Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Diaste and @truth7t7.

Perhaps the dilemma could be solved by simply acknowledging that the "tribulation period" is NOT "7 years long!"

It's been the conclusion of pre-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath alike, that the 70th Week of Daniel 9's 70 Weeks of Years IS THE SAME AS the "tribulation."

But, what would it do to your scenarios to realize that the tribulation is not in the 70 Weeks of years AT ALL?

I've been saying this for a while now, but what if the "tribulation period" is "great" because of HOW LONG and WIDE ENCOMPASSING it is?

Everyone uses Matthew 24:4-31 in the Olivet Discourse as the basis for the timing of the End Times. They may supplement it with Mark 13:55-27 and Luke 21:8-28, but most will highlight Matthew's account.

So, let's look at Matthew 24:4-31:

Matthew 24:4-31 (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying,

"'I am Christ';

"and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Greek: τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν, καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου. = "Then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation, and they-will-kill you; and you-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me.") 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 "When ye therefore shall see (Greek: ideete = "ye shall see," 2nd person plural)  the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (Greek: προσεύχεσθε δὲ ἵνα μὴ γένηται ἡ φυγὴ ὑμῶν χειμῶνος, μηδὲ ἐν σαββάτῳ. = "Pray-ye [2nd person plural] but so-that not might-be the flight of-you [plural] in-winter nor on Shabbat:") 21 For then shall be great tribulation, (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure; persecution") such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days (of persecution) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (of persecution) shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you (Greek: Tote ean tis humin eipee = "Then if anyone to-you [plural] says"),

"'Lo, here is Christ!', or

"'there [He is]!';

"believe it not! 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before[hand]!

26 "Wherefore if they shall say unto you,

"'Behold, he is in the desert!';

"go not forth!:

"'behold, he is in the secret chambers!';

"believe it not! 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation (Greek: Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin, accusative of thlipsis meaning "Immediately but after the pressure/persecution") of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The Greek word "thlipsis" θλῖψις ("tribulation") is found THREE places in this short passage of Scripture, and they are all related. The first occurrence, however, was written "TO HIS DISCIPLES" sitting there on the Mount of Olives with  the word "humas," meaning "you" plural!

The second occurrence was also addressed to His Disciples, for in the verses just prior (verse 20) and after (verse 23), Yeshua` speaks to them DIRECTLY (with the words humoon and humin)!                                       

HOWEVER, the third occurrence, verse 29, hasn't happened, yet! It will happen sometime in OUR future!

Yeshua` tells them,

1. MANY shall come in my name, saying, 'I am [the] Christ'
2. ye shall hear of wars and rumours (threats) of wars
3. nation shall rise against nation
4. kingdom against kingdom
5. there shall be famines (plural!)
6. there shall be ... pestilences (plural!)
7. there shall be ... earthquakes (plural!)
8. ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
9. MANY shall be offended (led into sin)
10. MANY ... shall betray one another
11. MANY ... shall hate one another
12. MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many
13. iniquity shall abound
14. the love of MANY shall wax (grow) cold
15. this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world

All of these points indicate A LARGE AMOUNT OF TIME GOING BY and "then shall the end come."

He also said, "he that shall endure (last) unto the end (of the tribulation), the same shall be saved (rescued; delivered)!"

His only words of "comfort" during all this are these:

"And except those days (of persecution) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (of persecution) shall be shortened."

It's not the length of time between the start of the persecution and His Second Coming that is "shortened"; it's the number of days of persecution within that length of time that is shortened! In other words, there will be reprieves given throughout this time period, time to rebuild and repopulate the persecuted "elect," God's "chosen ones!" "Ye chosen seed of Israel's race, Ye ransomed from the fall," as Edward Perronet said in his song, "All Hail the Power."

THAT'S THE "TRIBULATION" THAT YESHUA` TAUGHT! And, these United States of America are the biggest reprieve that His chosen ones have received in the last 2,000 years, and so far, THAT'S the length of the "Tribulation," not some pittance of 7 years nor half of that!

=======

Change of gears, here: Suppose that I'm right and the "tribulation period" is more like 2,000 years long. What does that do to a "pretribulational rapture?" It CAN'T exist, because we're already IN the "tribulation!"

If the 7 years of the 70th Week of Daniel 9 is not the "tribulation," then WHAT IS IT?! For the answer to that, we must go back to Daniel 9!

The six purposes for the 70 Weeks are stated in verse 24.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
(1) to finish the transgression, and
(2) to make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint the most Holy.

We all know these were started by the Messiah Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus) in His First Advent. And, we know that whatever the Messiah did, especially in His death, burial, and resurrection, He did perfectly and finished the task of justification for all.

But, can we truly say that "transgressions are finished?" Can we truly say that "sins have been ended?" Can we say that "iniquities have all been reconciled?" Can we truly say that "everlasting righteousness has been brought in?" I don't believe we can until they have been PRACTICALLY APPLIED to all God's children!

Can we say that "the vision and prophecy have been sealed up?" No, not yet.

Can we say that "the most Holy has been anointed?" Well, He's been anointed by His Father when the Holy Spirit of God, like a dove, descended upon Him, but David was anointed by God through His prophet Sh'mu'el (Samuel) long before he was anointed by the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") or the children of Israel. We certainly know that the nation of Israel has not yet anointed Yeshua` as their King. So, I believe, this too has yet to be completed.

The 70th Week of years, not being the "tribulation," would rather be the time when all six of these purposes would be fulfilled in a time when God offered the Kingdom to Israel through His Son being His Messiah to be their King.

The first half of the Week, He came as the Lamb of God, the sacrifice for sin. The Jewish rabbis called this the Mashiyach Ben Yosef, "Messiah Son of Joseph" (referring to the Joseph in Genesis), the suffering and dying Messiah.

The second half of the Week, He will come as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the victorious and reigning Messiah. The Jewish rabbis called this Mashiyach Ben David, "Messiah Son of David," the victorious and reigning Messiah.

Both of these described the two different Messiahs found in prophecy. Recognizing that Yeshua` during His First Advent was the "suffering and dying Messiah," John the Baptist sent his disciples to ask, "Art thou he that should come (the victorious and reigning Messiah, too) or do we look for another?" The rabbis were always debating whether there would be one Messiah fulfilling both roles, or if there would be two Messiahs, each taking one of the two roles. Yeshua` demonstrated miracles for John's disciples that partly fulfilled those prophecies about the Messiah Son of David, and told them to go show John what they saw.

John wasn't "shaken in his faith," as some claim. He was confirming that there was only ONE Messiah, the Son of God! After all, he himself had come "in the spirit of Elijah," although he wasn't Elijah himself.

The end of the 69th Week coincides with the 1st presentation of the Messiah in Jerusalem as God's Messiah, anointed to be King! This happened right after His baptism.

The first half of the 70th Week was the "initial offer of the Kingdom to the Jews" during Yeshua`s First Advent. The second half of the 70th Week will be the "second offer of the Kingdom to the Jews" after His Second Coming, but the "tribulation" ends with His Coming!

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

First, understand that the "antichrist" or the "Beast" is not found in Daniel 9:26 at all. The subject is the "people" and it is followed by a prepositional phrase, "of the prince that shall come." Therefore, the "prince" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs in verse 27. For the singular, masculine subject that can be the antecedent of the verbs in verse 27, we must go back to "Messiah" in verse 26.

Therefore, it is the MESSIAH who "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." This was the DAVIDIC COVENANT, which was quoted by Gabriel when he announced the Messiah's conception to Mary in Luke 1:30-33.

It is the MESSIAH who, "in the midst of the week, shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." This was fulfilled in the death of the Messiah on the cross, when the veil in the Temple was ripped in two (See Hebrews 9 and 10.)

It is the MESSIAH who, "for the overspreading of abominations, shall make it desolate, even until the consummation." This was fulfilled when the Messiah bawled out the scribes and the Pharisees in Matthew 23 for their abominations, and in verse 38 when He left them "desolate."

Then we are told, "that [which is] determined shall be poured upon the [ones left] desolate." THIS is the "tribulation" which our Lord predicted in the Olivet Discourse.

You may not be ready, yet, to accept this, but it's something to think about and consider.

I Disagree with your claim Daniel's 70 weeks are years

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't 

Daniel's 70 literal weeks are "future", and will start at a "Future" command to build a wall/street in Jerusalem

In the "Future" 70th week the antichrist will be revealed in Jerusalem, armies will surround the city as the 70th week is "Completed", at this time the "Future" 3.5 year tribulation starts

Edited August 5, 2022 by truth7t7

[not an echo]

On 8/2/2022 at 4:57 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2022 at 1:06 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Well, I was hoping that with my last post (last post of page 71), I had gotten my thread back on track.  However, it looks like that now it has gotten derailed again, possibly as bad as it has ever been.   Hopefully I can get it back on track before the night is done, maybe by the time I get finished with this reply.  As I have said before, I don't mind checking out some of the scenery along our journey.  But, we can't lose sight of our destination.  Any scenery that distracts too much from the topic of a thread deserves a thread all it own.

Concerning your replies above, we really haven't looked this way much, so I would like to make a few comments before prying us back on track.

The concept of a coming Messiah (or Christ) was revealed more and more in the OT days, but that the name of the Messiah would be "Jesus" was not made known until this was made known unto Joseph, when Mary "was found with child of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 1:18).  At this time, the angel informed Joseph, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS..." (Matt. 1:21).  The greatest stir concerning Jesus revolved around whether He was indeed the Son of God and the Christ.  Jesus was crucified because He was rejected as being neither.  Remaining mindful of this adds deeper meaning to the following question Jesus asked of His disciples: "Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?"  Notice the continuing dialogue in Matthew 16...

14 And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in Heaven.

When we speak of Jesus Christ, we speak in terms that the orthodox Jew rejects, for they do not recognize Jesus as the Christ, much less the Son of God.  What I am talking about, and what Jesus was alluding to in Matthew 24:9 is reinforced by Peter on the Day of Pentecost, when he tells the assembled Jews this, from Acts 2...

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Moreover, the persecution that followers of Jesus would be subjected to begins to be seen very shortly thereafter.  In Acts 3, after healing a lame man (vs. 6), Peter explains to the wondering crowd that it was not by his and John's power that the miracle was done, but through faith in His (Jesus') name (vs. 16/good to read the whole chapter).  Then notice what is given an account of in chapter four...

1 And as they (Peter and John)  spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,

2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

After arresting and interrogating Peter and John (Acts 4:3-16), the religious leaders threatened them, telling them this...

18 And they (the religious leaders)  called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.

This sort of thing characterized what we see throughout the book of Acts, only it got worse and worse!  Further (and as I have said on several occasions), it would have been easy for the disciples to have thought that just the opposite would be the case---especially after what happened on the Day of Pentecost.  But, we know that that was not the case and never came to be the case.

So again, notwithstanding some elements of truth in some of what you have said Diaste, no one was "afflicted" or "kill[ed] or "hated" for Jesus' "name's sake" (Matt. 24:9) before He came, for no one knew what His name would be.  It goes without saying that all of this changed afterwards---in a big way.

I guess I could get along with the premise of the above but for the main thrust of the Olivet Discourse; answering the question of the disciples. 

Jesus' whole answer concerned the time of the end of age, when He would come and when these things would be. From that question forward the answer is given. Then at the end of the answer Jesus says, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

If we are to believe it's 2000 years of Christian specific persecution and terrifying horses running rampant across the earth then the prophecy must be considered false; it can't all happen in one generation that 'sees ALL these things'. 

'ALL these things' must include every part of the answer to the 3 part question posed by the disciples. There is no divergence from the answer to 'When will these things happen? What is the sign of your coming and the End of the Age?' apart from a single generation as witness to everything.

Hello Diaste,

Just to clarify a little further...

Concerning your third paragraph, first of all, I've never indicated that I think we are going to be seeing "terrifying horses running rampant across the earth",  if what you are talking about is the horses that the horsemen of the first four seals are riding.  Now, if our spiritual realm blinders were removed, we might all be surprised at what we would see---kinda like with Elisha's servant (II Kg. 7:15-17).

Still related to your third paragraph, I know I have spoke to this before, just not sure if it was to you.  What Jesus spoke of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse not only began to take place in the disciples' day, but has continued to take place down through the corridors of history, even to our day.  Moreover, it will continue, even till the day that the 6th Seal is opened, which day marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  This corresponds to what Jesus said in the following verse, from Matthew 24:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

During the period of the Day of the Lord, Daniel's 70th Week will take place, which Jesus begins to speak to in the next verse...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Continuing still in Matthew 24, the capstone of Daniel's 70th Week will be Christ's Second Coming, which Jesus speaks to in the following verses...

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Important to realize is that at this point, Jesus turns His attention to the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vss. 29-31), which corresponds to the opening of the 6th Seal.  Moreover, this is the focus of His attention throughout the rest of the chapter.  Concerning your statement, "it can't all happen in one generation",  that is true.  But, all who are a part of the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will be a part of the generation that can see "all these things" (vs. 33).  How in?  Just consider if the rapture happens today.  Thinking of those who are left who will ultimately come to Christ (rather than take the mark), they will be a part of the same generation that has seen the same things we have---all of which connects with what Jesus warned of in verses 5-14.  Also, these will be a part of the same generation that sees the rise of the A of D and everything related to Daniel's 70th Week.  Also, these will be a part of the same generation that sees everything that takes place with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Said another way, the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will "see all these things" and not age 10 years before Christ's Second Advent.  Now, no generation that was alive in the 2nd century saw all these things.  Neither any generation in the 9th century, the 17th century, or our own century---so far.

Note that for your position, what Jesus says concerning "This generation" (vs. 34) would be quite an odd statement.  Why?  What He just got through saying concerning "all these things" (vs. 33) would have to include what He also just spoke of in verses 29-31.  Do you see it?  Verses 29-31 connect with the opening of the 6th Seal, and you have the 7th Trumpet and Christ's Second Advent happening concurrent/successive with this.  Remember what Jesus says in verse 32?  "Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"  Question:  Why would Jesus be talking in terms of a "generation" if the rapture is going to happen concurrent/successive with His Second Advent?

I know you have already seen my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  I would like to encourage you to look at it again (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

On 8/2/2022 at 4:57 AM, Diaste said:

You keep saying Matt 24:4-8 has nothing to do with the end of the age, it's a 2000 year stretch of distress culminating in the 'rapture' at the 6th seal. Yet it's Jesus lead in to the answer about the end of the age. The disciples didn't ask "What's it going to be like after you're gone?" They asked specifically about the end of the age and Jesus' return.

You make the statement, "You keep saying Matt 24:4-8 has nothing to do with the end of the age..."  When did I ever say that?  That has never been my position.  What Jesus speaks to His disciples of in the first section of His discourse (Matt. 24:4-14) will continue and/or hold true right up until the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Matt. 24:14), which could begin today.  Note that if it does, its beginning will be preceded just a little bit by "a great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31), which Paul refers to as the Trump of God.  It will be some months later before Daniel's 70th Week begins (Matt. 24:15;  Rev. 11:1;  II Thess. 2:3-4).  Further, it will be at the mid-point before the 7th Trumpet will be sounded.     

Concerning the disciples' questions, just because they asked their questions according to their curiosity and concept of things, Jesus was not bound in any way to answer their questions according to the same criteria.  It was often very interesting the way Jesus answered questions that were asked of Him (e.g., Mk. 10:17-22;  Jn. 4:9-10).  The important thing is His reply, not the exactness of it to the question(s) posed.

On 8/2/2022 at 4:57 AM, Diaste said:

You fail to address " 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. " and what sets the above apart from the 4000 years before Jesus so we know it's prophetic and not historic. 

The above is part of the prophecy of the end of the age and can't be ignored. Again it seems as though taking a sharp knife to the prophecy and paring out the selected parts is the overall plan here. 

Again, this will continue right up until the end of the age.  The magnificence of Jesus' words is seen in the way everything has come down the pike, as His words have held the same relevance for every generation of the NT Church, even connected with the spread of the Gospel (e.g., Col. 1:3-6).

On 8/2/2022 at 4:57 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2022 at 1:06 AM, not an echo said:

In tune with all we find in Scripture and what has characterized every century of Christianity, what can be expected is this:  Things are going to keep on being just exactly like what Jesus said they were going to be---till they are not.  That will be when the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will rudely interrupt what is considered the norm of our day---just like in the days of Noah.  It's not hard to imagine how it must have been in Noah's day, before the flood.  But, it had become the norm.  And, it continued, till the day that "the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11).  As it was then, so will it be preceding the gathering of the Church.  In His Olivet Discourse, Jesus also said this:  "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage..." (Matt. 24:38).  Furthermore, He said, "Then shall two be in the field;  the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill;  the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Watch therefore:  for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24:40-42).  The spirit of the scriptures is that the rapture will take place on a day that starts out to be a common day.  

On that day, Christ will also make a "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:30), whereupon "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31).  And again, Paul's words align with Christ's words, and he refers to the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of as "the Trump of God" (I Cor. 15:51-52).  Because all of this happens with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-17, we can know that this is not the "seventh" trumpet John speaks of in Revelation 11:15, for neither it, nor any of the other six trumpets can be sounded until after the 7th Seal is removed (Rev. 8:1-2ff).  Again, this, and all that I have shown in the course of this thread---and what I will continue to show---just keeps establishing beyond refute that the answer to the question of this thread---according to Scripture---is NO.

Not really though. You can't have Jesus return or the gathering unless GT happens and GT cannot happen till the A of D occurs. You are rearranging the prophecy to fit your bias over the pretrib rapture. 

What Jesus says about His Second Advent closes with Matthew 24:23-28 (note vs. 28 with Rev. 19:17-21).  Jesus then turns His attention to the event of His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:29-51), which happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16).

On 8/2/2022 at 4:57 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2022 at 1:06 AM, not an echo said:

Hopefully this will get us back on track.  Hey, and I understand about scenery, as long as it is not allowed to distract too much from our destination.  The subject of this thread concerns the question, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?  Note that just because I've already given the answer, there's a lot more to be said, which will just reinforce more and more the truth of what I have already shown.

I think you mean there's a lot more for you to ignore on the matter that will reinforce the deep bias contained in a desperate search to prove the pretrib rapture is your guiding star of interpretation.

What is it you think I have ignored?  Our endeavor should be to get every single prophetic puzzle piece in its correct place.  Of course, some of the puzzle pieces are more difficult---like those blue sky pieces in a scenery puzzle---but none can just be ignored.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Regarding...."The silence when He opened the 7th seal"

Could it be that Jesus just "left the building?"

Look at Psa 65:1-4:

There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.
Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

Perhaps.....

This is the actual moment (the 1/2 hour) when Jesus descends and brings the saints home.

The 6th seal does not mention the rapture. 

 

 

True. In fact I don't see the rapture in Revelation, just the results. I don't see the rapture happening at the 6th seal either; the trump will sound at the rapture.

Most of what I see is based on the last trump idea; with the 7th trump in Rev 11 being the only last trump in a series of trumps: associated with Jesus coming, the end of the age, rewards for the saints, wrath and vengeance. 

That 7th trump is the last trump and would necessarily have to sound before wrath.

The 6th seal tells us wrath is coming and in fact has arrived and is about to commence. The 7th trump then would have to sound sometime after the 6th seal and before the 7th.

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "it can't all happen in one generation",  that is true.  But, all who are a part of the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will be a part of the generation that can see "all these things" (vs. 33).  How in?

Yes. But an arbitrary line can't just be drawn through the prophecy as we see fit. "All these things" must have a beginning and if we listen that time where 'all these things' ensues is following the question of the disciples.

All from the question,

"“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”"

to the statement,

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

is 'all these things'. 

It can't be parceled out with a dividing line between verses 14-15 when no such language exists to justify this. 

The question is about the end of the age, not conditions after Jesus is gone. 

A big problem is nothing differentiates the past 2000 years from the 4000 years before that, and in the ensuing 2000 year since the ascension there have dire calamities for Christians; Islamic conquest, Mongols, The Inquisitions, to name a few. All went beyond the scope of verses 4-14. Which one was GT since there was no A of D to kick off GT, as spoken by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

You can call the last 2000 years GT if you like but you are missing an important component Jesus said must occur before GT; the A of D as spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. 

No A of D, no GT.

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I Disagree with your claim Daniel's 70 weeks are years

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't 

Daniel's 70 literal weeks are "future", and will start at a "Future" command to build a wall/street in Jerusalem

In the "Future" 70th week the antichrist will be revealed in Jerusalem, armies will surround the city as the 70th week is "Completed", at this time the "Future" 3.5 year tribulation starts

Shalom, truth7t7.

Sorry, but the "antichrist" is not in Daniel 9 AT ALL! Not in verse 26 nor in verse 27! If Daniel had meant the "antichrist," he would have written "antichrist" or "against the Messiah" or "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" or the "beast!" That's NOT who the "prince that cometh" was! He was Titus and the "people of the prince," the actual subject in this verse, were the Roman legions under his command. That happened in the FIRST Century, not the TWENTY-FIRST (or LATER) Century!

Furthermore, the contextual clues of this short 4-verse passage show that these "Weeks," or literally "Sevens" (Hebrew "shaaVu`iym"), were of years because of the vast time periods involved between "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (from DANIEL'S perspective) and "the arrival of the Messiah." In between, the streets and the moat are built "even in troublous times." All of this TAKES TIME to perform! MUCH more than a few short weeks!

Ezra 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia (Cyrus the Great, reigned from 559-530 B.C.), that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

2 "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia,

"'The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. 3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.'"

5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem. 6 And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.

7 Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods; 8 Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah. 9 And this is the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives, 10 Thirty basons of gold, silver basons of a second sort four hundred and ten, and other vessels a thousand. 11 All the vessels of gold and of silver were five thousand and four hundred. All these did Sheshbazzar bring up with them of the captivity that were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem.

Consider Ezra 3:8-6:15 (I know, this is going to be a long quote. Bear with me.)

Ezra 3:8-6:15 (KJV)

8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD. 9 Then stood Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to set forward the workmen in the house of God: the sons of Henadad, with their sons and their brethren the Levites.

10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel. 11And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid. 12 But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy: 13 So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people: for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off.

1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the LORD God of Israel; 2 Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them,

"Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither."

3 But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them,

"Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us."

4 Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building, 5 And hired counsellers against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia (Darius I, reigned from 522 to 486 B.C.).

6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus (Esther's husband, Xerxes I, reigned from 485 to 465 B.C.), in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.

7 And in the days of Artaxerxes (Artaxerxes I, reigned from 465 to 424 B.C.) wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.

8 Rehum the chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Artaxerxes the king in this sort: 9 Then wrote Rehum the chancellor, and Shimshai the scribe, and the rest of their companions; the Dinaites, the Apharsathchites, the Tarpelites, the Apharsites, the Archevites, the Babylonians, the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites, 10 And the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnappar brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest that are on this side the river, and at such a time. 11 This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king;

"Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time. 12 Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations. 13 Be it known now unto the king, that, if this city be builded, and the walls set up again, then will they not pay toll, tribute, and custom, and so thou shalt endamage the revenue of the kings. 14 Now because we have maintenance from the king's palace, and it was not meet for us to see the king's dishonour, therefore have we sent and certified the king; 15 That search may be made in the book of the records of thy fathers: so shalt thou find in the book of the records, and know that this city is a rebellious city, and hurtful unto kings and provinces, and that they have moved sedition within the same of old time: for which cause was this city destroyed. 16 We certify the king that, if this city be builded again, and the walls thereof set up, by this means thou shalt have no portion on this side the river."

17 Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river,

"Peace, and at such a time. 

18 "The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me. 19 And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein. 20 There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them. 

21 "Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me. 22 Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings?"

23 Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.

24 Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia (Darius II, reigned from 424 to 404 B.C.).

1 Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them. 2 Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which is at Jerusalem: and with them were the prophets of God helping them.

3 At the same time came to them Tatnai, governor on this side the river, and Shetharboznai, and their companions, and said thus unto them,

"Who hath commanded you to build this house, and to make up this wall?"

4 Then said we unto them after this manner,

"What are the names of the men that make this building?"

5 But the eye of their God was upon the elders of the Jews, that they could not cause them to cease, till the matter came to Darius: and then they returned answer by letter concerning this matter.

6 The copy of the letter that Tatnai, governor on this side the river, and Shetharboznai, and his companions the Apharsachites, which were on this side the river, sent unto Darius the king: 7 They sent a letter unto him, wherein was written thus;

"Unto Darius the king, all peace. 8 Be it known unto the king, that we went into the province of Judea, to the house of the great God, which is builded with great stones, and timber is laid in the walls, and this work goeth fast on, and prospereth in their hands. 9 Then asked we those elders, and said unto them thus,

"'Who commanded you to build this house, and to make up these walls?'

10 "We asked their names also, to certify thee, that we might write the names of the men that were the chief of them. 11 And thus they returned us answer, saying,

"'We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth, and build the house that was builded these many years ago, which a great king of Israel builded and set up. 12 But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon. 13 But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God. 14 And the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that was in Jerusalem, and brought them into the temple of Babylon, those did Cyrus the king take out of the temple of Babylon, and they were delivered unto one, whose name was Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor; 15 And said unto him,

"' "Take these vessels, go, carry them into the temple that is in Jerusalem, and let the house of God be builded in his place."

16 "'Then came the same Sheshbazzar, and laid the foundation of the house of God which is in Jerusalem: and since that time even until now hath it been in building, and yet it is not finished.'

17 "Now therefore, if it seem good to the king, let there be search made in the king's treasure house, which is there at Babylon, whether it be so, that a decree was made of Cyrus the king to build this house of God at Jerusalem, and let the king send his pleasure to us concerning this matter."

1 Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2 And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written: 

3 "In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem,

"'Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits; 4 With three rows of great stones, and a row of new timber: and let the expences be given out of the king's house: 5 And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God.'

6 "Now therefore, Tatnai, governor beyond the river, Shetharboznai, and your companions the Apharsachites, which are beyond the river, be ye far from thence: 7 Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place. 8 Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expences be given unto these men, that they be not hindered. 9 And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: 10 That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons. 

11 "Also I have made a decree, that 'whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill (a public outhouse) for this! 12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem.'

"I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed!"

13 Then Tatnai, governor on this side the river, Shetharboznai, and their companions, according to that which Darius the king had sent, so they did speedily! 14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia (Artaxerxes II, reigned from 404 to 358 B.C.). 15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king (Darius II, 419-418 B.C.).

(Artaxerxes II was mentioned, probably because he was the son and heir of Darius II, and Darius II included him to be sure the project was enforced if he didn't live to see the end of the project.)

My point is this: From the time that Cyrus the Great issued his decree in 559 B.C. to the time when the Temple actually was finished in 419 B.C., we have a difference of 140 years! This is based upon Wikipedia's List of monarchs of Persia and this passage of Scripture. Whether this is the date of the decree, I don't know. It may have been later when Cyrus the Great captured Babylon 0n October 12, 539 B.C. That would make it more like 120 years, but it certainly was not finished in 3 or 7 years!

In any case, THIS is the time periods in question, not in the End Times! These are Sevens ("Shaavu`iym") of years, not mere days.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Retrobyter
to finish a reference

[Diaste]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

It's been the conclusion of pre-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath alike, that the 70th Week of Daniel 9's 70 Weeks of Years IS THE SAME AS the "tribulation."

But, what would it do to your scenarios to realize that the tribulation is not in the 70 Weeks of years AT ALL?

Actually not for prewrath. 

That scenario concludes the A of D begins the 2nd half, a total of 3 1/2 years. GT follows immediately after the A of D and continues to some point in the 2nd half when Jesus arrive to 'cut short' the GT, still within the 2nd half. Then Jesus prosecutes judgement on the beast and kingdom to the day that ends of the 42 months of the beast's time, again, all in the 2nd half. Only pre-, post-, and mid- conclude all the 70th week is GT. Pre- even says the whole 70th week is wrath. Those dispensationalists...

 

 

[Diaste]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:35 PM, Retrobyter said:

THAT'S THE "TRIBULATION" THAT YESHUA` TAUGHT! And, these United States of America are the biggest reprieve that His chosen ones have received in the last 2,000 years, and so far, THAT'S the length of the "Tribulation," not some pittance of 7 years nor half of that!

Yeah? But no....

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again

No A of D, no GT. Can't be any clearer or simpler. Not open to fanciful interpretations or base rationalizations. 

Now, if it can be proven that a later A of D than 167 BC took place after Jesus said this, but before 70 AD, then I could agree with some 1990 years of GT. But it didn't and I cannot. It's just wrong. 

[Diaste]

On 8/3/2022 at 11:17 AM, truth7t7 said:

I don't follow the teachings of occultist "Sir Isaac Newton" 1726AD and his interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks being 490 years as many believe and teach

Once again, a "Future" command will go out to build Jerusalem's wall/street this starts the clock on the 70 "literal weeks"

70 "literal weeks" later the antichrist is revealed in Jerusalem, as a future abomination of desolation takes place as armies surround the city, the 70 "literal weeks" are now "completed" and the "Future" 3.5 year tribulation starts

I have explained this in elementary language, you might not agree, but it's simple and very easy to understand 

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

I understand what you are saying. I'm saying it doesn't align. Where do you get 3.5 years when the prophecy of 3.5 years is based on 'weeks of years' and you say the 70 weeks is 490 days, which end at the A of D, then you have a mysterious 3.5 years?

Where does the 3.5 years comes from in prophecy then? 

[Diaste]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Just to clarify a little further...

Concerning your third paragraph, first of all, I've never indicated that I think we are going to be seeing "terrifying horses running rampant across the earth",  if what you are talking about is the horses that the horsemen of the first four seals are riding.  Now, if our spiritual realm blinders were removed, we might all be surprised at what we would see---kinda like with Elisha's servant (II Kg. 7:15-17).

It is your proposition the 4 horseman have been riding since the 1st century.

Why do I even try anymore? You don't even own your own premises. 

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Still related to your third paragraph, I know I have spoke to this before, just not sure if it was to you.  What Jesus spoke of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse not only began to take place in the disciples' day, but has continued to take place down through the corridors of history, even to our day.  Moreover, it will continue, even till the day that the 6th Seal is opened, which day marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  This corresponds to what Jesus said in the following verse, from Matthew 24:

And has taken place since the beginning of the world. Nothing had changed leading us to believe this prophecy is being fulfilled nor has been fulfilled. It's just a hope.

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

During the period of the Day of the Lord, Daniel's 70th Week will take place, which Jesus begins to speak to in the next verse...

There is zero proof the 6th seal begins the DOTL and it's the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. A of D comes before GT, comes before the DOTL. In order as follows:

"

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation...

21For at that time there will be great tribulation...

Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven...

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory...

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call...

they will gather His elect from the four winds...

"

No getting around this: A of D, GT, The Sign, His appearance, the loud trump, the gathering. 

No GT before the A of D, no Sign before GT and no gathering before GT. GT has not begun.

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

So just skip the parts that disprove your dogma?

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Continuing still in Matthew 24, the capstone of Daniel's 70th Week will be Christ's Second Coming, which Jesus speaks to in the following verses...

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Important to realize is that at this point, Jesus turns His attention to the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vss. 29-31), which corresponds to the opening of the 6th Seal.  Moreover, this is the focus of His attention throughout the rest of the chapter.  Concerning your statement, "it can't all happen in one generation",  that is true.  But, all who are a part of the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will be a part of the generation that can see "all these things" (vs. 33).  How in?  Just consider if the rapture happens today.  Thinking of those who are left who will ultimately come to Christ (rather than take the mark), they will be a part of the same generation that has seen the same things we have---all of which connects with what Jesus warned of in verses 5-14.  Also, these will be a part of the same generation that sees the rise of the A of D and everything related to Daniel's 70th Week.  Also, these will be a part of the same generation that sees everything that takes place with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Said another way, the generation that is alive at the time of the rapture will "see all these things" and not age 10 years before Christ's Second Advent.  Now, no generation that was alive in the 2nd century saw all these things.  Neither any generation in the 9th century, the 17th century, or our own century---so far.

You're truncating the prophecy to fit your needs. 

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Note that for your position, what Jesus says concerning "This generation" (vs. 34) would be quite an odd statement.  Why?  What He just got through saying concerning "all these things" (vs. 33) would have to include what He also just spoke of in verses 29-31.  Do you see it? 

Yeah. Pretty obvious. It's not an epiphany. It's what I have been saying all along. In the narrative, if you can follow along, all of it happens before the loud trump and the gathering, perfectly in sync with all end of the age prophecy;

"

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c 

and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming

on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and

they will gather His elect

from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The bold parts are the order of events. The 6th seal coincides with 29-30. Verse 31 is the 7th trumpet. I get you don't like it but it's written right there. The order is plain, your scenario is not.

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Verses 29-31 connect with the opening of the 6th Seal, and you have the 7th Trumpet and Christ's Second Advent happening concurrent/successive with this.  Remember what Jesus says in verse 32?  "Now learn a parable of the fig tree;  When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"  Question:  Why would Jesus be talking in terms of a "generation" if the rapture is going to happen concurrent/successive with His Second Advent?

Asking the same question again and again and expecting a different answer is a terrible waste. I have gone over the 'generation' idea and the successive/concurrence of the 6th seal and 7th trump. I get you reject it. So be it.

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

I know you have already seen my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  I would like to encourage you to look at it again (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Rightly divided in the guidance of the Spirit of Truth, is what is meant here. Not rightly divided by secular authors.

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

You make the statement, "You keep saying Matt 24:4-8 has nothing to do with the end of the age..."  When did I ever say that?  That has never been my position.  What Jesus speaks to His disciples of in the first section of His discourse (Matt. 24:4-14) will continue and/or hold true right up until the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Matt. 24:14), which could begin today.  Note that if it does, its beginning will be preceded just a little bit by "a great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31), which Paul refers to as the Trump of God.  It will be some months later before Daniel's 70th Week begins (Matt. 24:15;  Rev. 11:1;  II Thess. 2:3-4).  Further, it will be at the mid-point before the 7th Trumpet will be sounded. 

It is your position even if you won't admit it. You have half the prophecy in the last days separated from the end of the age which is characterized by Jesus arrival and the gathering. You say again and again the 4 horseman have been riding since the 1st century. This is tantamount to cleaving the prophecy in two, the halves unrelated.

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning the disciples' questions, just because they asked their questions according to their curiosity and concept of things, Jesus was not bound in any way to answer their questions according to the same criteria.  It was often very interesting the way Jesus answered questions that were asked of Him (e.g., Mk. 10:17-22;  Jn. 4:9-10).  The important thing is His reply, not the exactness of it to the question(s) posed.

The nadir of absurdity. He answered the questions concisely and to the point. Your reaching and it's getting tedious. What contortions you put yourself through to avoid the truth!

On 8/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, not an echo said:

What is it you think I have ignored?  

Everything. At this point...everything. 

 

[truth7t7]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, truth7t7.

Sorry, but the "antichrist" is not in Daniel 9 AT ALL! Not in verse 26 nor in verse 27! If Daniel had meant the "antichrist," he would have written "antichrist" or "against the Messiah" or "man of sin" or "man of lawlessness" or the "beast!" That's NOT who the "prince that cometh" was! He was Titus and the "people of the prince," the actual subject in this verse, were the Roman legions under his command. That happened in the FIRST Century, not the TWENTY-FIRST (or LATER) Century!

Furthermore, the contextual clues of this short 4-verse passage show that these "Weeks," or literally "Sevens" (Hebrew "shaaVu`iym"), were of years because of the vast time periods involved between "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (from DANIEL'S perspective) and "the arrival of the Messiah." In between, the streets and the moat are built "even in troublous times." All of this TAKES TIME to perform! MUCH more than a few short weeks!

Ezra 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia (Cyrus the Great, reigned from 559-530 B.C.), that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

2 "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia,

"'The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. 3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.'"

5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem. 6 And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.

7 Also Cyrus the king brought forth the vessels of the house of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had brought forth out of Jerusalem, and had put them in the house of his gods; 8 Even those did Cyrus king of Persia bring forth by the hand of Mithredath the treasurer, and numbered them unto Sheshbazzar, the prince of Judah. 9 And this is the number of them: thirty chargers of gold, a thousand chargers of silver, nine and twenty knives, 10 Thirty basons of gold, silver basons of a second sort four hundred and ten, and other vessels a thousand. 11 All the vessels of gold and of silver were five thousand and four hundred. All these did Sheshbazzar bring up with them of the captivity that were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem.

Consider Ezra 3:8-6:15 (I know, this is going to be a long quote. Bear with me.)

Ezra 3:8-6:15 (KJV)

8 Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD. 9 Then stood Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to set forward the workmen in the house of God: the sons of Henadad, with their sons and their brethren the Levites.

10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel. 11And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid. 12 But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy: 13 So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people: for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off.

1 Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the LORD God of Israel; 2 Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them,

"Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither."

3 But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them,

"Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us."

4 Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building, 5 And hired counsellers against them, to frustrate their purpose, all the days of Cyrus king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius king of Persia (Darius I, reigned from 522 to 486 B.C.).

6 And in the reign of Ahasuerus (Esther's husband, Xerxes I, reigned from 485 to 465 B.C.), in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem.

7 And in the days of Artaxerxes (Artaxerxes I, reigned from 465 to 424 B.C.) wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue.

8 Rehum the chancellor and Shimshai the scribe wrote a letter against Jerusalem to Artaxerxes the king in this sort: 9 Then wrote Rehum the chancellor, and Shimshai the scribe, and the rest of their companions; the Dinaites, the Apharsathchites, the Tarpelites, the Apharsites, the Archevites, the Babylonians, the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites, 10 And the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnappar brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest that are on this side the river, and at such a time. 11 This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king;

"Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time. 12 Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations. 13 Be it known now unto the king, that, if this city be builded, and the walls set up again, then will they not pay toll, tribute, and custom, and so thou shalt endamage the revenue of the kings. 14 Now because we have maintenance from the king's palace, and it was not meet for us to see the king's dishonour, therefore have we sent and certified the king; 15 That search may be made in the book of the records of thy fathers: so shalt thou find in the book of the records, and know that this city is a rebellious city, and hurtful unto kings and provinces, and that they have moved sedition within the same of old time: for which cause was this city destroyed. 16 We certify the king that, if this city be builded again, and the walls thereof set up, by this means thou shalt have no portion on this side the river."

17 Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river,

"Peace, and at such a time. 

18 "The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me. 19 And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein. 20 There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them. 

21 "Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me. 22 Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings?"

23 Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.

24 Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia (Darius II, reigned from 424 to 404 B.C.).

1 Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them. 2 Then rose up Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and began to build the house of God which is at Jerusalem: and with them were the prophets of God helping them.

3 At the same time came to them Tatnai, governor on this side the river, and Shetharboznai, and their companions, and said thus unto them,

"Who hath commanded you to build this house, and to make up this wall?"

4 Then said we unto them after this manner,

"What are the names of the men that make this building?"

5 But the eye of their God was upon the elders of the Jews, that they could not cause them to cease, till the matter came to Darius: and then they returned answer by letter concerning this matter.

6 The copy of the letter that Tatnai, governor on this side the river, and Shetharboznai, and his companions the Apharsachites, which were on this side the river, sent unto Darius the king: 7 They sent a letter unto him, wherein was written thus;

"Unto Darius the king, all peace. 8 Be it known unto the king, that we went into the province of Judea, to the house of the great God, which is builded with great stones, and timber is laid in the walls, and this work goeth fast on, and prospereth in their hands. 9 Then asked we those elders, and said unto them thus,

"'Who commanded you to build this house, and to make up these walls?'

10 "We asked their names also, to certify thee, that we might write the names of the men that were the chief of them. 11 And thus they returned us answer, saying,

"'We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth, and build the house that was builded these many years ago, which a great king of Israel builded and set up. 12 But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, he gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon. 13 But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God. 14 And the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that was in Jerusalem, and brought them into the temple of Babylon, those did Cyrus the king take out of the temple of Babylon, and they were delivered unto one, whose name was Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor; 15 And said unto him,

"' "Take these vessels, go, carry them into the temple that is in Jerusalem, and let the house of God be builded in his place."

16 "'Then came the same Sheshbazzar, and laid the foundation of the house of God which is in Jerusalem: and since that time even until now hath it been in building, and yet it is not finished.'

17 "Now therefore, if it seem good to the king, let there be search made in the king's treasure house, which is there at Babylon, whether it be so, that a decree was made of Cyrus the king to build this house of God at Jerusalem, and let the king send his pleasure to us concerning this matter."

1 Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. 2 And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written: 

3 "In the first year of Cyrus the king the same Cyrus the king made a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem,

"'Let the house be builded, the place where they offered sacrifices, and let the foundations thereof be strongly laid; the height thereof threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof threescore cubits; 4 With three rows of great stones, and a row of new timber: and let the expences be given out of the king's house: 5 And also let the golden and silver vessels of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took forth out of the temple which is at Jerusalem, and brought unto Babylon, be restored, and brought again unto the temple which is at Jerusalem, every one to his place, and place them in the house of God.'

6 "Now therefore, Tatnai, governor beyond the river, Shetharboznai, and your companions the Apharsachites, which are beyond the river, be ye far from thence: 7 Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place. 8 Moreover I make a decree what ye shall do to the elders of these Jews for the building of this house of God: that of the king's goods, even of the tribute beyond the river, forthwith expences be given unto these men, that they be not hindered. 9 And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: 10 That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savours unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons. 

11 "Also I have made a decree, that 'whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill (a public outhouse) for this! 12 And the God that hath caused his name to dwell there destroy all kings and people, that shall put to their hand to alter and to destroy this house of God which is at Jerusalem.'

"I Darius have made a decree; let it be done with speed!"

13 Then Tatnai, governor on this side the river, Shetharboznai, and their companions, according to that which Darius the king had sent, so they did speedily! 14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia (Artaxerxes II, reigned from 404 to 358 B.C.). 15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king (Darius II, 419-418 B.C.).

(Artaxerxes II was mentioned, probably because he was the son and heir of Darius II, and Darius II included him to be sure the project was enforced if he didn't live to see the end of the project.)

My point is this: From the time that Cyrus the Great issued his decree in 559 B.C. to the time when the Temple actually was finished in 419 B.C., we have a difference of 140 years! This is based upon Wikipedia's List of monarchs of Persia and this passage of Scripture. Whether this is the date of the decree, I don't know. It may have been later when Cyrus the Great captured Babylon 0n October 12, 539 B.C. That would make it more like 120 years, but it certainly was not finished in 3 or 7 years!

In any case, THIS is the time periods in question, not in the End Times! These are Sevens ("Shaavu`iym") of years, not mere days.

I disagree with your preterist claims of Titus fulfilling Daniel 9