Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, Josheb said:

Moving goalposts. 

 

I was told those things did not happen in the first century. I was asked to provide evidence they did happen in the first century. I provided that evidence. Now, instead of the evidence being acknowledged and the earlier dissent being corrected the response it, "But these things have always happened." 

I started a discussion called Josephus, Tactius and Eschatology I find that the account of these historians do not match up with the biblical account of the GT and the return of Jesus. I apologize if I didn't acknowledge the evidence you presented. 

On 6/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, Josheb said:

Well if they have always happened then they also happened in the first century so all of you stop saying they did not happen. You cannot have both ways; it's not only irrational, it is dishonest. 

What I'm pointing out is the problematic nature of prophesying about coming conditions that look the same as past events in one section of Matt 24. 

On 6/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, Josheb said:

And look at the box into which modern futurists paint themselves because the moment anything remotely like, "Jesus was speaking about new and different, unique or exception versions of wars and earthquakes and famines and....." is said than I am going to ask, "Really? Where is that stated in scripture?"

I'm convinced this has been addressed. 

On 6/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, Josheb said:

 

and then I'm going to be subjected to red herrings and ad hominems because there isn't anywhere where scripture states such things. Because there is no such statements I'm going to remind everyone that things nowhere stated are being added to the scriptures while, alternatively, I am looking solely at what is stated as written. Then I'm gonna get yelled at more and accused and labeled and just plain attacked. That is what has already happened all I've done is point everyone back to what is stated and what has been added. Stop adding to scripture.

Yeah, it's a tough crowd.

But I'm not adding. I'm deducing. Big difference. Please stop accusing me of adding to scripture. Inference is logically valid and it doesn't take adding what's not there to realize the sum of the parts.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, Josheb said:

 

Should have stopped at "I agree," and not moved the goal posts. 

I'm not raising the standard of proof. I'm saying the proof offered is inadequate to the initial request. In this particular topic I don't find your proofs meet the requirements so there's no need to require ever greater and more abundant facts and proofs.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:23 PM, Josheb said:

And for the record: no, those things have not always happened in Israel. There was Imperial peace in the occupied Israel during the lives of Jesus and the apostles. The Romans fought wars in the oughts and teens but none had much bearing on Israel. Jesus did not say "the world will see.....". He said, "YOU will see..." And they did. How many times have I asked everyone to 1) read what is stated and 2) pay attention to the specified details? Appeals to what has always happened everywhere else in the world has nothing to do with what Jesus actually stated. Read what is stated and read it as written........ because the text doesn't say anything about what may or may not always have happened about anything outside of the disciples experience. Yes, I mentioned the Roman battles in Britain but most of what I listed happened in or near Israel and had very real, significant and direct impact on the economics of Jerusalem. The disciples heard about it and saw it. 

Okay. We could do this forever and get nowhere. Let me attempt to focus this a bit.

It is my understanding the GT is likened to 70 AD. Is that wrong of me? I think that is what you and Justin are saying, yes?

If that's the case then this, 

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

should have been witnessed by the two most reliable sources we have for the Jewish Wars and the fall of Jerusalem. What they did record is nothing like this. What is recorded is quite stunning and I have posted it here

If I'm off on what I understand please correct me.

If I am correct then what happened in 70 AD is the prophesied Temple destruction only and has nothing to do with anything after Matt 24:4. Not to mention Jesus says nothing about the Temple destruction and the Diaspora from Matt 24:4 to Matt 25:46. 

 

[Diaste]

On 6/16/2021 at 8:01 PM, Josheb said:

I have already addressed all of this in this thread. Were my posts read? If so then why is what I've already written being ignored. If not then why would I be expected to reply further when I have already addressed all of this? That's a good long post but it hasn't furthered the conversation a single word. 

I might have read them. I don't have a ton of time. And please be understanding, sometimes people have to hear the same thing 6-7 times before it sinks in. I'm sure you have noticed this.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:01 PM, Josheb said:

And, no, it is not an argument from silence. If all that existed was silence then that would be an argument from silence but it isn't solely the silence that's the problem for the modern temple-futurist; it is presence of other scripture stating what would happen to the existing temple and how and where the new and true temple would be built. Scripture is not silent about the temple God built but it is silent about a third temple of stone. Modern futurists ignore what is stated and they do so in favor of an inferential alternative that is nowhere stated in scripture. 

The argumentum ex silentio is equating the Temple destruction prophecy with the body of the Olivet Discourse when no evidence suggests they are connected and in fact from the text there is an insurmountable time and space factor.

So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thess 2:4

This didn't happen in 70 AD. If it did it isn't recorded. The Temple was burned and destroyed before anyone could stop said destruction so there was no time for Vespasian, or anyone else, to fulfill 2 Thess2:4 as the Temple was razed immediately upon the final assault of the Roman troops. This is yet to come. So by this then another Temple must stand. Yes, it's inference and it's structurally valid.

On 6/16/2021 at 8:01 PM, Josheb said:

 

Yes, Jesus did come back.
Yes, all of it did happen.
Yes, there is a record of it.
 

No, Jesus did not come back the way modern futurists imagine he will come back.
No, it did not happen the way modern futurists imagine it will happen. 
No, it is not recorded the way modern futurists imagine it should be recorded. 

"

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

It takes no imagination for the above to be a valid prophecy. None of the above was recorded by Josephus or Tactius in 70 AD.

 

On 6/16/2021 at 8:01 PM, Josheb said:

The difference lies in the plain reading of scripture. Every single futurist here arguing with me has 1) neglected or ignored what is plainly stated, and 2) posted highly interpretive alternatives instead. They have not always done this but they have all done it one place or another. Including you, Diaste. The difference is the the dissent is based SOLELY on an eschatology that didn't exist 200 years ago. It's not just new; it's radically different than anything previously upheld in Christian history. It's popular but popularity does not make it truth. 

Guilty as charged but disagreeing with premises. I don't neglect and deduction based inference is logically valid.  Premillennialism has existed since at least the 2nd century and probably the 1st. But I don't base it on religious constructs and I'm not a doctrinaire. I'm difficult to convince for sure but I'm not immovable.

"It's popular but popularity does not make it truth. "

Does this apply to the list of exegetical constants of which you are fond?

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

 Thx. I'll check it out. Gotta head of to work.

Take note of the signs in J's Wars, 6:5:3.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Justin Adams

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

When these signs appear then you know I'll be coming to judge the Pharisees and destroy the temple and the age will end.

Where does it say 1. the age will end  2. the Pharisees to be judged and 3. the signs that will be given at a different time and in a different place answering a different question isn't as it is written but as you believe for that coming destruction of the temple and that the temple destruction is the end of the age?    


The QUESTION that should be asked is 

DOES the destruction of the temple have to do with ANYTHING other than the destruction of the temple.  Does it's destruction signal or signify an age change? 
Is it THE QUESTIONS being asked that somehow  hook its destruction into 'the final generation' with Great tribulation upon the world and the return of Christ? 

Because it certainly doesn't seem to come from the answers.  

 

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is what is stated. 

Third, the words "this generation" are used about a dozen times in Matthews gospel, and not once does any mention refer to the 21st century. They refer to those to whom he was speaking at the time. Look it up. Modern futurists have made this one mention different than all the others. 

YES, it was spoken to them.  WHAT ARE THEY TOLD TO DO WITH IT?  Go teach and baptize unto the whole world. AND sure enough here WE ARE with the Holy Spirit speaking unto an entirely new generation, a future generation known to be coming since before there was an earth, so WHEN SPEAKING of a future generation, 'this generation' would be used for that future generation as it is also the present one.  What a miracle!!!!


We had the 'generation' of vipers.  TO WHOM THE TEMPLE DESTRUCTION WAS ADDRESSED upon whom it was fulfilled.  LONG WAY FROM THE WHOLE WORLD.  

We have 3 different questions being asked BUT  

WHAT did they (the people of the first century) KNOW about the Temple destruction as to how it fit into the 'TIMES'?  NOTHING.  They knew about the first one.  So the question asked should not be used to LOCK the events together

For SOME reason, the questions are not divided into separate groups nor separate times though it clearly becomes apparent from the answers they should be.  


Christ tells us of the former and latter rain that will be poured out.  Knowledge will grow.  When that comes about should anyone demand to keep it as it always was?  That goes against other truths does it not?     


9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny himself.


14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.


15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Profane history ever being used to SET Gods History seems like nothing more than 'A' changing of the times.   What do we call it when 'mans laws' take precedent over Gods Words and the leadings of the Holy Spirit? 






The calling to SALVATION of all the gentiles would have only lasted 40 years?  THAT'S IT?  

Doesn't really seem like a very long time to get everyone on board does it?  Do you really think the New Covenant only opened up salvation for 40 years?



1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

JUST LIKE THE PRE TRIB RAPT THEORY  NO TIME IS GIVEN.  NO OTHER PROPHECY IS LINKED UP OR IN WITH IT.  

IF THERE WAS NO CHAPTER AND VERSE DIVISIONS IT WOULD HAVE A NATURAL END TO THAT SUBJECT THERE.  


THEN, 20 MIN FROM THE TEMPLE

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world



It is quite easy to discern THESE NEXT WORDS DO NOT TAKE PLACE AT TEMPLE, AND SINCE THEY ARE 20 MINS AWAY FROM WHERE THE WORDS DO TAKE PLACE IT IS NOT AT THE SAME TIME EITHER.  SO MAYBE THE DESTRUCTION IS ONE HAPPENING TAKING PLACE AT ONE TIME AND THE NEXT TWO  ARE AT A DIFFERENT TIME.  


So then it would be ALL of what they had seen to be destroyed , right?  


THE FINAL GENERATION of souls to be born in the flesh/earthy bodies. (No one to be born from above because above has come down and above is now present)  


3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

Tell us, when shall these things be? and

1)  what shall be the sign of thy coming, and 
2) of the end of the world?

Is this EXPLANATION POSSIBLE?   Is this explanation PROBABLE?  Would God open salvation for only 40 years before the day of vengeance and the beginning of the Lords Day  

OR


Just WAITING until the last generation, WHAT SHOULD BE your most perpared generation and let the 'final' flesh battle end it all.  Why not just have a 1000 year period in which those who would it seem more likely that SALVATION woruld remain being offered for the next 2000 years and then have the Lord return for JUDGMENT upon all.

IS IT IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE OF SOMETHING i CAN NOT SEE RIGHT NOW IS CAUSING CONFLICT?  





 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

I completely disagree. The disciples asked first "When will these things happen...."so we must ask and then answer what are the "these things"? If and when we work backwards from the question we find the first thing mentioned is the temple's destruction and the second thing mention is judgment or sentencing of the Pharisees and their house. If and when we read the whole passage - which covers five chapters - we find the entire narrative began with Jesus clearing out the temple. The day begins with a cleaned out temple and just before that day ends the temple is declared desolate and the disciples are told it's going to be destroyed. 

There is no argument from silence. 

There is in fact a huge ginormous pile of evidence supporting what I posted and I touched on only a smidgeon of it. 

 

You are correct (I believe it was you ho noted this) when saying we don't know how much time transpired between their leaving the temple to the conversation on the Olive mount but we do know the Mount of Olive sits just about 200 feet above the roof of the temple sitting across the saddle connecting it to the temple mount. We know in all five chapters of the Matthew narrative, especially chapters 23 and 24 Jesus was referencing a pile of Old Testament. I didn't touch on any of that. We don't know some things, but we do know a lot - or at least I do. I don't know it all but I do know some things and I am happy to share what I know with anyone but the facts so far in evidence are that no one is interested, not even those who asked for the information in the first place. 

The "these things" connects us to the temple and judgment. It is not an argument from silence.  The scriptures are not silence on the "these things". 

Two full chapters, Matt 24-25, no mention of the coming 70 AD Temple destruction except Matt 24:2. Since Jesus didn't give any further comment on the Temple destruction,(He did say something about the intact Holy Place) He didn't consider "When will these things be." to be in the context of the Temple. 

The text is deafeningly silent on the context and meaning of the "When will these things be" query. Except, of course, for the answer spanning two chapters which concerns the end of the age, judgement and the nature of the Kings absence, the duration of His absence, and the characteristics of His return and the behavior and condition of His servants. Nothing about the Temple. 

But I will reread the previous chapters to get in front of your objections. 

So far none of what you posted in this reply is convincing enough as there is at least 30 minutes of total silence in the text. No connection between Matt 24:1-2 and Matt 24:3 can be made from Matt 24:1-3. Any evidence of a connection or lack of one must come from the answer following the query. In this case I don't see the past couple of days brings insight to Matt 24:1-3. But I'm open to hear.

[Justin Adams]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

I will not repeat already-posted content again. Read the thread.

One day Josh, I hope you will clarify other passages that have been co-opted to fit into the pre-mil narrative. Zechariah for one. There are others bro. 

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

I agree. However, why there are disparities is important.

First and foremost I would say the problem is with us, living here and now in modern times because we look at "history," and "news" and "report" in substantively different ways than people did back then. This is just as true of the Biblical writers as it is of secular writers in ancient times. As they saw history the matter of history telling was often cultural and consciously intended to communicate things beyond mere fact.

A second concern is one I would start with the gospel writers be the gospels writers were not writing mere facts. This is evident in the use of the word "gospel," which most of us understand as "good news" but the actual words for "good" and "news" are "euangelion". A euangelion was a specific kind of announcement, one usually reserved in the Roman Emprie for when a Caesar or a general did something exceedingly honorable, noble, or won a great battle. Euangelions were use to announce the deification of these great men which promoted them from the realm of Hades to the Elysium Fields. This is the term chosen by the gospel writers writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They (God and His writers) were provoking Rome and the secular powers. Jesus was not just a man who became a god. Jesus was God AND man AND he did something not even Caesar could do: defeat death. When the Caesars died they were dead. Jesus came back in the flesh for all to see. 

So understand the gospel writers are biased sources  and they were not writing mere fact. Nothing in the Bible is mere fact. This brings us to the third concern: the biases of the respective writers and their intent. If you're hired by someone to write a history and that guy is a wealthy and powerful oligarch and all of you are living in a totalitarian regime masquerading as some form of democracy then you write in two ways: what you're getting paid for and what cat or truth you can get away with. 

There are other salient matter but the last of which I'll make note involves all three of the above and this is the distinction that we might nowadays draw between what is written for academia and that which is written for the best-seller list. If I want to read some history about a recent period in American history I don't read the anecdotal reports of some politician. They are biased sources. They may be somewhat reliable but because of the inherent bias they were not wholly reliable. If I read one of those authors I, personally, might give an account by an author with the opposite bias hoping some greater truth might be garnered from the synthesis. However, I'm much, much more likely to go tot the research and look up that studies and reports, and books, the doctoral dissertations done by those whose works are examined by others before being published, those things not always published for profit. They too ae also biased sources but much less so than those from more explicitly political sources. 

Sadly, neither the gospel writers nor Josephus or Tacitus fit the bill of unbiased sources. 

The Bible is not a history book. It contains history but it is not a book on history. It's not a biology book, a physics book, or an engineering books. It contains content pertaining to all these things and more but it is not that kind of book. This is probably (I have no research to prove this next claim ) the single biggest problem with Christians reading the Bible: we tend to wrongly think the Bible is written first and foremost about us! 

It is NOT. 

The Bible is about Jesus. 

So despite what I just said about my last point I suppose it's worth noting the histories of Josephus and Tacitus are not about Jesus. So when we looked to their other-than-fact-political-agenda-save-their-own-neck histories we understand not to falle prey to false equivalence (the apples and oranges fallacy). They'd not writing about things of the Bible and they're not writing history as history is written nowadays but many don't treat any of this content that way even if the know to do so (because, let's face it, Dispensational seminaries might teach these fact  but the graduates don't teach it to the sheep in their flocks very often. None of what I just posted is secret. I will admit I live a certain portion of my life in academia but most of the above is easily accessed online or at the local library and doesn't take long to find. As I write this post I find more and more comes to mind because from Jo's pov the Jewish jihadists (which is what they were in modern vernacular) were a gross betrayal. To the Romans (remember Tacitus is writing long after the fact) the Jews are lesser people and the relationship between Rome and Christians on a good day is like the IRA and the Black and Tans (I concede the crudity of the comparison), and on a bad day it makes the KKK look like choir boys as Christians are covered in pitch, impaled on stakes, and lit afire while still alive to serve as nightlights. 

There are no objective sources here. Any expectation for such a source is evidence we're part of the problem. 

 

Having said all this, I don't think the matter of understanding what is stated in Matthew 24 and working exegetically from what is stated is very difficult or complicated........ so I don't believe either is what stopped my brothers and sisters from working with me with scripture. 

 

Discernment should be used with Josephus, less so imo with Tacitus, but the fact is - no matter how inconvenient that fact ay be - they're just about all we have so folks can argue over it all they like but those men wrote what they wrote and it does not always fit well into our preconceived eschatological biases - no matter which of our own biases we bring to bear on their histories. 

I can and would have appealed to Josephus and Tacitus in this op had anyone given the scripture and other verifiable facts of history the time of day they deserved. I was asked and I provided. I asked and those requests still sit silently unattended in the thread. I think this is a shameful comparison but I don't mean any offense by that or intend to get off-topic. Parity is a fairly basic precept in civil discourse, yes? If I cannot get my faith siblings to look at only a handful of scriptures as written then what hope have I of walking exegetically with them through greater selections? If I cannot get them to look at a few undeniable facts of history collaboratively and with delight building consensus then what is the likelihood I'm going to get any collaboration with citing Josephus and Tacitus (neither of whom I referenced). 

You see everyone is all already loaded against Jo and Tac one way or another. I know that before I ever enter any eschatology or prophecy board. Our biases don't invalidate their history any more than their biases do so. Anyone who trusts Barak Obama's report of the War on Terror over George Bush's (or vice versa) isn't just biased themselves; they are fools. So we must look first at ourselves and ask about our own skepticism, cynicism, and mistrust and how far beyond Jo and Tac that extends because, let's face it, some here don't trust me or others here or what we post. 

 

If you like I'll repost this in your op. Josephus wrote quite a lot and it is laborious to read it all (I have not done so, despite my ongoing efforts to finish). Having read a large portion of his works first hand I will say I am impressed at how much does bear consistency with scripture when read with a first century mindset on history. 

Even though you seem to say the opposite it feels as though you attribute human foibles to the text of gospels, maybe even the wider scope of the NT, and maybe to all scripture. I don't like it but it's fair to say. One thing you touched on is:

"we tend to wrongly think the Bible is written first and foremost about us! 

It is NOT. 

The Bible is about Jesus."

I agree. Even more than this is scripture is less about the words contained in the text and is focused on the ideas the words convey. This is the guidance of the Spirit.

"And He has qualified us as ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

It's not the words, it's the concepts. 

One day an expert in the law stood up to test Him. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26“What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you read it?”

27He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’c and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d”

28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus said. “Do this and you will live.”

And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

All the words written about the law boiled down to two concepts, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself." 

As long as the concepts remain intact the bias of the one who holds the pen is irrelevant. Under the guidance and prompting of the Spirit of God, in the will of God to provide necessary truths to His people, all kinds of people were employed from all walks of life and all ages from young to old. 

If we get too caught up in the words we will miss the underlying concepts which drive pen to paper.

Even though I get what you're saying I'm unaffected. The disparities are too great in the description and too large in number when comparing the imagery of the Historians and that of the prophecies in Matt, Mark and Luke.

More could be said but it's getting late for me. The suns about to rise and I have to get to the Jeep this morning early before its gets hot. 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Josheb said:

This is why I have emphasized what is stated. This is why I have asked "Where does scripture state that?" and made not of occasions where things are posted about what scripture "says" when a plain reading of the text readily shows it does not state any such thing. We start first with what is stated and only then look to what can reasonably or exegetically be made to say from what is stated. Well, a person has to know exegesis in order to do exegesis. And as you and I have touched upon in the hypocrisy op the modern futurists don't practice the rules of exegesis they claim to demand. 

My friend, you cannot push aside inference totally. You do yourself and others a disservice. Think about how we infer in our daily lives. It happens all the time. 

I agree with you in that what is stated should be the primary interpretive function. It's a direct statement and that is the best evidence. Indirect statements come next and from these we can deduce inferring meaning; a logically valid method of understanding.

Just because the method of inference is abused and preferred over direct statements by some doesn't necessarily invalidate the idea. Leave them be to their own failings and employ the method faithfully, diligently with all the purity and honesty in which I know you seek. 

Your idealism is admirable but it's not super popular, not everyone is as strong as you. 

 

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

Matthew 24:3
"As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

Is the answer to this question is not already known? I have already answered that question. Provided  handful of verses doing so.

1 Corinthians 10:7-11 NAS
"Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, 'The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.' Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.  Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.  Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.  Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come." 

1 Corinthians 10:11 BLB
"Now these things happened to them as types and were written for our admonition, to whom the ends of the ages are arrived." 

The end of the ages had come. They came upon the believers in the first century in the epistolary era. The first letter to the Church in Corinth was written c. 53-54 AD. 

 

 

.

Wouldn't common sense make a bell going off in your heart and ringing in your ears causing red flashing lights to rapidly blink before your eyes manifesting a deep seated overall agonizing sense of doom in the soul and spirit, that there is a possibility that something is  incorrect?? 

and in that place deep within 

lies the knowledge that 'the END of the ages'  could only possibly maybe perhaps have been STARTED back with this 'destruction' of the temple? 

and that NO matter what, 'the end of the ages' didn't take place because we are, TO THIS DAY,  being born,  living and dying exactly the same since Adam and Eve (and  before IMHO).  

I may be wrong but 'dispensations' or the naming of 'ages' is not somehow bad, but just as there came an end to life in the garden, to life before the flood,  to life as Jacob/Israel, to life as the Northern and Southern houses of Israel and Judah, to life in captivity then scattered for one, the other to go back to occupy Gods place and build the temple for the coming of the WORD made flesh (just in case there was an acceptance of the King and the kingdom and a 'last day' would have taken place THEN instead of a crucifixion and ALL prophecy that had been foretold of Christ in the law and the prophets and the writings would have been fulfilled, BUT that didn't happen so King, Kingdom on earth, last day ALL prophecy fulfilled was  put back to the FINAL generation in which the punishment of Lev 26 ended and by watching the EVENTS here on earth unfold before our very eyes, the rate of changes and prophecies being fulfilled literally coming closer and closer to each other just like LABOR pains and HOW YOU know what season it is by WHAT IS TAKING PLACE IN THE FIG TREE, Gods laws of nature, YOU are watching come to pass the 'events of the final season' and because YOU SEE these truths written of happening, and you see because you have put on the gospel armor, when SATANS fiery darts of DECEPTION come shooting your way, you duck and they fling right past you, and you realize THERE IS NOTHING he can say or do to even TEMPT you into believing his lies and you have only to look up or for the two witnesses God has sent for any direction you may need.  THERE is great temptation going on in the world every where you look.  The world 'powers' were going down that 'weakest' link going to cause the death of it all.  Chaos was coming upon all the earth, it looked as though it was all going to end, and horribly at that,  and soon,  and then !!!!!!  LOOK, 

SAVED BY 'THE SUPERNATURAL' arrives with all his little helpers to boot and he shows up just in the nick of time to fix the impossible and check out the the power and the wisdom and the beauty and the might

(AND IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER...YOU would believe it too  He is soooo good and convincing and if you had to be around him very long, he could even SELL YOU that basket of LIES) Especially because of the miracles, the supernatural happenings, and the whole world is so thankful and fully into following what ever he says or does BECAUSE they do not have the gospel armor.  THEY thought the 'real devil' had already come and gone and so didn't know what was happening.  Or they thought they would not be 'on the earth' for such goings on so they have no idea what is happening.  AND if they continued to BELIEVE those kinds of things EVEN WHEN they were given TRUTH, even when it went against basic common sense, you can best believe that 'the delusion' is what they will believe, and will become a part of the 'great falling away'  BY BELIEVING THE LIES THEY ARE SEEING AND HEARING 

RENDERING THEM UNFAITHFUL.  Remember that 1st commandment.  

So believing what is happening right before their very eyes,  naturally falling in step with the world,  worshipping the supernatural supersmart superbeautiful serpent AS IF HE WERE GOD
 

there comes an end to that.  

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
That was the Crucifixion


but not for himself and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
That was the destruction of the temple built for the proclaimed King.


Then the telling


This is describing how THE END of the AGES will look.
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined


THE WAR which was set forth at the very beginning of the BIBLE and THE END of that war,  ENDS THIS AGE. 


Till then 'dispensations' come and go.  
 

CHRIST has been REJECTED and Crucified and IS NOW AND WILL REMAIN AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN.  AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN.  DON'T KNOW HOW THAT IS GOTTEN AROUND BUT I AM SURE IT IS.  


Daniel 9:27 And he

Who are we talking about? 

 ...the prince that shall come. 


WE KNOW Christ has risen and is in heaven


SO THIS 'he'  MUST  BE SATAN who

shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (that seventieth week) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

I don't know how he confirms the covenant, but it could be by
1) getting kicked out of heaven or
2) healing the deadly wound

BUT HOWEVER in "the midst" of the week CAN NOT BE THE CRUCIFIXION, IT HAS already taken place 

SO HOW does the 'sacrifice and oblation' cease?  

Some see it as physical, as in a temple has to be built,  and Jews have to start animal sacrifice, and then etc......

But I believe,  because I read of the EVENTs taking place WHEN the sacrifice and oblation cease,  that it is our LOVE (sacrifice and oblation) WHICH WE HAD BEEN  giving to God,  through faith,  is taken away BY WHAT the EYES see and the ears hear and how the hearts FOLLOW especially if don't know, don't expect, don't watch.     
 

Hosea 6:4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

Hosea 6:5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

(Many have a problem with the Millennial Temple in Ezekiel because of the 'animal' sacrifice not realizing the now 'figurative' language of sacrifice in the spiritual realm, hence trying to keep people in the flesh even when we know flesh and blood can't inherit) 

Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Hosea 6:8 Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.

Hosea 6:9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.

Hosea 6:10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.

Hosea 6:11 Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of my people.

Hosea 7:1 When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered, and the wickedness of Samaria: for they commit falsehood; and the thief cometh in, and the troop of robbers spoileth without.

Hosea 7:2 And they consider not in their hearts that I remember all their wickedness: now their own doings have beset them about; they are before my face.

Hosea 7:3 They make the king glad with their wickedness, and the princes with their lies.

Hosea 7:4 They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker, who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough, until it be leavened.

Hosea 7:5 In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners......

Don't be deceived by any man, for the devil walks around looking to consume souls and is the best there will ever be at deception and once deceived, FAITHFUL is no longer what you are.  
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,



THE TWO WITNESSES KILLED, 3 1/2 DAYS IN STREET, JESUS RETURNING, THE TWO WITNESSES RISE, SATAN DESTROYED BY HIS BRIGHTNESS AND SOON BOUND FOR 1000 YEARS, and all prophecy concerning HIS coming fulfilled
even until the consummation,


GODS WRATH AT THE 7 BOWLS poured out (THE SAINTS AVENGED, EVERY EYE SHALL SEE, EVERY KNEE SHALL BEND,  THE HEAVENS HAVING CAST THEIR UNTIMELY FIGS, CHRIST AND THE ARMIES RETURNED, HEAVEN ROLLED AWAY AS A SCROLL
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

AND I BELIEVE THAT much of this will play out again, in a similar fashion,  at the end of the millennium also.  



I believe that IN BETWEEN the time Christ came as the Saviour and will come as LORD AND KING, is the time to spread the good news, the growing of the Body of Christ, the time salvation is being offered to whomsoever would and Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles and only ENDS when all souls have been born of flesh (determined by Gods inheritance)


I believe that once Christ returns and ROD OF IRON government takes over it will be a time of teaching Gods Pure Words and a lot of ear and eye opening wisdom and knowledge being poured out.  Lots of healing (in heart and mind) and Gods 'Justice' being seen as it should be.  

Gods Will Be Done  
D

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

Matthew 24:3
"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

Already answered this question, too. 

Matthew 23:29-36, 38
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,  and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'  So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.  Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.  You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?  Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,  so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.  Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation... Behold, your house is left to you desolate." 

Hey, Jesus, when will these things happen? 

 

 

To be clear: they'd already been judged. Technically 70 AD was when the sentence got meted out. 

 

 

 

Yes, they keep getting answered in the exact same way with the things I propose to be truth never commented upon.  SO in efforts to exact an answer I will ask it this way.  If you only have what you have said before and nothing new, please don't respond.  

OUTSIDE of the temple JESUS says 'this will happen' to the temple.  

HAVING LEFT the temple and the subject of conversation and having traveled to  the mount of OLIVES WHERE 

AN ENTIRELY NEW CONVERSATION BEGINS (HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TEMPLE  - THAT QUESTION ALREADY HAVING BEEN asked and ANSWERED.

Do you follow what I am saying?  Because NOTHING from this point forward has any mention of the temple or the generation of vipers.  

But at the Mount of Olives,

THEY want to know of THESE THINGS
1)  what will be the sign of Your coming,
2)  and of the end of the age



MY knowing and understand HOW you believe makes me QUESTION if you have found IF

THERE IS something 'written' somewhere IN THE WORDS OF GOD,  that CREATE A CONFLICT with dividing THESE THOUGHTS AND VERSES AND TIMES AS SUCH?

AKA
IS THERE SOME CHAPTER OR VERSE SOMEWHERE THAT WOULD PRECLUDE THIS FROM BEING POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF A CONFLICT BETWEEN WHAT IS WRITTEN?