80% of Christians Do Not Hold to a PreTrib Rapture

[PeterR]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I'll let my betters do it.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matt 24

 

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed."

At the bare minimum 8 events happen first.

Certainly the sign of our Lord's URGENT coming will be / is the feeling of non-believers of peace and their devastating "lack of fear". This should not be of concern to the few, harassed and oppressed, who are eager and prepared for rapture because we know it will happen suddenly. I do not say that Day of the Lord has already come or that we should stand and stare at the sky, but that it will not surprise us because we are aware that it can come at any moment.
Thinking about the signs has little to do with eager vigilance and keeping candles lit until the morning comes. Therefore, let us encourage and build up one another knowing that we do not belong to ourselves.

 

Act 1:7  

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

1Th 5:1-11 

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

[PeterR]

6 hours ago, Chicken coop2 said:

When I was a kid and read the bible by myself with nobody to influence me and had never heard the word rapture, it seemed quite clear that there were two different events being described.  One being the second coming of Jesus.  The other one being the event about all will be changed but not all will sleep. And the taken up into the clouds etc. Seemed pretty clear that there were two different events. One being the Second Coming with all kinds of prophesies etc. about when it would happen and this other mysterious event that I didn't understand.  But, whatever it was, came first.  Then many years later when I was a freshman in college in a Christian fellowship group I first heard the word rapture.  Yes, now this mysterious event made sense. 

A brother in the Lord once told me an anecdote. When he visited a congregation, he found there a sister who was quite hostile to one of the brothers. Then he asked: Sister, why do you have such an unpleasant attitude towards your brother? What if the rapture comes in a moment and you don't have time to reconcile with it before you meet in heaven? Will you be able to meet his eyes there?
And without a moment's thought she replied: Of course. I'll tell him: Sorry, I don't recognize you, angel 

Edited May 23, 2021 by PeterR

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, PeterR said:

Certainly the sign of our Lord's URGENT coming will be / is the feeling of non-believers of peace and their devastating "lack of fear". This should not be of concern to the few, harassed and oppressed, who are eager and prepared for rapture because we know it will happen suddenly. I do not say that Day of the Lord has already come or that we should stand and stare at the sky, but that it will not surprise us because we are aware that it can come at any moment.
Thinking about the signs has little to do with eager vigilance and keeping candles lit until the morning comes. Therefore, let us encourage and build up one another knowing that we do not belong to ourselves.

 

Act 1:7  

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

1Th 5:1-11 

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. 

44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect."

"And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”"

I mean...like....this time is recorded three times in the Gospels and an entire book is devoted to it. Seems pretty important. A common theme throughout prophecy is the Lord's Day. Major and minor prophets speak of this day. Really the ultimate destiny of us all is the return of the King. If He doesn't come then no resurrection, no judgement, no rewards, no life eternal....just...nothing. The coming of the Lord is everything.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

Yeah. Most of us have a conviction as we think that we are right about what the scriptures say. There is a difference between thinking you are right and being right.

Take for instance the story of Noah. The word clearly states that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

We also know that Noah is told to enter the ark in verse 1. And we know that Noah did all the things that he was instructed to do before the flood came.

Gen 7

 

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

² Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

³ Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

⁴ For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

⁵ And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

⁶ And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

You originally claimed vehemently that it took Noah 7 days to load the animals. We know that Noah and his family and all the animals were loaded in one day.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

¹⁵ And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Now, you can dance around the truth all you want. We know that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the church is in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

As you know I don't buy the analogy and you know the reasons why. 

There is too much other evidence for timing contradicting your proposition. 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, The Light said:

This is not correct Coop2,

What you see in Matt 24 occurs immediately after the tribulation, but before the wrath of God begins.

It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured at this coming of Christ. Yes, all eyes will see the coming of the Lord at this time, but He is not coming to set up His kingdom on earth. He is coming remove the 12 tribes across the earth that have had their eyes opened. 

We can see the event that Jesus spoke of in Revelation.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matt 24

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So we can see that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is not when He comes to set up His kingdom on earth, it is when there is a gathering from heaven and earth, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. The tribulation is NOT THE WRATH OF GOD.

You can find the Church already in heaven in Rev 4 and 5, before the seals are opened. When the seals are opened, the 70th week of Daniel, the tribulation, begins. It is the time of Jacobs trouble and has nothing to do with the Church.

There are two raptures even as the fig tree has two harvests.

You sit right on top of it. It's like you see it but don't see it at the same time. This is fascinating and strange to me. 

I guess I could go along with it if I thought Jacob was a separate entity from the church. When Gentiles are saved they are grafted into the olive tree of true and faithful Israel, the seed of Abraham, who is Jacob/Israel. Maybe that's where the roadblock is, segregation where none should exist.

[DeighAnn]

On 5/23/2021 at 5:18 AM, PeterR said:

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

Strong's G1628 - ekpheugō
from G1537 and G5343; to flee out:—escape, flee.

Outline of Biblical Usage - to flee out of, flee away; to seek safety in flight; to escape

allG3956 these thingsG5023 that shallG3195 come to pass,G1096

Heb 2:3  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I didn't go back and check, but I do believe that it had something to do with
'the man made pre trib rap theory of escape' and THAT is what is never spoken of in the Bible.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Remain a watchman and remain aware.
 

Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And the Only 'escape' from the deception coming, is by being IN the Lord Jesus Christ. 

 

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

As you know I don't buy the analogy and you know the reasons why. 

There is too much other evidence for timing contradicting your proposition. 

You are mistaken. There is ZERO evidence that what I'm saying is incorrect. Just because you can prove that there is a rapture after the tribulation proves nothing as far as the Church goes. That is the 12 tribes across the earth being raptured and there is plenty of evidence that supports this truth.

If you can produce any evidence, which I know you can't, please do so.

There will be two raptures, one pretrib for the Church and one prewrath for the 12 tribes across the earth.

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

You sit right on top of it. It's like you see it but don't see it at the same time. This is fascinating and strange to me. 

What confuses you is that I agree that Matt 24 is not the second coming of Christ to set up His kingdom. 

We know there is a rapture. The problem for you is, there is ZERO evidence that it is the Church being raptured and plenty of evidence that it is the twelve tribes across the earth (the seed of the woman) being raptured. If you can produce even one shred of evidence that it is the Church being raptured from the earth when Christ returns in Matt 24, I sure would like to see it. But I already know that you don't have any. 

Quote

I guess I could go along with it if I thought Jacob was a separate entity from the church. When Gentiles are saved they are grafted into the olive tree of true and faithful Israel, the seed of Abraham, who is Jacob/Israel. Maybe that's where the roadblock is, segregation where none should exist.

It's like you understand that the Steelers and Cowboys have won the Super bowl but don't understand that it didn't happen at the same time. So it will be with the harvest of the Jews and Gentiles. God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Meaning God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. When the Jews served other Gods, the Jews would no longer be the first harvest but the Gentiles would be the first harvest.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

I can post verse after verse that the Gentiles become the first harvest and the Jews come after. It's the plan, simple as that. Part of the Jews will not be able to see until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. And yet those in the Nation of Israel will not be able to see until AFTER the wrath of God begins.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Through the Jews stumbling, salvation comes to the Gentiles. 

Rom 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

And we see above that the Jews become jealous when they see the Gentiles are saved. When do they see the salvation of the Gentiles. When the rapture of the Church occurs. 

Jer 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Gentiles will be the first harvest of the fig tree. The Jews will become jealous when they see that the Gentiles received salvation. They will know that the harvest is over and realize they are not saved. They will be the second harvest.

This is all in the book of Revelation, documented proof that the 12 tribes will be harvested just prior to the wrath of God. But you can't find one single verse that proves that the Church is raptured at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24.

Edited May 24, 2021 by The Light

[The Light]

9 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I didn't go back and check, but I do believe that it had something to do with
'the man made pre trib rap theory of escape' and THAT is what is never spoken of in the Bible.
 

 

You've got me confused here. You do an excellent job proving that the pretribulation rapture is man made by the Son of Man by posting the verse showing that Jesus says that we can escape ALL THE THINGS that will come to pass. Then you say THAT it is never spoken of in the Bible after you just posted the scripture showing that it is. 

Typing error?

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, The Light said:

What confuses you is that I agree that Matt 24 is not the second coming of Christ to set up His kingdom. 

We know there is a rapture. The problem for you is, there is ZERO evidence that it is the Church being raptured and plenty of evidence that it is the twelve tribes across the earth (the seed of the woman) being raptured. If you can produce even one shred of evidence that it is the Church being raptured from the earth when Christ returns in Matt 24, I sure would like to see it. But I already know that you don't have any. 

It's like you understand that the Steelers and Cowboys have won the Super bowl but don't understand that it didn't happen at the same time. So it will be with the harvest of the Jews and Gentiles. God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Meaning God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first fruits of the first harvest. The fig tree has two harvests. When the Jews served other Gods, the Jews would no longer be the first harvest but the Gentiles would be the first harvest.

Hos 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

I can post verse after verse that the Gentiles become the first harvest and the Jews come after. It's the plan, simple as that. Part of the Jews will not be able to see until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. And yet those in the Nation of Israel will not be able to see until AFTER the wrath of God begins.

Rom 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Through the Jews stumbling, salvation comes to the Gentiles. 

Rom 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

And we see above that the Jews become jealous when they see the Gentiles are saved. When do they see the salvation of the Gentiles. When the rapture of the Church occurs. 

Jer 8

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Gentiles will be the first harvest of the fig tree. The Jews will become jealous when they see that the Gentiles received salvation. They will know that the harvest is over and realize they are not saved. They will be the second harvest.

This is all in the book of Revelation, documented proof that the 12 tribes will be harvested just prior to the wrath of God. But you can't find one single verse that proves that the Church is raptured at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24.

All that ignores profound passages of the NT. I agree there is a nation of Israel, like the country, with borders, people and a capitol city. 

Unless any of those are in Christ they are not of faithful Israel, the seed of Abraham, nor are they in Christ. There are only those in Christ and those who are not. Those in Christ are the seed of Abraham, or Jacob, or faithful and true Israel. There is no Gentile church as all Gentiles when born again are grafted into the natural olive tree of true Israel.

You'll see.