Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[n2thelight]

17 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

That's correct n2. Our souls never dies and never sleeps, just our corpse dies and await a resurrection when we pass away. No such thing as soul sleep.

Now look again at 1 Thessalonians 4:14. See the word sleep in there?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him......

Paul here is NOT talking about the soul. This is the corpse he's referring to. Look at other translations too, they all point to the corpse (that died or sleep), not the soul.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (ASV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (BBE) For if we have faith that Jesus underwent death and came back again, even so those who are sleeping will come again with him by God's power.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (CEB) Since we believe that Jesus died and rose, so we also believe that God will bring with him those who have died in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (CJB) do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (CSB) Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-thessalonians/4-14-compare.html

I'm just posting the first 5 translations. The rest also say the same thing, they either asleep or died. This verse is clearly referring to the corpses that has died and fallen asleep. Not the souls that are alive and never dies.

And you can confirm this too because in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, it said Jesus raises the dead in-Christ, not the souls.

Now back to Matthew 24:29-31, the elects in heaven are not the souls. They're the elects of the church. This is not a rapture scripture as you can't rapture people already in heaven.

Matthew 24:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So how did the elects get to heaven in the first place? It's given right here in Isaiah 26:19-27:1. They are told to wait until after the indignation is over when Christ sends His angels to gather (summon) them after the tribulation.

Isaiah 26:19-27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

²⁰ Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

²¹ For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong,
Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
Leviathan that twisted serpent;
And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

The resurrection part of the rapture is shown in verse 19. This happens before Christ descend upon the earth in judgment.  

 

 

 

 

The flesh will not be raised,it's done with,at death or the return of Christ,whichever happens first...

[Psalms37:4]

3 hours ago, n2thelight said:

The flesh will not be raised,it's done with,at death or the return of Christ,whichever happens first...

What you're talking about does this have anything to do with 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 or 1 Corinthians 15 in general?

[n2thelight]

32 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

What you're talking about does this have anything to do with 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 or 1 Corinthians 15 in general?

That would be correct

[Psalms37:4]

17 hours ago, inchrist said:

So Christ fulfilling passover is what? Gobbledygook? Or how about firstfruits? 

Nothing in the bible is gobbledygook, just your translation of it is. The firstfruits are the elects of both the church and Israel. The firstfruits of Israel: 144,000 are sealed and will endure the tribulation on earth.  The firstfruits of the church are taken into heaven before the tribulation. Not at the 7th trumpet.

Hebrews 12:19-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. ²⁰ (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” ²¹ And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, ²³ to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who areregistered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

²⁵ See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, ²⁶ whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” ²⁷ Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.

²⁸ Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. ²⁹ For our God is a consuming fire.

~ Hebrews 12:19 is the trump of God (1 Thes 4:16), not the feast of trumpets.

~ In Hebrews 12:22-24, the church of the firstborn is seen taken into heaven.

~ In Hebrews 12:26 declares He will once again destroy the earth.

~ In Hebrews 12:29, God will destroy the earth by fire.

No matter how you slice and dice the bible, the rapture of the church will always end up Pre-Trib. No 7th trumpet rapture / second coming mentioned here.

 

 

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Nope, no where does christ state he comes on a normal day.

In fact the days of Noah were anything but normal

 

In His own words, when He comes for the church, it will be a normal day just like all other days when people will be doing normal daily routines business as usual activities. This is clearly pre-trib. 

Matthew 24:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Matthew 24:37-39 New Living Translation (NLT)

³⁷ “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. ³⁸ In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat.³⁹ People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.

Who's gonna be throwing parties when their heads are being cut off during the 7th trumpet? 

 

 

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The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

Does it look like they are aware of what is about to happen? Go on, does it?

Don't be such a blatant nitwit. Do I have to hold you by the hand on every topic? Do you not know the difference between Daniel's 70th week and the Time of Jacob's Trouble? Both are prophecies concerning Israel but each have a different time frame. Jacob's Trouble is the entire second half of Daniel's 70th week, a time in which Israel endures it's tribulation. Their period of tribulation is only 3.5 years, not 7 years. 3.7 years to be accurate when you add in the 75 days. 

Israel will be at peace after they sign the peace treaty and will live normal lives while the world is in chaos. By the middle of the tribulation, just before the AoD, Israel will be doing normal daily routine activities up until the time their tribulation begins. When that happens, it'll be like the days of Lot when people were eating, drinking, marrying and giving into marriage before fire came down and destroyed the city.

Luke 17:26-29 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁶ And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: ²⁷ They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. ²⁸ Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; ²⁹ but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

11 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

That would be correct

You're partially correct however I'm working on other replies atm but I'll show you what 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is really about later. It's a little lengthy to explain as I can't just post a 1 or 2 sentence answer. 

[n2thelight]

16 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

You're partially correct however I'm working on other replies atm but I'll show you what 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is really about later. It's a little lengthy to explain as I can't just post a 1 or 2 sentence answer. 

Actually it starts a few verses up

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father.

[Psalms37:4]

14 hours ago, inchrist said:

and passover is also annually.....crAzy right

When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain. So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God and they stood at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder” (Exodus 19:13-16

Every year, at the Feast of Trumpets, the trumpet blasts reminded Israel that they were a people under covenant; a nation who had accepted the responsibilities of being God’s people.

The feast of trumpets has nothing to do with the trumpet in the rapture. The Trump of God isn't blown every year.

The rapture is not an annual event simply because the feast of trumpet is. They're not the same.

 

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Look at that, rams horn also sounded on the 7th trumpet for Rahab a gentile believer escorted out by two men.

So are you trying to tell us that whenever there is a group of 7 trumpets in the world being blown, they're the same trumpets John described in the book of Revelation?

Seen any angels lately when you heard those trumpets sounding off?

 

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Wrong timing again

Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking … so that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND …  and I will rain upon him (mankind)  … an overflowing rain , and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone” (Ezekiel 38:16-22).

Yeah your timing is off because you got the wrong scripture ole brilliant one.

Hosea 6:1-3 has nothing to do with Ezekiel 38:16-22.

 

 

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Beast kingdom walls broken down here, Battle of jericho also backs up my claim

The book of Joshua is not a prophetic book! God never called Joshua to be a prophet.

The old testament prophetic books consists of the last 16 books in the OT from Isaiah all the way to Malachi, with some prophecies in the books of Psalms and Proverbs, and a minutely small portion found in the historic books of the old testament. One-third of the entire bible is prophetic with 99% of all prophecies written describes the second coming while less than 1% on the first coming. 

You have A LOT to learn about the bible, especially prophecy. 

 

 

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You telling me the 5th seal is opened after the 6th seal?

You do realize those souls in the 5th seal are dead?

No, I'm gonna tell you you're blind buddy. Go back and reread what I wrote. There's nothing written about the 5th seal. It's ALL about the 6th seal.

 

 

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Those are cosmic signs, which occurs after the tribulation

immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Please stick with Christs chronological order and try again.

The 6th seal does NOT occur after the tribulation.  The wrath of the lamb does NOT begin after the tribulation.

And we're debating the 6th seal, not Matthew 24:29. You should stop pulling verse out of context, STRAWMAN! 

 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+6%3A12-17&version=NKJV;ERV

Revelation 6:12-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

¹² I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. ¹³ And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. ¹⁴ Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. ¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, ¹⁶ and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

30 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Actually it starts a few verses up

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Yes I know. That's why I said "or 1 Corinthians 15 in general?"

"What you're talking about does this have anything to do with 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 or 1 Corinthians 15 in general?"

I'm familiar with 1 Corinthians 15 and will cover it with you tomorrow because it'll be a little lengthy to write up.

The only thing I'll say for now is yes, it's correct, after 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 is fulfilled, no one will ever die again.....ever!

And Isaiah 65:20 is correct too. Both 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 and Isaiah 65:20 does NOT conflict each other. The bible is correct. There is a great misunderstanding amongst the church.

Isaiah 65:20 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁰ “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

Do you not understand what memeorials or reenactments or rehearsals are?

 

You can't reenact something that hasn't happened yet. The rapture is still future.

[Psalms37:4]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

Hebrews 12:19 is the trump of God (1 Thes 4:16), not the feast of trumpets.

In correct again. Notice the chronological order of exodus 19:18 - 20 which hebrews 12:19 draws from mount Sinai paralleled to mt zion

Wrong again! As usual! Making the same mistake twice!

This is the Mount Zion in heaven, the place where God dwells. A place where the heavenly Jerusalem is.

Hebrews 12:19-22 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. ²⁰ (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” ²¹ And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

²² But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

 

 

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

18Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the LORD descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. (Shaking of the earth Hebrews12:26 - who's voice shook the earth)

That's not Hebrews 12:26. 

Hebrews 12:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁶ whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.”

 

Blind!

 

 

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

Then......

19: When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder.

 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.…

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Luke 19

Then....

20The LORD came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the LORD called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.…

That's not Luke 19:19

Luke 19:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’

Blind!

 

That's not Luke 19:30 either.

Luke 19:30 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁰ saying, “Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever sat. Loose it and bring it here.

Blind!

 

That's not Luke 19:20 either. Three strikes you're out! I think it's time to pack your bags.

Luke 19:20 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁰ “Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief.

Blind!

 

 

 

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

Nope

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Christ just referenced the tribulation to matthew 24:15 as jacobs trouble, and since its before the shaking of the heavens and earth, it is therefore before the 6th seal and clearly where you well find alot of dead people being the 5th seal.

Here. Read'em and weep! You're not doing so good here buddy. In fact, you're not doing so good anywhere.

 

² “Both the Time of Jacob’s Trouble (Jer. Jer. 30:6-7) and the Great Tribulation (Mtt. Mat. 24:21) are described as the unparalleled time of trouble. Since there can only be one such time, both will cover the same time period. The Great Tribulation will begin in the middle of the seven-year 70th week. We know this because Jesus indicated that the Great Tribulation will begin with the abomination of desolation (Mtt. Mat. 24:15-21), which will take place in the middle of the 70th week (Dan. Dan. 9:27). . . . Since the Great Tribulation will begin in the middle and terminate at the end of the 70th week and will cover the same time period as the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, the Time of Jacob’s Trouble will also cover the entire second half of the 70th week.”—Ibid., 23-24.

 

 

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

Provide scriptures for this fluff.

 

1) You honestly didn't know that Israel will be at peace after they sign a peace treaty?

2) You honestly didn't know the world will be enduring the tribulation in chaos while Israel is in peace and safety in the first 3.5 years?

3) You honestly did't know Israel's peace treaty will only last 3.5 years into the tribulation and the treaty will be broken by the mid point?

 

These are basic common knowledge, bible prophecy 101, Sunday school stuffs. How do you not know any of these? You don't know any of this stuff and yet you constantly argue in disagreement and address the things I post as fluff.