Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

YOU can keep saying it is a ONE TIME EVENT but 

what you don't see is the ONE TIME EVENT is of THE DEAD.  

You got a scripture?  Just one or two, please.

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

It is not that complicated.  Jesus was involved in all of these things that you mention.  Jesus has full knowledge of these events and relates them to John.  John relates these things to us.  Jesus tells John, "this is the first resurrection".  Because of the source and reliability of the source, I can with assurance say this is the first resurrection.

The more simple it is, the more it is of God.  God is not the author of confusion. 

If there is a need for ANY explanations to go with a belief and another person can't read exactly what you believe for themselves in THE WORDS OF GOD, then it is not of God.  

That is why if you believe anything other than

those who come to faith before the first death, 

who sow the natural body, are raised in the spiritual body

follow Him to go be where He is,

every man in his own order

because they NEVER DIE

making them of the first KIND of resurrection

and are not of the resurrection of the DEAD when Christ returns on the last day

because neither doth corruption inherit incorruption

I agree. 

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

You got a scripture?  Just one or two, please.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

You do understand that those who never die, IF THEY were to be the ones

BEING RE-RAISED when Christ returns 

it would have to be written and the LIVING in Christ shall rise first

REMEMBER

NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT INCORRUPTION

SO IT CAN'T BE THE LIVING BEING RAISED UP 



 

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHO IS RAISED?  THE LIVING OR THE DEAD THE FROM THE CORRUPTION?


THE LIVING WHO HAVE RETURNED WITH CHRIST HAVE ALREADY BEEN RAISED UP, HAVE THEY NOT?  


EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Spiritually. Not physically.

Sorry, I missed these...


Not just in this 'physical natural realm' but ALSO in the 'spiritual none the less physical realm'.   


If in this life we pass from death to life, why in the next we would pass from life to death?  

THINK ABOUT WHO exactly would like to get you back into the bondage of death.  

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

If we are already risen they why is the resurrection such a big deal? So we die, rise up, have new bodies, but then are resurrected later? And we don't sleep like Paul said we do?

We sleep as IN ADAM


we rise as in Christ


The RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD is such a big deal because THAT IS WHO THE LIVING WILL RULE AND REIGN OVER.  IF the dead don't rise, and all the dead have been destroyed, then LETS JUST SKIP THE LORDS DAY, have the alive and remaining changed and AND go on to the NHNE.  We don't need a 'reward' before the reward.  

God wants ALL to come to repentance.  THE WHOLE plan has to cover that.  We know there are those who have never heard the words of God.  GOD IS NOT GOING TO DISCARD THEM.  They CAN'T have followed Christ to heaven, they DIDN'T KNOW THE WAY

so they die and go be with the dead.  MANY OF THEM are really good and just people.  They just never came to faith.  Many of them are awful people who won't love God no matter what, but THEY ALSO NEVER HEARD Gods truth, and since it is GODS WILL that all come to repentance, 

WE HAVE THE LORDS DAY in which the DEAD are resurrected, NOT TO SIT UPON THRONES as that goes to those of the FIRST KIND OF RESURRECTION, (those who came to faith BEFORE THEY DIED and those who slept under the old covenant who came to repentance and were raised up when Jesus led the captivity captive to heaven)

but to be TAUGHT 

and at the end, when Satan is loosed, THEY TOO will go through TRIBULATION,


and even with all the living as priests teaching Gods words and ways for 1000 years


we will still witness 

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

So you see, EVERY SAVED SOUL needs to be a PRIEST for the Lords Day.  

Makes you realize how evil evil really is.  They won't be changed now and they won't be changed then 

BUT GOD WON'T GIVE UP, no matter what, till the very end.  THAT is why we are to be HAPPY when someone dies in the name of the Lord.  THEY are DOING A SERVICE TO GOD.  They are HELPING to get the things WRITTEN that need to be written for a JUST GOD TO PERFORM A JUST JUDGMENT.  

Again, off topic.  I'll stop

 

[Selah7]

28 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

it would have to be written and the LIVING in Christ shall rise first

No, it’s the dead in Christ who are raised first—Those Christians and martyrs who have already died in the flesh and are in heaven with Christ.  They come with Jesus preceding those who are alive and remain.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No. They follow Him AFTER they are raised to life! God is not bringing Yeeshuwa` (Jesus) "from Heaven"; He is bringing Him "to Israel!" And, He is bringing those who were resurrected, WITH HIM "to Israel," as well!

Are you saying what I think you are saying?  

Are you saying you don't believe any of these? 


"Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;" John 16:10 KJV


"A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father." John 16:16 KJV


"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father." John 16:25 KJV


"I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father." John 16:28 KJV


"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11 KJV

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24 KJV


"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV


"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33 KJV


"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:2 KJV





 

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Is He or is He not the author of confusion.  BECAUSE SOMEONE IS

when what is written isn't what is meant.  



WHEN IS IT WE ARE RAISED TO LIFE?  When we come to faith, we are passed from death unto life.  We are told we NEVER DIE.  

So if we were to pass from life
back to death
then back to life.  That would be down and outright confusion.   


 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH! Why WOULD He turn around and head back?

Agreed, no going back to heaven.

 

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Somehow, you have this strange idea that I'm "pre trib!" I'm NOT! I said I USED TO BE "pre trib" long ago! It IS talking about the Second Advent!

BIG HUGE APOLOGIES TO YOU.  


 

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Again, you're "preaching to the choir."

I TRULY HOPE AND PRAY I WILL NEVER DO THAT AGAIN, I can not say I am sorry enough.  I hate it when someone does that to me and I have done it to you a few times lately.  AGAIN< I am very sorry.  I truly did not remember.  

 

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

When we are seized, we are taken up into the sky, but NO HIGHER! We are flown to the Middle East to be with our Lord, and to help in the war!

As LONG AS you are speaking of the ALIVE and REMAINING, I am totally with you here.  


 

 

[DeighAnn]

16 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

No, it’s the dead in Christ who are raised first—Those Christians and martyrs who have already died in the flesh and are in heaven with Christ.  They come with Jesus preceding those who are alive and remain.  

Yes, and if one is DEAD in Christ then one is DEAD and not LIVING as the LIVING HAVE FOLLOWED HIM 

while the DEAD didn't know the way and had to wait for His return.  

SOMEONE WHO NEVER DIES will NEVER BE DEAD.   SO if one has been SAVED

As in Adam the first body dies, the NEVER DIE are raised up AT THAT TIME,  sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body, to go on living in heaven with the GOD OF THE LIVING

If one has NEVER COME TO LIFE, has always been dead, and has been buried, has gone to the place of the dead, has remained in death hell the grave, they are the DEAD.  Calling them the DEAD IN CHRIST doesn't make them one of the NEVER DIE aka the LIVING.  

AS IN ADAM ALL DIE

AS IN CHRIST WILL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.  That alive comes by faith which is a never die alive eternal

or by being raised up DEAD, maybe 'alive' as in body, but none the less dead as in FAITH in GOD, as in walking around but still in danger of the 2nd death.  


WHAT you can't seem to understand is the DEAD who are raised from the corruption of the earth the grave, hell, death, COME ALIVE, but remain A PART OF THE DEAD WHO HAVE TO FACE THE GWTJ.  

The living, those raised up at the first death of the flesh are judged at the seat of Christ in HEAVEN IN FAITH, and their works are rewarded

While the DEAD, those raised up having descended at the first death to hell, are raised up from the PLACE OF THE DEAD and will be judged by works at the GWTJ

Got to RIGHTLY DIVIDE.  
 

[farouk]

8 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, and if one is DEAD in Christ then one is DEAD and not LIVING as the LIVING HAVE FOLLOWED HIM 

while the DEAD didn't know the way and had to wait for His return.  

SOMEONE WHO NEVER DIES will NEVER BE DEAD.   SO if one has been SAVED

As in Adam the first body dies, the NEVER DIE are raised up AT THAT TIME,  sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body, to go on living in heaven with the GOD OF THE LIVING

If one has NEVER COME TO LIFE, has always been dead, and has been buried, has gone to the place of the dead, has remained in death hell the grave, they are the DEAD.  Calling them the DEAD IN CHRIST doesn't make them one of the NEVER DIE aka the LIVING.  

AS IN ADAM ALL DIE

AS IN CHRIST WILL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.  That alive comes by faith which is a never die alive eternal

or by being raised up DEAD, maybe 'alive' as in body, but none the less dead as in FAITH in GOD, as in walking around but still in danger of the 2nd death.  


WHAT you can't seem to understand is the DEAD who are raised from the corruption of the earth the grave, hell, death, COME ALIVE, but remain A PART OF THE DEAD WHO HAVE TO FACE THE GWTJ.  

The living, those raised up at the first death of the flesh are judged at the seat of Christ in HEAVEN IN FAITH, and their works are rewarded

While the DEAD, those raised up having descended at the first death to hell, are raised up from the PLACE OF THE DEAD and will be judged by works at the GWTJ

Got to RIGHTLY DIVIDE.  
 

@DeighAnn I do love the verse: "absent from the body"; 'present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5.8).

[Selah7]

18 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

WHAT you can't seem to understand is the DEAD who are raised from the corruption of the earth the grave, hell, death, COME ALIVE, but remain A PART OF THE DEAD WHO HAVE TO FACE THE GWTJ.  

Those who don’t make the first resurrection will go through the .  Millennium.  They are called the (spiritually) dead and will be tested again at the GWTJ.  Understand?

[DeighAnn]

37 minutes ago, farouk said:

@DeighAnn I do love the verse: "absent from the body"; 'present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5.8).

Yes, we are raised up in the quickened by Christ living spiritual body 

at the death of our as in Adam death of the flesh

Seriously, EXACTLY as it is written.  Sown a natural, raised a spiritual.  

I can't tell you how my heart breaks for those who refuse to believe when the alive and remaining will be gathered.... 

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Do you realize that THAT VERSE would be made NULL AND VOID if indeed Christ came for any reason before that?  

Do you realize that Christ would/could never give the warning 'do not be deceived by any man' if none of the 'men' would be here to be deceived?

Do you realize that for Christ to leave the right hand of God BEFORE Satan is kicked out of heaven (enemies made footstool) HE WOULD HAVE TO DISOBEY A DIRECT COMMAND OF GOD?


I have had those who have tried to convince me that 'return' and come are two different things but I have to believe GOD doesn't do that.  God is not out to 'trip us up' or deceive us somehow, that would be Satan.  

Those who are 'left behind' RECEIVE the promises of God.  

Christ PRAYS we NOT be taken out of the world but KEPT from evil PROVING we don't need to be 'pre trib' raptured, but more than that do you think JESUS who is saying the words of God could say those words if indeed there was a pre trib event of any kind other than the beginning of sorrows?  

WE just need to KEEP the faith and put on the ARMOR, cause when we do, WE COME TO UNDERSTAND the whole plan of God, and how GOD uses/will use HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE to do the things that need to be done for a JUST JUDGMENT Day that will come upon the dead, and a REWARD to the LIVING at the judgment seat of Christ, for those who willingly PICK UP THEIR CROSS, just like Christ willingly picked up His,  not looking to save their lives but to LOOKING TO THE JOY THAT COMES AFTER by doing the job that needs to presently be done.  

Why do those who want to be pre trib raptured want to be pre trib raptured?  I can tell you what they used to say before being confronted and so changed their 'words' but almost always slip back into the 'God wouldn't hurt the bride'  OR kill the body of Christ'


THERE IS GOING TO BE DEATH and destruction everywhere.  All Christians are going to be killed ect.  

BUT what does GOD ACTUALLY THINK?

28And fear not them which kill the body,

OUR DEATH, as in Adam, is NOTHING TO FEAR because we DON'T DIE at all. 

Even the DEAD won't die for 1000 years.  



BUT THE DEAD do have to worry, not being of the first resurrection as the DEAD face the 2nd death in the...
but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And that is a different thought. That isn't the LOF, but it is...is it...what?.

OK, going to have to do some praying and meditating on that.  Destroy body and soul in hell before the LOF? 

does that work hand in hand with

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Always something new detail to take into account.  GOT TO LOVE THE WORDS OF GOD.  Never gets boring...and keeps us on the narrow...

Been off topic all day...so I'll stop