80% of Christians Do Not Hold to a PreTrib Rapture

[PeterR]

3 minutes ago, Diaste said:

For an imminent rapture? Idk, how about a verse that says it can happen any moment? Scripture tell us the gathering cannot happen till after certain events. Then it could be any moment, but only after those events which have not yet happened.

So, not today or tomorrow.

 

Can you name them, please?

[Diaste]

8 minutes ago, PeterR said:

Can you name them, please?

I'll let my betters do it.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matt 24

 

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed."

At the bare minimum 8 events happen first.

[Diaste]

14 minutes ago, Chicken coop2 said:

Once again, let's not confuse the Second Coming of Jesus with the Rapture.  These are two totally different events. 

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed."

The coming and gathering are linked in time and space according to Paul.

 

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, Chicken coop2 said:

Yes.  This is the second coming.  Everyone seems the return of Christ.  He returns.  He does not return for the Rapture.  We go to Him. 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect This is at the time of His coming.

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord." We don't go to Him, we are taken to Him

And it only happens after:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." Note the sections in bold.

[WilliamL]

48 minutes ago, Chicken coop2 said:

Once again, let's not confuse the Second Coming of Jesus with the Rapture.  These are two totally different events. 

Not at all. The Second Coming of Jesus into this world begins with the Rapture, and continues until the end of the time of God's Wrath. A study of the Greek term Parousia will dispel much of the confusion, because that word is often translated "coming." And such a study can be found here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

After the Rapture, but before the redemption and deliverance of earthly Jerusalem, Jesus will personally and single-handedly destroy an Edomite army. This event is shown here:

19. When Does the Lord Smite Edom?

Details Latter-Day events upon earth, including the Lord’s punishment of Edom, that are little understood by the Church.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1135-when-does-the-lord-smite-edom/

 

[The Light]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Probably as likely the camp is divided between the several views.

It's funny how no matter the take the conviction is deep. 

Yeah. Most of us have a conviction as we think that we are right about what the scriptures say. There is a difference between thinking you are right and being right.

Take for instance the story of Noah. The word clearly states that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

We also know that Noah is told to enter the ark in verse 1. And we know that Noah did all the things that he was instructed to do before the flood came.

Gen 7

 

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

² Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

³ Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

⁴ For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

⁵ And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

⁶ And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

You originally claimed vehemently that it took Noah 7 days to load the animals. We know that Noah and his family and all the animals were loaded in one day.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

¹⁵ And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Now, you can dance around the truth all you want. We know that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the church is in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

[The Light]

43 minutes ago, Chicken coop2 said:

Yes.  This is the second coming.  Everyone seems the return of Christ.  He returns.  He does not return for the Rapture.  We go to Him. 

This is not correct Coop2,

What you see in Matt 24 occurs immediately after the tribulation, but before the wrath of God begins.

It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured at this coming of Christ. Yes, all eyes will see the coming of the Lord at this time, but He is not coming to set up His kingdom on earth. He is coming remove the 12 tribes across the earth that have had their eyes opened. 

We can see the event that Jesus spoke of in Revelation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matt 24

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So we can see that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is not when He comes to set up His kingdom on earth, it is when there is a gathering from heaven and earth, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. The tribulation is NOT THE WRATH OF GOD.

You can find the Church already in heaven in Rev 4 and 5, before the seals are opened. When the seals are opened, the 70th week of Daniel, the tribulation, begins. It is the time of Jacobs trouble and has nothing to do with the Church.

There are two raptures even as the fig tree has two harvests.

[Montana Marv]

Matt 24 is all about Israel. The mystery of the church had not been revealed yet. So one cannot get the rapture from Matt 24.

Only God the Father knows the time of the bridegroom coming for the bride. Not in Scriptures. Not in Matt 24. Or any other Scripture. 

Yet the Second Coming is throughout the Scriptures. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[WilliamL]

18 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Matt 24 is all about Israel.

Matthew 24 is about the Parousia:

Matthew 24:3 …the disciples came to [Jesus] privately, saying…“what will be the sign of Your parousia, and of the end of the age?” ... 27 “For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines unto the west, so also will be the parousia of the Son of Man. … 30 …the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The Parousia comes at the resurrection of the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:21 …by Man [Jesus] also comes the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruit, afterward those who are Christʼs at His parousia.

The Parousia comes when Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven to rapture/catch up His saints:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring together with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Everyone who tries to divorce Matthew 24 from 1 Thes. 4:14-17 does not understand the concept of, and the Bible's use of, the word parousia. Read about the other uses of that term here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

[Montana Marv]

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Matthew 24 is about the Parousia:

Matthew 24:3 …the disciples came to [Jesus] privately, saying…“what will be the sign of Your parousia, and of the end of the age?” ... 27 “For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines unto the west, so also will be the parousia of the Son of Man. … 30 …the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The Parousia comes at the resurrection of the dead:

1 Corinthians 15:21 …by Man [Jesus] also comes the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruit, afterward those who are Christʼs at His parousia.

The Parousia comes when Jesus appears in the clouds of heaven to rapture/catch up His saints:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring together with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we the ones living, the ones remaining until the parousia of the Lord may by no means precede those who are asleep [dead]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command with the voice of an archangel, and with a trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thereafter we the ones living, the ones remaining shall be seized/caught up/raptured together with them in clouds, unto a meeting of the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Everyone who tries to divorce Matthew 24 from 1 Thes. 4:14-17 does not understand the concept of, and the Bible's use of, the word parousia. Read about the other uses of that term here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

What about the millennial saints. Are there two parousias. Or three. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. 

The Rapture is brought on by the Father. The Bride is ready.  No one knows the time. So I can't believe your view. You keep telling me something that is not in scripture. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv