Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[spiritman]

Greetings Abbershay,

the verse that says he will keep us from the hour of temptation that shall come upon the whole earth.... Notice that we are kept Out of time itself

This is what troubles me most about the pre-trib position. I can sum it up with these verses:

2 Tim 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I do not say this lightly. Please examine the following verses regarding TEMPTATION:

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Luke 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

Luke 22:46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The word "temptation" comes from the Greek:

3986 peirasmos {pi-ras-mos'}

from 3985; TDNT - 6:23,822; n m

AV - temptation 19, temptations 1, try 1; 21

1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving

1a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily

condition, since condition served as to test the love of the

Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)

1b) the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy

1b1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from

the desires or from the outward circumstances

1b2) an internal temptation to sin

1b2a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert

Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand

1b3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we

are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and

holiness

1b4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to

test or prove one's character, faith, holiness

1c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men

1c1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice

are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show

themselves

Perhaps the best verse that represents the rest of the uses of the word Temptation is:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Consider that "if a way to escape" is made (SEE REV 3:10) "ye may be able to bear it." At no time does the Lord tell us that we are going to be taken out of time or FROM this earth. The pre-trib doctrine stretches the truth to incredulity, and I can guarantee you, all should be concerned with the following verses:

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The pre-trib doctrine is pure heresy! I used to believe it and was led along by men's fables - UNTIL I started reading the scriptures for myself and I was delivered from it.

Your Servant in Christ,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Dad

I was scanning through, and have a question actually for anyone. If you had a spouse that you loved, why would you want to beat her up?

After all the tribulaton is God's wrath is it not? Down here on earth we would call that spousel abuse..

[Dad Ernie]

I was scanning through, and have a question actually for anyone.  If you had a spouse that you loved,  why would you want to beat her up?

After all the tribulaton is God's wrath is it not?  Down here on earth we would call that spousel abuse.. 

Greetings Spiritman,

First of all the "tribulation", even the "great tribulation" is NOT God's wrath. That can be found later in Revelation when in one hour destruction comes upon Babylon.

As for your analogy, why would God allow His Son to undergo such a horrific punishment and death? From history, it is believed that only one Apostle did not die some horrific punishment, although he was in prison in the last years of his life (I'm speaking of John). Then we have all the martyrs since the cross all the way up to the very end that suffer horrific fates, even right up to:

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 11:7-8 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

What makes you think YOU are so special as to avoid the fates of Jesus, the Apostles and all the martyrs? Don't you realize what the scriptures say?

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Are you something more special that those who go through the "great tribulation", the MULTITUDES BEYOND COUNT?

Oh, perhaps these are somebody else's bride?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest Be real]

Hello all. Just a quick question that I'm sure has already been covered, but as a college student with finals approaching quite quickly I don't have time to read all these posts Anyway, I had always believed in pre trib rapture, mainly because that's all I knew from The Left Behind Series, however; in a class discussion about the end times today, my professor mentioned that the idea of pre trib rapture was started by a teen girl in the 1700s who had a vision which eventually caught on as an actual belief. I guess I'm wondering whether this is true or not and what peoples thoughts were about it. Thanks!

[eric]

Be real,

The left behind series are no more than fiction and should be treated as such.

The books are man's word, the bible is God's word. God's wrath comes immediately after the trib, not during. The great trib is satan,s last ditch attempt to usurp God's authotity. IMO.

eric.

[Trinity]

G-man my highest regards to you bro

Is that statement a fact or is that what u have been told?

No offence, but thats abunch of hogwash, ill know exactly what is going on, LOTS of people will, Pretribers aint that stupid. We believe in the Pretrib but we also prepare for the worst

And if you didn't know that, you don't know that much about our Belief. So now you do

We study up on the rapture and we wouldn't fall away because we know we don't have to wait long, why would we fall away? Just wondering, because i have alot of friends who wouldn't fall away, EVEN KNOWING what would happen if we did we wouldn't.

We aren't that dumb so don't mistake us for idiots, and by telling me that we will fall away is just as bad as if you called us idiots- SO PLEASE GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD... WE WONT FALL AWAY! LOL

No matter how many times i say this they wont believe me, they rather listen to someone who doesn't even know anything, and tells us what we will do.

so ill say it again "PLEASE GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD... WE WONT FALL AWAY!"

Stop saying we will LOL

Your bro in Christ,

Joel

[spiritman]

I was scanning through, and have a question actually for anyone.

Edited April 27, 2005 by spiritman

[Guest]

The Bible says that no man knows the day or hour of Christ's return, not even Christ himself.  If you have a mid or post trib rapture, you could come pretty close to knowing the day and hour as the Bible clearly lines out what the time frame of the Tribulation is.  This works ONLY in context with a pre-trib rapture!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm! This strikes me as problematic on many levels.

First off, "no man knows...."

Notice it is present tense. That was 2000 years ago. Since that time, Jesus has reassumed his Godly perogatives, or, are we to believe that He is not all knowing? If He is all knowing now is it possible, that at some later time, that God would reveal this. Is it possible that He has already put in into scripture, but obscured our understanding until it is time to know? Just a thought.

Secondly, is not knowing the day or hour, the same as not knowing the month, the year, the century, of even the millennium? You said it yourself: "you could come pretty close to knowing the day and hour as the Bible clearly lines out what the time frame of the Tribulation is". Therefore, while we may not know, 2000 years ago, or even today, that could change, once the tribulation begins. What would gibe the tribulations saints more courage and hope, than know it is short and Jesus is about to return? Just another thought.

Your comment: "This works ONLY in context with a pre-trib rapture!", is true, only if you assume that no one will ever know the day or the hour, but that is not stated. You could add to your thinking, the passages about "coming as a thief", but in context, He always comes on those not ready as a thief. I am ready, and am not in darkness that that day shall overtake me. As a "posty", I don't find the day or hours verse the least bit troubling, as I am not forcing a particular meaning on it. More thoughts.

I cannot help but wonder, why the Bible would put, so many things about signs, timing, and sequence, if we are not to know. It strikes me, that this suggests that the Bible is a mystery, while I prefer to think of it as revelation.

The idea that this verse works only for a pre-trib viewpoint, is only true if your assumptions are true. Posties have verses that prove their view to, based on their understanding of what words mean, at least, I do.

Dig in, and look up!

[Guest]

...in a class discussion about the end times today, my professor mentioned that the idea of pre trib rapture was started by a teen girl in the 1700s who had a vision which eventually caught on as an actual belief. I guess I'm wondering whether this is true or not and what peoples thoughts were about it. Thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While most serious pretribulation rapturists will deny it many scholars believe that a Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald first foresaw what has become known as the pretribulation rapture in a vision circa 1830.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, sorta! Modern pretrib rapturism, got its boost from the Scofield reference Bible. It's use among seminary students, is the single largest contributor to the rise of pre-tribism. The Ryrie study Bible, Moody Institute, and the Dallas Theological Seminary, further popularized the teaching. Before that, was of course Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and the famous prophecy conferences. Margaret MacDonald, was indeed a player in this, but her famous 'vision', is not quite the same as modern pre-tribism, Margaret's vision is said to be a partial rapture, where part of the church remained to be persecuted by anti-christ. I am not sure that is the case. In any case Darby was a promoter of a pre-trib rapture, though he was not clear on this until 1839. However, in 1850 he claimed to have understood the pre-trib rapture, in 1830. In 1853, Darby said he visited Margaret MacDonald in 1830. Before Darby clearly taught a pre-trib rapture,Edward Irving did in 1830. Margaret wrote her vision down and sent it to Irving in that year, if you are interested in seeing the vision, you can here: http://www.o-project.com/worthystudy/macdonald.htm So, whether Margaret is the originator or not, the modern movement toward pre-tribism, began around 1830. This can be seen by other evidences. Somewhat of a two-edged sword for post-tribbers, is evidence from the cults which derived from American Christianity. Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, still belive in a post-trib rapture, as they separated from the church in the 1800s. Seventh Day Adventists, also preserved the post-trib belief common before the Darbyites and Irvingites. The orthodox church maintains that the catching up, is at the second coming, and always has. The Roman Catholic position, is a bit elusive to me, but it is certainly isn't pre-trib. Early protestants, believed the Pope was the antichrist, so they obviously were not pre-trib.

However, all of that aside, who taught it and at what time, is mostly irrelevant. The only thing that matters, is what the Bible teaches. Don't attack me here as a post-tribber, though that is what I am. This is a defense of pre-trib thread, so I purposely did not make any post-trib argument here, but attempted to shed some light on what role Margaret may or may not have played. Hope this brief response was thorough enough to do that.

[NITE OWL]

If the rapture is pretrib and the tribulation is 7 years, doesn't that mean Christ will be returning 7 years after the rapture?

Come on you guys. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!

Why would God reveal such an event to us and not His angels?

Why would He command us to watch if there's nothing to watch for?

Why tell us about the signs of the times if we're not going to be here?

How are we to endure to the end if we're not even here? Are you saying there is going to be great suffering in heaven?

Turn off you tv's, shut off your radio's, and pick up your bible and read.

[Guest Frankie boy]

Hi All,

My name is Frank, and I am new to this board. Saved in the early seventies. A pre tribber till 1982. Then I set aside the tapes, books and sermens and began to see if the scriptures said what man said they did. The inferrences of the pretrib scenario became obvious because scripture did not agree, imo, with what I was taught. Postrib was unveiled as the only scenario that was backed up with all the eschatological texts, when I took off my pretrib glasses.

I will not be going over all the 12 pages of posts, but would like to express my belief in the key texts. I see that many that post, put in to much too dijest in one post and the tendency leads to pretext instead of context. All texts must agree, but not all in one or two posts. So I hope to take one or two key texts at a time and tell you why I believe what I believe.

None of us have all the answers, nor can both pre and post be right. One is scriptural and one based on inferrence and escapism. I wonder what all the martyrs would say about escaping the tribulations of their day?

I'll post soon and will welcome any loving responses.

"We all still see thru a glass darkly"

In Him,

Frankie boy