

In all of these cases, it would make better sense to see them as NESTED units: To get to the deeper unit, one must open an outer unit first. It's like nested quotes to see who is doing the talking at each stage.

Hope this helps.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Except......

John is in the throne room and he says he saw a book (scroll) sealed up with 7 seals.

There is no way that he could have known that there were 7 seals if they were "rolled up inside the scroll". They were on the outside otherwise he couldn't have seen them all at once.

All seven seals would have to be taken off the scroll BEFORE the scroll itself could be opened

I just don't see anyway around this

True. And he saw writing on both sides. So the seals weren't hiding what was written but sealing what was written from taking place. 

In any case what's written is that one seal is opened and something is seen by John in succession for 6 seals; one at a time, and a vision of what arises from that one seal is seen.

Scripture doesn't say all 7 were opened at the same time:

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, 

2So I looked and saw 

3And when the Lamb opened the second seal,

4Then another horse went forth.

5And when the Lamb opened the third seal,

Then I looked and saw a black horse, 

7And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, 

8Then I looked and saw a pale green horse.

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw..

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal,

there was a great earthquake,

This is one at a time, then an releasing of a condition and/or events. Do I think all 7 were opened in rapid succession and all the words fulfilled immediately? No. 

Have the seals been opened one at a time over 2 millennia? Maybe, but I'm not convinced.

I think it's a vision of what's to come and the seals are a representative overview, the outline, the umbrella under which the end of the age is administered when it begins to come to pass, as below.

I think none has yet occurred yet base on what is said in Rev 1:1-3:

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass." 

'Soon come to pass' is 'en ginomai' that's 'within the realm of emergence' and does not have a time stamp. So the 'what must' will occur when it begins and in that arena of emergence or influence. 

"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near."

The 'time is near' is 'kairos eggus'. That's 'the opportune moment is near', 'near' being 'place or time'. I guess in my mind what came just before is the object of the approaching moment that is near. None can be blessed for reading, hearing and obeying that which isn't yet revealed. It's about to be revealed and that's the opportune moment which is near.

 

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Be consistent then Diaste.  You've mentioned about a thousand times (perhaps a little exaggeration : )) that wrath can't happen twice (according to your concept of things) because the unsaved left at the 6th Seal say "the great day of His wrath has come" (Rev. 6:17) and then later, the elders say "Thy wrath is come" (Rev. 11:18).  Why don't you scrutinize what the unsaved are calling wrath?

Bad move.  You are in check again.  And, sorry about your queen---kinda.

I'm sure I have. The elders are calling wrath what the people of earth are calling wrath, what the vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is calling wrath.

You see, the people of the earth have not yet said, "“Fall on us and hide usb from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”" this is part of the vision and it's a prophecy of what will come to pass, something the Lord will bring about. Clearly then what is seen in the vision is known to be wrath and revealed to be wrath by none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

This is the same for the elders in Rev 8:16-18; They have not said anything yet. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Great Prophet, the King of Kings, is revealing what will be said when the time comes, and He's calling it wrath.

This is perfectly consistent with my position on the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. The God of my fathers didn't call it wrath then, Moses did. Now in the Revelation Jesus has been found worthy to reveal what will come to pass and His vision, and the words of that vison, which He will bring to pass in the future, labels it as wrath.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning this, your post as a whole, and other things you have said---especially of late---sometimes I think our discussions would be a little more edifying if you granted to others some of the latitude you seek for yourself. : )

If you could be more specific I'll certainly examine potential hypocrisy on my part.

And if you seek broader epistemology then by all means do explain. 

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Be consistent then Diaste.  You've mentioned about a thousand times (perhaps a little exaggeration : )) that wrath can't happen twice (according to your concept of things) because the unsaved left at the 6th Seal say "the great day of His wrath has come" (Rev. 6:17) and then later, the elders say "Thy wrath is come" (Rev. 11:18).  Why don't you scrutinize what the unsaved are calling wrath?

Bad move.  You are in check again.  And, sorry about your queen---kinda.

I can honestly say I have never remembered you or anyone ever saying such a thing.  If you have, I guess I missed it, or it didn't register.  Could you elaborate, or repeat what you have said about this, just one more time for me.  Now, we both know I'll be repeating myself for you.  What's fair is fair. : )

Are you referring to what I say about the 6th seal and 7th trump as concurrent?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

You keep bringing this up and it almost seems like you would see the people of Noah's day as being without guilt, because "the law" was not yet given.  According to what seems to be your position, what then is going to be the "standard" at the time of the judgment for those drowned during the flood?  In other words, they didn't have "a standard" then (according to your concept of things), and they died.  What changes at the judgment?  If God then condemns them to the Lake of Fire, on the basis of what will He do this (according to your concept of things)?  What will be, or become, their "clear violation of a standard" then (as you see it)?

 I haven't been appointed to judge such matters. What is in my purview is to read and seek understanding. When Paul instructs on the Law and it's purpose I just try to understand the concepts. 

When Paul says, "14For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith is useless and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law, there is no transgression."

And,

"13For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. "

And,

8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

The conclusion can only be, "No law, no sin." Paul also says, 

"Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”"

So all the above is a reference to the 10 commandments which were not given until Moses on Mt. Sinai. So no, these people could not be judged under the Law as they must know the Law. And Paul clearly says he would not have been aware of coveting apart from the commandment, 'Thou shalt not covet'. So then except for awareness of the Law there is no sin, and one cannot be aware of the Law until the Law is given.

What I suppose they can be judged by is their faith or lack of it. It's not they didn't know God existed and surely there were prophets.

Personally I don't want anyone to be judged and sent to the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will be. If there's a loophole the width of a planck length that can be utilized to avoid eternal death I hope everyone can squeeze through it.

 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

While this is off topic, I feel compelled to address it further.  It must be realized that our problem goes much deeper than any sin or sins we might commit.  We are corrupted fallen creatures in need of God's work of redemption, and without God's work of redemption, the ungodly are not going to receive it---Law or no Law.  Consider the following that Peter writes concerning those of Noah's day and those of Sodom and Gomorrha.  From II Peter 2, picking up here...

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

Diaste, before The Law was given, these people were called "ungodly" and "wicked" and "filthy" and even "unlawful" of all things! 

I would have to ask Peter if this is said from his perspective in the 1st century or from the position of God in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Of course Peter can speak with clarity on transgression of the Law in the past while in the 1st century.

On Sodom and Gomorrah God says the cry against them was great and He came to do something about it. He does speak to sin and wickedness and is going to have a look for Himself. 

My point is the judgement and what happens then. You can't ignore what Paul says above.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

I'm thinking of this that Paul wrote in Romans 2:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

This isn't apart from the standard, it's a disregard of the standard, knowing it but acting in violation anyway.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Now, pay close attention to what he then says...

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

This a special case. These days one would be hard pressed to find such a righteous figure even in one person and much less so a group. But who knows, it could be true there are such.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

I think of what Paul wrote in the opening chapter of Romans.  It's a long section, but please consider...

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Yeah. We have the Law. What Paul said in Romans 4,5 and 7 cannot be ignored. We have to reconcile the two truths and come to a conclusion holding to both, a mature understanding both discerning and of the Spirit. 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I don't disagree. Still, one cannot ignore:

"And where there is no law, there is no transgression."

"but sin is not taken into account when there is no law."

"I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. "

"For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”"

Are the above quotes from Paul now rendered false? This means some other mode of judgment must be employed as sin cannot be taken to account in this case. Does Paul mean original sin or behavior? Under the Law or not under the Law? Were messengers sent to warn them of impending judgment like at Nineveh? 

No matter what, if one is unaware of the transgression then it's fully unrighteous to punish them. I'm holding out hope that when the books are opened even the worst of them will have fed, clothed, given to drink, or somehow cared for even one less fortunate and thereby escape the eternity of the lake of fire. 

 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

 

Paul's words bespeak the situation of all mankind---Noah's day---Lot's day---before The Law---after The Law.  Every bit of what he said deserves to be highlighted.  And, note the words, "the wrath of God" in verse 18.  I feel very comfortable stating that what happened to the ungodly of Noah's day was the wrath of God.  And yes, Moses called it exactly right concerning Sodom and Gomorrah (Deut. 29:23).  Absolutely.  So, how do we understand Romans 5:13?  Hints:  It wasn't against the law to drive 100 until the speed limit was made 55 (Rom. 7:7).  It wasn't against the law to text and drive, but now it is.  Some people think about such things and drive safely.  Some are gonna do what they wanna do, it don't matter the laws.  And, everything in between (Gal. 3:19;  Rom. 5:20).

Except in Romans 7:7 Paul references the 10 commandments, not traffic laws. smh

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Friend, if you're not able to see this, I at least hope you will continue to look in the direction of it.  A lot more could be said, but I would really prefer to keep on track with the focus of this thread.  I hope you will not reject everything I say simply because my position on the rapture is that it will take place pre-Daniel's 70th Week.  My greater position has been and will remain that we be ready, come what may.  That includes being ready today, even as much so as if the A of D becomes manifest tomorrow.  Till one or the other, on my part, based upon what I see revealed in Scripture, I'm looking for the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and ready for the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31).  Being caught up by the angels is pretty awesome to think about too! : )

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by Diaste

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Whether the Trump of God, the Last Trump, the great sound of a trumpet, and the 7th Trumpet are one and the same, or different, they would be associated with "the end of the age" and "the Coming of Jesus"  because of their relation thereto.  Further, we know that the Trump of God, the Last Trump, and the great sound of a trumpet are also very, very closely associated with "the gathering" (Matt. 24:31;  I Cor. 15:51-52;  I Thess. 4:16-17).  But, concerning the 7th Trumpet, where are you getting that it is associated with "the gathering"?

 

"

The time has come to judge the dead

and to reward Your servants the prophets,

as well as the saints and those who fear Your name,

both small and great—

Since this is the time of wrath 'harpazo' must occur as we are taken out before wrath falls; every school of thought on the gathering concurs. This is the 7th trump. 

I don't limit the reward to what ever material items or positions are granted; the harpazo itself is a great reward signifying eschatological victory over the beast.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Moreover, I also don't see any need "to find another last trump..."  Only thing is, there is the one besides the one you are seeing as being it.  That's the one Paul calls "the Last Trump" in I Corinthians 15:52, which he also refers to as "the Trump of God" in I Thessalonians 4:16---which taken together means that this will be the Last Trump of God.

And yet you weren't frustrated in finding one. Now we have two last trumps. I think that's adding.