Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

On 4/7/2022 at 12:38 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I've read your preceding post and I do have some thoughts on it that I want to respond to, but for now, I'm still wanting to do some catching up.  I don't know about you, but when I get to skipping back and forth, sometimes it takes me a while to figure out where I was!   I apologize if sometimes I'm not very punctual, but I'm doing about the best I can with the time I have.  About any time I look in on the forum, I have to neglect something else, and if I opt to do the "something else,"  I have to neglect the forum!   Hey, and I enjoy the forum (wish I could give more time to it), but it sure is easy for time to get away from me here.

not a problem.

 

On 4/7/2022 at 12:38 PM, not an echo said:

Annnyway, while I am desirous to stay on track with the focus of this thread, I would like to make just a couple of comments on your above reply.  Concerning your second sentence, I don't see the numerical time frames given in Scripture being cut short without the prophecies relating to them reflecting this.  Rather, within the framework of the prophesied time frames, the amount of day and nighttime light will be affected, or shortened by one-third (Rev. 8:12).  I can certainly see this making it possible for many to survive that wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

Who said anything about numerical time frames? I didn't. I didn't even say anything was cut short, Jesus did.

" 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Those are Jesus' words. You don't like that you'll have to ask Him about it.

Matt 24:22 is in reference to one thing and one thing only, GT. Look. And please listen.

1)So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a 

described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath.

2)For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

3)If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

"That's a simple progression of an overall timeline from A of D to GT. Two items in order: A of D, GT.

Even as it appears Matt 24:22 is simply ignored it's essential to understanding what is going on. 

What then is cut short? It can't be the week or any of the other established times of 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, etc. They all must run the duration as it's stated there is a duration. Only one all important length of duration is not stated, that of GT. From the text it's easy to see v 22 is speaking to the duration of great tribulation.

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short." If we remove the parenthetical we get

"For at that time there will be great tribulation. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

So the days of GT are cut short. Cut short from what? Well we only have the last half of the week at this point from which to subtract. We are past the A of D and as was proven by the other post the A of D happens at the midpoint [the beast rules for 42 months till Jesus returns] and so have to conclude the days of GT are shortened from the last half of the week. So at some undetermined moment the GT is ended, short of the full duration of the last half of the week.

Now v 29 brings out real understanding and bears heavily on the timeline and the timing of the seals and trumps. 

Jesus return is set for "Immediately after the tribulation of those days:" And those days begin with the A of D at the midpoint and end at some time only the Father knows short of the end of the week. 

Any timeline or timing of events that doesn't consider this inescapable fact is in all points incorrect, imo.

So to relate this to the 6th seal and the 7th trump then, the 6th seal of Jesus return happens prior to the end of week. The 7th Trump then also happens here as it's also the time when Jesus takes power, wrath begins, the saints are rewarded and the nations destroyed.

Again, as I have said numerous times; the 6th seal and the 7th trump are in conjunction and that means the loud trump, last trump, and trump of God are all the 7th trump with various attributes.

I mean really....what other 'last trump' do you know in scripture that's associated with Jesus coming, the gathering, wrath, the end of the age, and GT? There isn't one. Just the one. And it's the 7th trump of Revelation.

 

On 4/7/2022 at 12:38 PM, not an echo said:

On your replies concerning what I said about hope, of course God and His promises are the sure Hope (noun), but often we don't hope (verb) in Him or His promises as we should.  Why would God's children be enjoined to "hope to the end" (I Pet. 1:13) if one's hope was not subject to waning?

I don't know...loving encouragement? That's usually apt no matter when it's given for whatever reason. 

[not an echo]

On 8/30/2021 at 2:45 AM, Kelly2363 said:

On 8/29/2021 at 10:40 PM, not an echo said:

Where then do you put the vials?"

 

I would put them between the Lord returning in the clouds and appearing on the clouds. 42 months of great tribulation. 

Hello Kelly,

I certainly didn't mean to put you off for so long.   In my prioritizing of my time, I have just felt compelled to work on some other threads, especially one that I developed to help minimize distractions from this and other threads that I have.

Concerning what you quoted of me above, I had asked this of Diaste so that I could better understand his position.  If I am understanding you correctly, your reply is pretty well where I am at, only I would add near to the end rather than merely between.

A little more precisely, and kinda borrowing from your words, I would put them between the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and Christ's Second Advent, but very, very close to the end of the last 42 months of Daniel's 70th Week.  Also, I understand the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" to occur when the Church is gathered (i.e., raptured), which happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16/Matt. 24:30-31).  This "sign of the Son of man in heaven" will happen in conjunction with the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Rev. 6:17), at least "five months" (Rev. 9:5-10) and seven years (Rev. 11:2-3) before Christ's Second Advent.  Moreover, the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31 is the same trumpet that Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Edited May 6, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/31/2021 at 1:38 AM, Kelly2363 said:

On 8/31/2021 at 1:11 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

It saddens me to hear you say this.  And, how to respond???  I don't want to just say nothing, because for me, that would be like just not caring.  And sometimes, a lot of time can be spent trying to give a helpful response, which just ends up buried in a thread to never be seen again.  So, I determined to start another thread, this one related to my experience(s) and some thoughts I have had on the importance of church attendance.

There is a big part of me, and I mean a big part, that can empathize with you and your above statement Diaste.  I can see myself there when I was 25, only my statement at that time would have been more along the line of "Church?  And be hurt again?  No thanks."  Over the decades, I've seen a lot that wasn't right in churches.  But, at 25, I realized in a big way that there was also a lot that wasn't right with a lot of other things in this world.  And, at 25, I had seen enough of it that I guess God felt it was a good time to get my attention with the inspiration to give Him the same chance that I have given the world.  I've been doing that now for 38 years, and part of giving God the same chance that I had given the world was in giving the things of God that same chance too.  I soon discovered that I had been given to making allowances for a lot of other things that were hurting me a lot worse than church attendance ever had (or would).  Now, as I look back, I can see how that God has used the local church to help me far more than anything else that this world has to offer that I was ever caught up in.  It was at a local church, during Vacation Bible School, that I received Christ as my Savior when I was 10 years old.  And, at 25, when I was at my bottom, it was at my old home church that God got my attention with that inspiration to give Him the same chance I had given the world.  I've been doing that now for 38 years and it has been such a learning and growing experience for me.  I hope you will seriously consider my newest thread.  Your statement above is a big reason I took the time to work it up.  I have entitled it, An Importance of Faithfulness to a Local Church (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/270091-an-importance-of-faithfulness-to-a-local-church/).

 

Also, I haven't forgot about that thread I spoke of starting concerning Joel's prophecies and the Day of the Lord.  I just haven't had time to work it up.  Partly because of you.   Maybe in the next few days...

 

Somewhat randomly - In another place - are you saying that your nation will be left behind in the parousia? If you are then I want you to know that I am reading your website today and I am also reading your link above and the gravity in that meaning regarding the necessity of being part of a local church. As I say - somewhat random!

Concerning your question, this is not something I have said or meant.  I think you may be alluding to something I have said about the sounding of the first four trumpets and the possibility that the "third part" (Rev. 8:7-12) destruction at that time could be what is in our Western Hemisphere---a possibility that has long engaged my thinking and makes for several very interesting possibilities.  I hope you will look at my thread on this subject, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Also, most of my threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Following is a link to my master thread by that title.  In the second post of that thread, I keep a running list of the threads I have developed so far, which relate to my different interpretation.

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/)

[not an echo]

On 9/21/2021 at 2:14 AM, Kelly2363 said:

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, not an echo said:

We know that much is prophesied in Daniel.  Interesting to me is that after Revelation 10, which focuses upon the "little book open" (vs. 2), the first thing that we see concerns two 3-1/2 year periods (Rev. 11:2-3).

“Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Can you explain how this reference represents two distinct periods - as opposed to a continuation in meaning to the same period. Particularly in light of this:

And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. Revelations 11:10-11

Concisely, it's a matter of...

1.   Recognizing the first mention of two 3-1/2 year periods in The Revelation.

2.  Consideration of the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week.

3.  Recognizing the "little book" now "open" in the preceding chapter (Rev. 10) being the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

4.  Seeing the worship going on in Revelation 11:1 being toward the Antichrist (cp. Matt. 24:15;  Dan. 9:27;  II Thess. 2:3-4).

5.  Noting the continuation of thought relating to the 3-1/2 years of Revelation 11:3 with verses 4-13, said to be over in verse 14.

6.  Noting the repeated mention again of the other or last 3-1/2 years in Revelation 12:6, 14 and 13:5.

7.  Recognizing that the 3-1/2 years mentioned in Revelation 11:2 would concern the last half of the seven years (Lk. 21:20-24).

Edited April 10, 2022 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/30/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/29/2021 at 10:40 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

So, after the 7th Seal is opened in 8:1, you think it is not the seven angels which are given seven trumpets, which is what John speaks of next and what we see in the next verse (8:2), but you "have a hunch it's the moment before wrath is poured out..."?  So, you think it is not the seven angels which are given the seven trumpets, nor the sounding of the 1st Trumpet, or the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th trumpets, but rather the pouring out of the vials of wrath?  You say to me, "Fill the gap if you wish. I won't go there."  Well Diaste, aren't you taking out what is in the gap between 8:1 and "the moment before wrath is poured out" and putting something else there?

Indeed I am but I am not filling it unequivocally. The problem is all that is written is "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. " I don't feel I should add to this when the 7th seal is a moment of silence as written. It's not wrath, it's not trumps, it's silence. What follows this is not clear here. It's not the trumps as demonstrated elsewhere and  cannot be. So my gut tells me wrath is coming as shown in the 6th seal.

Hello Diaste,

I can't help that I'm not even in the proximity of understanding things as you do.  You make the statement, "The problem is all that is written is 'When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.'"  Indeed, this is all that is written in that particular verse (Rev. 8:1), but this is by no means all that is written.  If there were no verse divisions---which John did not put there in the first place---what he wrote would look more like the following...

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.  And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up..."

You make the statement, "I don't feel I should add to this when the 7th seal is a moment of silence as written."  Why do you feel you would be adding to anything?  You say, "It's not wrath, it's not trumps, it's silence."  No.  It's just silence before the angels are given the seven trumpets.  You say, "What follows this is not clear here."  No Diaste, what follows is very clear.  You say, "It's not the trumps as demonstrated elsewhere and cannot be."  Whatever it is that has gotten you to thinking this, you cannot just up and dismiss what is glaringly apparent in favor of something that is not.  Whatever you are believing, it has got to fit here as well.  As I have often said about puzzle pieces, it is not enough that one side of one piece appears to fit well with the side of another piece.  All the pieces have to fit on every side.

You say, "So my gut tells me wrath is coming as shown in the 6th seal."  The way you scrutinize and scorn me for merely using the words "I believe..." about something,  I'm certainly glad it was not me that said such a thing as "my gut tells me"!  I wonder, do you think perhaps that it is what "my gut tells me" that causes me to believe what I believe about something in Scripture?  You say you "have a hunch" about something, yet you scrutinize and scorn my use of words like, "as I see things shape up in Scripture"?  You should lighten up Diaste and hold yourself to the same rule(s) you seek to impose upon me and others.  Yes, I understand what you mean my friend, but the way you make it sound sometimes, the only one that has a valid and noble reason for their position is you.  Anyway, what has happened here, the way I see it , is that you have went down a path that has you concluding that it is not the trumpets that John saw after the opening of the 7th Seal---after all---but the vials.  Where else does John do such a thing as you would have him here doing?

In his account of the letters that Jesus instructed him to send to the seven churches, we find the church named, and then what the message was to be for that church.  This pattern holds the same for the first church, the second church, and the third through the seventh church.  When it comes to what the seals concerned, the 1st Seal is removed, and then John writes of what he saw.  The 2nd Seal is removed, and then John writes of what he saw.  The 3rd through the 6th seals are removed, and then John writes of what he saw, accordingly.  And when the 7th Seal is removed, John then writes of what he saw.  When it comes to what the trumpets concerned, the 1st Trumpet is sounded, and then John writes of what he saw.  The 2nd Trumpet is sounded, and then John writes of what he saw.  Same with the 3rd through the 7th trumpets.  And, when it comes to what the vials concerned, same thing.  I don't see that the structure of The Revelation affords one the liberty for the position you have here taken.  Not even close.

On 8/30/2021 at 5:12 AM, Diaste said:

All that's left according to what I see is the vials follow the 6th seal. The vials are wrath as stated and wrath is mentioned at the 6th seal and the 7th trump.

As you know the scriptures point out trumps and seals have a successive/concurrent relationship and culminate with the 6th seal and 7th trump. The 7th seal would then be the moment of silence before the horror of wrath contained in the vials. 

Concerning your first paragraph, a much simpler understanding is that the period of the Day of the Lord will begin on the day that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:17) and will include what John saw with the sounding of the seven trumpets, the pouring out of the seven vials, Christ's Second Advent, His Millennial Reign, the destruction of this present world, and the Last Judgment.  Said another way, this period of the Day of the Lord concerns what all is slated for this world before God brings it to its end.  And, this is expounded from Revelation chapter eight through chapter twenty.  Mankind needs to take serious notice that one of these days---much like today---the Day of the Lord is going to abruptly begin.  Furthermore, on the day it begins---just before it begins---there is going to be "a great sound of a trumpet" and the Lord is going to "send His angels" to "gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31;  I Cor. 15:51-52;  I Thess. 4:16-5:3).  Now, if this were not the Lord's plan, He would give to the members of His body (His Church) the grace and strength for whatever His plan is to be!  But, according to Scripture, this is His plan.  And, while it is not going to be a good thing to not be a part of His Church on the day He has His angels to gather it out, He has a plan for those who turn to Him during the subsequent time as well---but that's a different subject.

Concerning the first sentence of your second paragraph, I don't know why you would say, "As you know" for you know that what you have put forth is not in accord with my understanding.  I know, I know---you are just trying to make me cringe again.

Concerning the last sentence of your second paragraph, my gut is telling me I believe that I need to just go on and say it this way:  Your understanding is in hopeless and serious conflict with Scripture.  It is the beginning of the sounding of the seven trumpets that John sees after the opening of the 7th Seal---beginning with the 1st Trumpet.  It is not "the horror of wrath contained in the vials."

P.S.  I struck through that little part in the preceding paragraph because, after I thought about it, I didn't want to start being an echo.   I can't help thinking about what I'm going to do to you---one very fine day---when I catch you with your back turned to me when we are standing by the Crystal River...

Don't ever forget this Diaste:  In our times of discussing what we feel is the correct understanding of what has been revealed to us in Scripture about the last days, the main thing will be to be ready---come what may.  Of course, there is the need to help others to see the need to be ready as well...

Edited May 6, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 9/24/2021 at 3:58 PM, The Light said:

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, not an echo said:

As I indicated in my previous post, I cannot see mixing the Seals and the Trumpets as you do.

I am not sure what you mean. I do not mix the Seals and Trumpets. The seals go in order and then the trumpets go in order. After the 7th trumpet is blown, the wrath of God is over. That's the end. Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. ie The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Wrath is over, it's finished. Then the story starts over. We get a different view. What you see in Rev 13 and 14 are things that occur during the tribulation. We are back in the seals. 

Example.

The two football teams played hard. Both offenses moved the ball easily with little defensive resistance. The team in blue jerseys won the game and the cars filed out of the parking lot.

One team ran better and the other team had a better passing game. The band came onto the field and marched with precision. The final score was 48-45.

This the way Revelation is written. 

The seals and trumpets occur in order. Then we get a different view of the seals in Rev 13 and 14. Then vials are just a different view of things that happen during the wrath of God.

In the example you see two teams played football. One team wins and the cars leave the parking lot. The game is over, just as the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Then we get another view of things that happened during the game, ie one team ran better and the other passed better. Then we see the band the field and finally we get final score.

It's only one game being described just as there is only wrath of God and tribulation. 

Hello Zero Turn,

I'm sorry I had to put you on hold for so long, but I never forgot about you!  The last time we talked, mowing season was about over, and now it's time to start again.  My, how time flies...and grass grows! 

Concerning your first two paragraphs, I said what I did because I see all of Revelation chapters 12-20 as expounding the 7th Trumpet period.  What John records in 11:15-19 is just a concise overview of this period.  I by no means see "Rev 13 and 14" as having us "back in the seals."  However, I do see all of chapters 8-20 as being related to the 7th Seal, in as much as all of this is part of what is going to take place when that last seal is removed and the Seven Sealed Book is opened.

Concerning your last sentence, what you say about "It's only one game being described" resonates with me, as I see the Day of the Lord as what is being described.  Borrowing from your football game illustration, as with a football game, it is just one game, but it is made up of many plays, multiple quarters, and other breaks in the action.  My understanding of the last days' DOTL is that it will begin on the day that the 6th Seal is opened, which I also believe is the same day that the 7th Seal will be opened.  In other words, the 6th and 7th seals will be opened the same day.  I have long believed that THE DAY OF THE LORD would be a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book, as everything within its covers (chps. 8-20) pertains to the Day of the Lord.  Consider my thread, A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/).  The DOTL will continue through God's destruction of this present world and the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), just before that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His saved (Rev. 21-22).

On 9/24/2021 at 3:58 PM, The Light said:

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, not an echo said:

What you say concerning God's wrath and there being only one wrath seems to me to put too much of a strait-jacket on things. 

No brother. You have to read what the words say. You have to understand there is only one wrath of God. It ends at the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Wrath is over and Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet. 

Then you get a different view with more information. Still only one wrath of God, just as there was one game above, just as there is only one flood in Genesis 6

I hope you will continue to look at my understanding from a "Day of the Lord" perspective.  There are a lot of things that are going to take place during the DOTL, which will often be characterized by times of God's wrath.

On 9/24/2021 at 3:58 PM, The Light said:

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, not an echo said:

 

With the opening of the 6th Seal, those still upon the earth are saying, "for the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17).  It will be easy for mankind to see that the Day of the Lord has come, but this will just be the beginning of what is going to take place. 

Exactly

This tells me that we are understanding at least similarly concerning my previous reply.

On 9/24/2021 at 3:58 PM, The Light said:

On 9/21/2021 at 1:45 AM, not an echo said:

For me, the pieces of the prophetic puzzle come together in a very, very interesting way when understood as I have come to understand things.  I feel that if I understood more of your complete view, I might see where you are coming from a little clearer.  For now, as far as this thread is concerned, we are at least in agreement that the Trump of God is not the 7th Trumpet.  I'm hoping more will come to see this, or at least recognize the possibility and how things come together with this understanding.

What I do different than most people is I accept the Word exactly as it is presented.  When we are told the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, it means exactly what it says. Christ has returned and set up His kingdom on earth. The wrath of God is over. The dead are judged and rewards are given to the righteous.

I believe chapters 12-20 are better understood as expounding what the period of the 7th Trumpet includes, previewed in 11:15-19.  Moreover, I don't see how my understanding of this expounding would conflict with what you say in your second sentence.  For example, after Christ's Second Advent (which will be a day of wrath) and the time of His Millennial Reign (which will be His glorious reign upon this present earth), we see His wrath again, this time upon "Gog and Magog" (Rev. 20:7-9).  Again, borrowing from your football game analogy, when ESPN news comes on and a short preview is given of the big game results (i.e., Rev. 11:15-19), the fans are going to want to know all about it and will be anticipating the big story as the broadcast continues (i.e., Rev. 12-20).

Edited May 6, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

I can't help that I'm not even in the proximity of understanding things as you do.  You make the statement, "The problem is all that is written is 'When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.'"  Indeed, this is all that is written in that particular verse (Rev. 8:1), but this is by no means all that is written.  If there were no verse divisions---which John did not put there in the first place---what he wrote would look more like the following...

It is literally all that is contained in the whole of scripture concerning the 7th seal except for what's in Rev 5. 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.  And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up..."

Yes. But let's look at a contrast that I feel is telling right in Rev 8:1-5, like you referenced above.

1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 

And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.

He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth;

and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

"

"And I saw" it not an indicator of succession. 'Then' is. So John sees the 7th seal opened. John records, 'And I saw the seven angels...' Then what follows the 7th the opening of the 7th seal is:

Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar.

He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.

5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth;

and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The angel with the golden censer that stood by the altar and offered, then took the censer and filled it and hurled it to earth is what flows from the 7th seal. It cannot be said the incense, prayer and the rising smoke, filling the censer, and hurling fire to earth and then the peals, rumblings, lightning and the earthquake come from the 7 trumps. We know for sure this must be the 7th seal as it's a direct result after the opening of the seal. 

When John sees the 7 angels no action flows, he just saw them. But there is action of the altar angel and that doesn't come from the trumps, it can only come as a result of the 7th seal as we see the actions and results of the trumps beginning in Rev 8:7.

Also v. 5 looks strikingly similar to other verses.

Rev 8:5 7th seal

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

Rev 16:18 7th Bowl

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds eacha rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." 

Rev 11:19 7th Trump

" And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

I guess you can say all three examples above happen at different times at the end, but I cannot. They are too similar and look like the same event. 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

You make the statement, "I don't feel I should add to this when the 7th seal is a moment of silence as written."  Why do you feel you would be adding to anything?  You say, "It's not wrath, it's not trumps, it's silence."  No.  It's just silence before the angels are given the seven trumpets.  You say, "What follows this is not clear here."  No Diaste, what follows is very clear.  You say, "It's not the trumps as demonstrated elsewhere and cannot be."  Whatever it is that has gotten you to thinking this, you cannot just up and dismiss what is glaringly apparent in favor of something that is not.  Whatever you are believing, it has got to fit here as well.  As I have often said about puzzle pieces, it is not enough that one side of one piece appears to fit well with the side of another piece.  All the pieces have to fit on every side.

The only action that occurs after the opening of the 7th seal directly from the seal and before the trumps sound is in Rev 8:3-5. 

"And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.". The only action here is the giving of the trumps if, the giving happens here and is not just a description of the group of 7 stating they had trumps and not that the trumps were bestowed at that moment. Now is the giving of these trumps a result of the opening of the 7th seal? I do not know that and from Rev 8:1-5 I cannot know that.

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

You say, "So my gut tells me wrath is coming as shown in the 6th seal."  The way you scrutinize and scorn me for merely using the words "I believe..." about something,  I'm certainly glad it was not me that said such a thing as "my gut tells me"!  I wonder, do you think perhaps that it is what "my gut tells me" that causes me to believe what I believe about something in Scripture?  You say you "have a hunch" about something, yet you scrutinize and scorn my use of words like, "as I see things shape up in Scripture"?  You should lighten up Diaste and hold yourself to the same rule(s) you seek to impose upon me and others.  Yes, I understand what you mean my friend, but the way you make it sound sometimes, the only one that has a valid and noble reason for their position is you.  Anyway, what has happened here, the way I see it , is that you have went down a path that has you concluding that it is not the trumpets that John saw after the opening of the 7th Seal---after all---but the vials.  Where else does John do such a thing as you would have him here doing?

Did I say that? I did a search of the last couple pages and I don't see where I said "So my gut tells me wrath is coming as shown in the 6th seal." Maybe I did. 

But that's not what I'm doing, elevating my position over any other. 'I believe it to be' is often used as the justification to assert a position as factual when it's only a dogmatic stance. That not what I'm doing. I'm speculating in the face of the many gaps in the prophetic narrative. A gut feeling and a suspicion that something is or isn't is not the same as a firm belief.

And when I point out the difference between what the scriptures say and a belief in a person it's to contrast the facts with personal belief. I don't take the scriptures to say anything other than what they say. 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

In his account of the letters that Jesus instructed him to send to the seven churches, we find the church named, and then what the message was to be for that church.  This pattern holds the same for the first church, the second church, and the third through the seventh church.  When it comes to what the seals concerned, the 1st Seal is removed, and then John writes of what he saw.  The 2nd Seal is removed, and then John writes of what he saw.  The 3rd through the 6th seals are removed, and then John writes of what he saw, accordingly.  And when the 7th Seal is removed, John then writes of what he saw.  When it comes to what the trumpets concerned, the 1st Trumpet is sounded, and then John writes of what he saw.  The 2nd Trumpet is sounded, and then John writes of what he saw.  Same with the 3rd through the 7th trumpets.  And, when it comes to what the vials concerned, same thing.  I don't see that the structure of The Revelation affords one the liberty for the position you have here taken.  Not even close.

To iterate:

Rev 8:5 7th seal

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

Rev 16:18 7th Bowl

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake the likes of which had not occurred since men were upon the earth—so mighty was the great quake. And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds eacha rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous." 

Rev 11:19 7th Trump

" And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

I guess you can say all three examples above happen at different times at the end, but I cannot. They are too similar and look like the same event. 

This isn't a liberty. This is what is written. 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your first paragraph, a much simpler understanding is that the period of the Day of the Lord will begin on the day that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:17) and will include what John saw with the sounding of the seven trumpets, the pouring out of the seven vials, Christ's Second Coming, Christ's Millennial Reign, the destruction of this present world, and the Last Judgment.  Said another way, this period of the Day of the Lord concerns what all is slated for this world before God brings it to its end.  And, this is expounded from Revelation chapter eight through chapter twenty.  Mankind needs to take serious notice that one of these days---much like today---the Day of the Lord is going to abruptly begin.  Furthermore, on the day it begins---just before it begins---there is going to be "a great sound of a trumpet" and the Lord is going to "send His angels" to "gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31;  I Cor. 15:51-52;  I Thess. 4:16-5:3).  Now, if this were not the Lord's plan, He would give to the members of His body (His Church) the grace and strength for whatever His plan is to be!  But, according to Scripture, this is His plan.  And, while it is not going to be a good thing to not be a part of His Church on the day He has His angels to gather it out, He has a plan for those who turn to Him during the subsequent time as well---but that's a different subject.

Umm...except for the sound of a great trump is the 7th trump. 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning the first sentence of your second paragraph, I don't know why you would say, "As you know" for you know that what you have put forth is not in accord with my understanding.  I know, I know---you are just trying to make me cringe again.

Pretty sure that was a reference to a scripture. Hardly cringe worthy.

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning the last sentence of your second paragraph, my gut is telling me I believe that I need to just go on and say it this way:  Your understanding is in hopeless and serious conflict with Scripture.  It is the beginning of the sounding of the seven trumpets that John sees after the opening of the 7th Seal---beginning with the 1st Trumpet.  It is not "the horror of wrath contained in the vials."

Sure, sure. I'm always wrong. Till I'm not. 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:46 AM, not an echo said:

 

Don't ever forget this Diaste:  In our times of discussing what we feel is the correct understanding of what has been revealed to us in Scripture about the last days, the main thing will be to be ready---come what may.  Of course, there is the need to help others to see the need to be ready as well...

True.

[not an echo]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Listen, in all seriousness, I grew up under the tutelage of the common pre-trib view.  I have often heard it's scholars state that Christ's Olivet Discourse does not pertain to the era of the Church.  But, I always struggled with this and finally came to a place that I just have to disagree.  Now, I promise not to feel too hard at you for disagreeing with me, if you won't feel too hard at me for disagreeing with you.  Well, I ain't gonna feel too hard at you anyway, unless you start acting all uppity cause you got a zero turn and I don't.

The description by Jesus of wars and rumors of war, famine, pestilence and death, the great tribulation and the sign of His coming are EXACTLY what John is talking about in the 1st 6 seals. Jesus and John agree and neither is talking about the Church age as it is over before the seals are opened.

Concerning your last sentence (beginning with "and neither..."), in light of all the relevant scriptures and what has characterized 20 centuries of history, my understanding brings all the prophetic puzzle pieces together for me in a way that fits much better than this.  But then, I may be a little partial to my understanding.  But then again, I understand more of what I am understanding than I do of what you are understanding, if you understand. 

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Me, I just got the "I can't help its" about what Jesus said for openers in His discourse and what all has happened from as early as the first century.  I mean, we do not have to look to events yet future to find fulfillment of what He warned was going to be happening.  It has been fulfilled and is being fulfilled even now in our day. 

None of it has been fulfilled brother. We can prove that here. Read EXACTLY what is written.

Luke 21

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

If the events have already occurred in the 1st century as you suggest, WHAT SIGN was there when these things happened? They have not happened.

They asked Jesus a direct question. When shall these things be. (When there will not be one stone upon another). Then they asked for the sign of when these things will happen.

It's like me asking you a question. Hey Zero Turn, did you see the 1st NFL game this season? I missed the game. Could you tell me about it? Do you think my answer will sound like this? 

Well Cub Tractor, the NFL began on August 20, 1920. There have been many rule changes and equipment modifications throughout the years. The NFL also merged with the AFL......ETC.

Do you think Jesus answered the question they asked or gave them a world history lesson. And like I said, if you think the events happened in the 1st century, then what was the sign when these things came to pass?

Concerning the way you expressed your reply, I would first like to re-clarify that I do not see what Jesus said (e.g., Matt. 24:4-14) as having been fulfilled, but "as having been fulfilled and as being fulfilled even now in our day."

Concerning the stones of the temple, I know there is controversy concerning the Wailing Wall and if these stones were actually a part of the temple.  But, Jesus says more about this than what He says in any of the accounts of His Olivet Discourse.  Consider afresh from Luke 19...

41 And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

In light of what Jesus says here, perhaps all the stones actually considered to be temple stones were  thrown down.  I cannot say what the fact of the matter is on this.  But, all the stones of "the city" have not yet been, for the Wailing Wall is still standing---something that has engaged the thinking of the both of us.

Now, if the disciples took what Jesus said in Matthew 24:2 concerning the temple and "one stone upon another" as connecting with "the end of the world" (Matt. 24:3), as their questioning indicates, this is something that we need to consider---especially if it was not.  I mean, did what Jesus say concerning the temple stones connect with the "end of the world" or with what happened in 70 A.D.?  Personally, I have no real problem accepting that what He told His disciples did indeed connect somewhat with what happened in 70 A.D., but there was to be much more.  And He tells them about it.  Further, I believe we both agree that before all this thing is done, there won't be a single stone of even the Wailing Wall that will be left "upon another" (Lk. 19:44).

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

 

The continued fulfilling of what Jesus said about deceivers and false Christs, about wars and rumors of wars, about famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, and about the persecution and martyrdom His followers would face is remarkable. 

These are the 1st 6 seals that John talked about. It only makes sense that what Jesus told us would happen at the end would agree with Johns Revelation.

There's other things too, but how do you square your conclusion (e.g., "at the end") with the opening three verses of The Revelation?

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

  Concerning wars, Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that these would, in our generation, be considered something of the long distant past, but it's not quite that way, is it?  Also, modern man (with much pride) could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of the earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Further, Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established.  Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Isn't that something?  Things could have turned out such that of Jesus Christ, history would bear out that He didn't know what He was talking about.  What do you think?  I think Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  Well, He was "the carpenter's son" (Matt. 13:55)!

I think Jesus gives the Jews a description of what is going to happen when one stone is not upon another and the events of the 70th week of Daniel, just as John gives us the exact same story in the 6 seals.

Not forgetting what I have already spoke to, Jesus is talking to "Jews" who happened to be His disciples---the pillars of His New Testament Church.  Further, Daniel's 70th Week is not spoke of in The Revelation until 11:1-3, just after John sees the "little book open" in the preceding chapter (10:1ff), which is the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10), just after the final touches of what I refer to as the stage reset for the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th Week.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

In my thinking, Jesus' Olivet Discourse is sandwiched in evidences that it pertained not only to Daniel's 70th Week, but also to the era of the Church.  To begin, what He spoke was in response to His disciple's questions, and they were to be the pillars of His Church!  Moreover, from the get-go, He used second person pronouns when He talked to them about what all was going to be happening.  I mean, what He said that some were going to see and experience was inclusive of them---and by extension---all of us who are a part of the Church.

The Church will not be on earth when the seals are opened. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. We know that part of Israel will not have their eyes opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Again, according to my understanding of Scripture, the Church will be on Earth until the 6th Seal is opened.  The first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century, and the four horsemen---Satan's henchmen---have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since, insatiably doing what they are bent on doing.  The 5th Seal may be opened now, and I believe it is.  For me, there are way too many evidences that Daniel's 70th Week will not begin until after Revelation 10, as evidenced in the first verse of chapter 11 (cp. Matt. 24:15 and II Thess. 2:3-4).

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

If what He was talking about only pertained to the time of the end, why would He have pointed out that when they heard of "wars and rumours of wars" that they should not be troubled, "for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24:6).

He is talking to the Jews and telling them what will happen when the 70th week occurs. Nothing at all to do with the Church. They are already in heaven.

IMHO, He's talking to the pillars of His Church about what they and subsequent generations of His followers are going to face until the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which, in harmony with The Revelation, will happen in the time between what Jesus says in Matthew 24:14 and 24:15.  I refer to this event as the Intersecting Event of Christ's Sign Appearance.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Consider also what Jesus' said at the end of His discourse, according to Mark's account, in chapter 13:

 33  Take ye heed, watch and pray:  for ye know not when the time is.

 34  For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left His house, and gave authority to HIS SERVANTS, and to every man His work, and commanded the porter to watch.

 35  WATCH YE THEREFORE:  for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

 36  Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping.

 37  And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Something quite revealing here is Jesus' reference to "His servants" and what He says of Himself and them in verse 34.  His servants would be His disciples and all of His followers of the Christian era.  This should establish that in His Olivet Discourse, Jesus has His Church in mind too.  Before He took His "far journey" (vs. 34), Jesus gave a special "work" to each of His disciples, and again, by extension, to everyone who would become a part of His Church.  That work is summed up in His Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).

Jesus pinpoints His coming to immediately after the tribulation. That's for the Jews. What's for the Church. He is coming in a day and hour that you think not. Two raptures.

The way you have worded your first sentence, I would agree, but I don't believe you are seeing this as I do.  I take "the tribulation" to be that that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:4-14, or what will happen before the Day of the Lord will begin (i.e., "and then shall the end come"/vs. 14).  I believe you take "the tribulation" to be Daniel's 70th Week.  Look again at the illustration I gave with my previous reply.  What I refer to as the Intersecting Event of Christ's Sign Appearance happens with the opening of the 6th Seal---immediately after "the tribulation" brought upon the Church by Satan through his four henchmen (Matt. 24:4-14;  Rev. 6:1-11/first five seals) and immediately before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, of which Daniel's 70th Week (Matt. 24:15-28;  Rev. 11:1-19:21) is a part.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Is there a reason why you think these make up the Church and not the saved who would have been in Heaven from the time of Adam through John's day?  We can certainly rightly suppose that John would have seen them there.

The 24 elders say that they come out of every tribe on earth and that we are kings and priests. And yet it all happens before the seals are opened. 

Not sure how you see what you say to negate what I said.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

First of all, Jesus made the statement of verse 6, then the disciples asked him, "Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall some to pass?" (vs. 7).  In Matthew's account, when they ask Him concerning "the sign" (24:3), He later tells them, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven..." (24:30).  Much supports that Jesus is going to make a sign appearance before His actual Second Coming, and that it will be after this that the end will come---according to my understanding---a few months more than seven years later.

Jesus appear to the world at the 6th seal which is the same coming as what we see in Matthew 24. He comes at the end of the tribulation. THEN the wrath of God begins and Jesus returns with his armies and sets up His kingdom on earth....the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

I'm kinda confused by what you are saying.  It seems like you are saying that Jesus comes at the end of Daniel's 70th Week, THEN the wrath of God begins, THEN Jesus returns with His armies.  Just trying to get a little better handle on exactly what you are saying.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Now, I have never said anything about this on this forum, but I have often wondered myself concerning something that I noticed you to say.  That part about, "and there is still one stone upon another."  I truly believe that more attention should be given to this than there has been.   Normally, it is concluded that Jesus was only talking about the temple stones.  And, there are discussions about whether the wall was considered a part of the temple or not.  Well, consider this that Jesus said, speaking of (actually to) the city in Luke 19:

 41  And when He was come near, He beheld the city, and wept over it,

 42  Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!  but now they are hid from thine eyes.

 43  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

 44  AND SHALL LAY THEE EVEN WITH THE GROUND, and thy children within thee;  AND THEY SHALL NOT LEAVE IN THEE ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER;  because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Whew!  Anybody can say whatever they want to say, I don't see this as being yet fulfilled.  There are lots and lots of great stones still making up the Wailing Wall.

Exactly. And there is more than just the Wailing Wall. There are plenty of statues and other things still standing. 

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

Having said this, I would submit that after the Antichrist confirms that "covenant with many (the Jews) for one week" (Dan. 9:27), and in the midst of that week shows himself for what he really is, the Jews are gonna really wail at that Wailing Wall, desiring for their real Messiah to come.  And, the Antichrist ain't gonna like it one stinkin' bit.  So, what do you think he'll do???

It is the rider on the white horse, the 7th king who confirms a covenant. He will be a former King of the North. He will be the Secretary General of the United Nations as he is given the stephanos crown, the leaf crown, which is the symbol of the UN. Yes, he is an antichrist and will claim to be God. But he is not THE Antichrist. 

Again, we see things very differently concerning the seals.  For me, there are too many things that come together much better when understood as I have come to understand things.

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, The Light said:

On 9/23/2021 at 10:39 PM, not an echo said:

I'm not quite done responding to the whole, or rest of your post, but I've got to take a break for now.  Anxious to hear your reply.  Well, I about forgot what this thread of mine is all about.  As I see it, "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16) that Paul spoke of, that he also refers to as "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), which is also the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) that Jesus spoke of, can sound at any time, even before I push Submit Reply.  It is not the 7th Trumpet, which is one in a series of other judgment trumpets, all of which will be sounded by angels.  The 7th Trumpet will herald a period of time that will include the last half of Daniel's 70th Week, Christ's Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign, and continue through the Last Judgment.  The Trump of God does not herald a period of time at all, but will be sounded just preceding the rapture and the resurrection.  It will be the Last Trump calling an assembly, and what an assembly that will be! 

The 7th trumpet signals the end of the wrath of God.

The Trump of God or voice of God will signal the secret coming for the mostly Gentile Church. Though people think that the spring feasts have been fulfilled, that is not the case. Pentecost is a harvest feast, the early summer harvest, and no harvest has occurred.

After the early summer of the Church has occurred, the secret pretribulation rapture what will the Jews say? Jer 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The last trump will be blown on the Feast of Trumpets. It will be the rapture of the twelve tribes across the earth. They will know exactly when the Lord will come and all eyes will see His coming. It is the time of the fall fruit harvest. The feasts of the Lord is a picture of what will happen in the future, which is why the Jews are instructed to follow them.

Okay Cub Tractor, let's see what you got.

The 7th Trumpet will herald the period in which "the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets" (Rev. 10:7).  What I keep hearing you say is that the wrath of God is over just after the 7th Trumpet sounds.  I don't see that.  What I see is this:  Just after the 7th Trumpet is sounded, the voices in Heaven and the 24 elders exclaim concerning where things are at.  And, where things are at is the consummation of everything that has been prophesied concerning the end of this world.  Said another way---The Main Event.  And, this is broken down for us in great detail in chapters 12-20.  A give away to seeing this is what the 24 elders say in 11:18 concerning "the time of the dead, that they should be judged."  This happens at the end of the 7th Trumpet period, in Revelation 20:11-15.  Whatever you are believing about the feasts, these need to be understood in the framework of The Revelation and the rest of Scripture.

Concerning your last sentence, what I got is a tractor style riding mower and a bad case of coveting a zero turn, like yours.

Also, I have got A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  Now, if you will look there at my opening post, you will see the two straight flushes that I sat down at this forum table with (A-Z and 1-10).  So far, these have made for a pat hand.  I have not had to discard or draw or fold.

Okay Zero Turn, now let's see what you got.  Oops, I didn't mean to be an echo!

P.S.  In all seriousness, Zero Turn (I had to have a little fun), what we are discussing is serious.  I hope you don't take me for being argumentative.  Really, I just feel that I have a contribution to make concerning the correct understanding of the last days, especially the timing of the rapture relative to other events.  And, I'm sure that you feel the same about things you have come to believe.  It is all so very interesting.  But, I want to, in the end, always make sure to keep the main thing the main thing and that is that we are ready, come what may.

Also---in all seriousness---I would like to have a zero turn mower.

[George]

Forgive me if this was mentioned, but just a quick Biblical understandings of when the Trumpets were blasted, you have Yom Turah, the Feast of Trumpets.  But then every Jubilee, you sound the Yovel trumpet blast on Yom Kippur, where all things return to their rightful owners.

During the period between Yom Turah and Yom Kippur...those 10 days are known as the Days of Awe.

Yom Kippur is known as the day of atonement for those being saved...the day of judgment to those who are damned.

So Biblically, you could have a Trumpet blast gathering the Saints while the betrothal of the saints takes place in Heaven and a Trumpet blast when the Lord returns with the saints.  All things would return to the Lord on his physical return and this would fit this narrative.

Just throwing my 2 cents in...take it for what it is.

[not an echo]

59 minutes ago, George said:

Forgive me if this was mentioned, but just a quick Biblical understandings of when the Trumpets were blasted, you have Yom Turah, the Feast of Trumpets.  But then every Jubilee, you sound the Yovel trumpet blast on Yom Kippur, where all things return to their rightful owners.

During the period between Yom Turah and Yom Kippur...those 10 days are known as the Days of Awe.

Yom Kippur is known as the day of atonement for those being saved...the day of judgment to those who are damned.

So Biblically, you could have a Trumpet blast gathering the Saints while the betrothal of the saints takes place in Heaven and a Trumpet blast when the Lord returns with the saints.  All things would return to the Lord on his physical return and this would fit this narrative.

Just throwing my 2 cents in...take it for what it is.

Hello George,

I had just finished my preceding post and was fixing to get geared up to go drive my afternoon school bus route when I noticed your post!   By your statement "this would fit this narrative" are you saying that you believe what you shared would fit what I just replied to The Light?  Just wanting to make sure of what you are saying.

Also, what you shared has not been mentioned in this thread.  Thanks for your input!

EDIT:  Hey George, just about the time I pushed Submit Reply, I believe I understood what you were saying!  The narrative you are speaking of is what you had just spoke of!   I had just been so absorbed in my reply to The Light---aka Zero Turn---that I thought your comments might have related to what I had said to him.  Of course, I am interested in your thoughts concerning my understanding(s).  Got to go drive them kids home...

Edited April 14, 2022 by not an echo