Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[ghtan]

 

 

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

 

Ah! Maybe this is the root of the difference between our views. Are you suggesting that 5:10 takes place during the end time? What is there in the text that leads you to that belief? From my point of view, everything in ch 4&5 is still first century AD; the end time starts in ch 6.

 

The Lord’s Day, or Day of the Lord shall be like none other shall ever be.

It will begin with the Lord Jesus being given His own throne in Rev 4:2, the beginning of His thousand year reign, or as futurists proclaim; the millennium.

 

John said in Rev 1:10 that he was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and this isn’t Sunday. He heard the voice of Jesus having received all power announcing in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty, and in Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

 

From that point in time, or vision viewpoints given John we read in Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Other references to that same Lord’s Day are expressions and idioms such as “The Day of the Lord, in the last days, and in that day.

 

2 Pet 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This Day lasts a thousand years.

 

Isa 2:2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Where is this?

Heb 12:22 tells us where this is at. But ye are come unto mount Sion (Zion in Hebrew), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

Isaiah 2:2    And it shall come to pass in the last days . . Idiom 

 

Isaiah 2:11  . . the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

 

Isa 4:1  And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2  In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

 

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

 

Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

 

If "Lord's Day" in 1:10 is the end time day of the Lord, why does John not use the latter term that appears everywhere else in Scripture? Instead, he uses the adjectival form of Lord, i.e. the phrase is literally "Lordy Day". The use of a different form should alert us to the distinct possibility that John is not referring to the Day of the Lord.

 

In some later christian documents, e.g. the Didache ch 14, this adjectival form is used to mean the day of the week that christians set aside for their services, which later became Sunday. Unsurprisingly then that most commentators think 1:10 refers to Sunday. Eugene Peterson in his highly paraphrased bible "The Message" goes so far as to translate it as Sunday.

 

If you think 1:10 actually refers to the Day of the Lord, are you suggesting that John was transported into the future, to the end time? This would be the only occasion of time travel in the whole bible! Why then does John say he WAS in the Spirit ON the Lord's Day and not that he was TAKEN in the Spirit TO the Lord's Day? I think the way it is worded also suggests that he was not referring to the end time.

 

Blessings.   

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

 

Ah! Maybe this is the root of the difference between our views. Are you suggesting that 5:10 takes place during the end time? What is there in the text that leads you to that belief? From my point of view, everything in ch 4&5 is still first century AD; the end time starts in ch 6.

 

The Lord’s Day, or Day of the Lord shall be like none other shall ever be.

It will begin with the Lord Jesus being given His own throne in Rev 4:2, the beginning of His thousand year reign, or as futurists proclaim; the millennium.

 

John said in Rev 1:10 that he was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and this isn’t Sunday. He heard the voice of Jesus having received all power announcing in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty, and in Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

 

From that point in time, or vision viewpoints given John we read in Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Other references to that same Lord’s Day are expressions and idioms such as “The Day of the Lord, in the last days, and in that day.

 

2 Pet 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This Day lasts a thousand years.

 

Isa 2:2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Where is this?

Heb 12:22 tells us where this is at. But ye are come unto mount Sion (Zion in Hebrew), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

Isaiah 2:2    And it shall come to pass in the last days . . Idiom 

 

Isaiah 2:11  . . the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

 

Isa 4:1  And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2  In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

 

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

 

Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

 

If "Lord's Day" in 1:10 is the end time day of the Lord, why does John not use the latter term that appears everywhere else in Scripture? Instead, he uses the adjectival form of Lord, i.e. the phrase is literally "Lordy Day". The use of a different form should alert us to the distinct possibility that John is not referring to the Day of the Lord.

 

In some later christian documents, e.g. the Didache ch 14, this adjectival form is used to mean the day of the week that christians set aside for their services, which later became Sunday. Unsurprisingly then that most commentators think 1:10 refers to Sunday. Eugene Peterson in his highly paraphrased bible "The Message" goes so far as to translate it as Sunday.

 

If you think 1:10 actually refers to the Day of the Lord, are you suggesting that John was transported into the future, to the end time? This would be the only occasion of time travel in the whole bible! Why then does John say he WAS in the Spirit ON the Lord's Day and not that he was TAKEN in the Spirit TO the Lord's Day? I think the way it is worded also suggests that he was not referring to the end time.

 

Blessings.   

 

If John was not transported to the future, we read in Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Are the things hereafter from that Sunday forward?

To me John being caught up to heaven is a type of the Church being caught up if that makes any sense.

Rev 4:1 says was caught up in spirit into heaven, and was to write of things hereafter from that point.

“Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

Was this in 70 AD? Wouldn’t this also include Revelation Chapter Six since it must be included in the hereafter after Jesus receives His throne in Rev 4:2?

 

Thanks.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Larry 2,

 

I see this point about the timing is very crucial. I have been considering this & will address what I believe in my next thread of Rev. ch. 6 & 7. And thanks for the encouragement on that thread, Rev. 4 & 5.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[ghtan]

 

 

 

 

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

 

Ah! Maybe this is the root of the difference between our views. Are you suggesting that 5:10 takes place during the end time? What is there in the text that leads you to that belief? From my point of view, everything in ch 4&5 is still first century AD; the end time starts in ch 6.

 

The Lord’s Day, or Day of the Lord shall be like none other shall ever be.

It will begin with the Lord Jesus being given His own throne in Rev 4:2, the beginning of His thousand year reign, or as futurists proclaim; the millennium.

 

John said in Rev 1:10 that he was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and this isn’t Sunday. He heard the voice of Jesus having received all power announcing in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty, and in Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

 

From that point in time, or vision viewpoints given John we read in Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Other references to that same Lord’s Day are expressions and idioms such as “The Day of the Lord, in the last days, and in that day.

 

2 Pet 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This Day lasts a thousand years.

 

Isa 2:2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Where is this?

Heb 12:22 tells us where this is at. But ye are come unto mount Sion (Zion in Hebrew), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

Isaiah 2:2    And it shall come to pass in the last days . . Idiom 

 

Isaiah 2:11  . . the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

 

Isa 4:1  And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2  In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

 

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

 

Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

 

If "Lord's Day" in 1:10 is the end time day of the Lord, why does John not use the latter term that appears everywhere else in Scripture? Instead, he uses the adjectival form of Lord, i.e. the phrase is literally "Lordy Day". The use of a different form should alert us to the distinct possibility that John is not referring to the Day of the Lord.

 

In some later christian documents, e.g. the Didache ch 14, this adjectival form is used to mean the day of the week that christians set aside for their services, which later became Sunday. Unsurprisingly then that most commentators think 1:10 refers to Sunday. Eugene Peterson in his highly paraphrased bible "The Message" goes so far as to translate it as Sunday.

 

If you think 1:10 actually refers to the Day of the Lord, are you suggesting that John was transported into the future, to the end time? This would be the only occasion of time travel in the whole bible! Why then does John say he WAS in the Spirit ON the Lord's Day and not that he was TAKEN in the Spirit TO the Lord's Day? I think the way it is worded also suggests that he was not referring to the end time.

 

Blessings.   

 

If John was not transported to the future, we read in Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Are the things hereafter from that Sunday forward?

To me John being caught up to heaven is a type of the Church being caught up if that makes any sense.

Rev 4:1 says was caught up in spirit into heaven, and was to write of things hereafter from that point.

“Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

Was this in 70 AD? Wouldn’t this also include Revelation Chapter Six since it must be included in the hereafter after Jesus receives His throne in Rev 4:2?

 

Thanks.

 

"Hereafter" is evidently a loose term for "the future" because John is shown things that cover more than 1,000 years since it includes the millennium. So the term includes both the near term and distant future. It even includes flashbacks, e.g. the birth and ascension of Jesus in 12:5. I think ch 5 is also a flashback, of the death and resurrection of Jesus hence the emphasis on him being the lamb that was slain in 5:9.

 

I note you have not answered my questions. Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Blessings.

Edited June 16, 2015 by ghtan

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

 

 

 

You do realize that Rev 5:10 was future viewpoint to the time Jesus takes His rule on the Lord’s Day don’t you? I do realize that Moses is in paradise though I have no idea those will be a part of the Church.

 

Ah! Maybe this is the root of the difference between our views. Are you suggesting that 5:10 takes place during the end time? What is there in the text that leads you to that belief? From my point of view, everything in ch 4&5 is still first century AD; the end time starts in ch 6.

 

The Lord’s Day, or Day of the Lord shall be like none other shall ever be.

It will begin with the Lord Jesus being given His own throne in Rev 4:2, the beginning of His thousand year reign, or as futurists proclaim; the millennium.

 

John said in Rev 1:10 that he was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and this isn’t Sunday. He heard the voice of Jesus having received all power announcing in Rev 1:8,  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty, and in Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.

 

From that point in time, or vision viewpoints given John we read in Rev 1:19, Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Other references to that same Lord’s Day are expressions and idioms such as “The Day of the Lord, in the last days, and in that day.

 

2 Pet 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This Day lasts a thousand years.

 

Isa 2:2  And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Where is this?

Heb 12:22 tells us where this is at. But ye are come unto mount Sion (Zion in Hebrew), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

Isaiah 2:2    And it shall come to pass in the last days . . Idiom 

 

Isaiah 2:11  . . the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

 

Isa 4:1  And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isa 4:2  In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

 

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

 

Isa 11:11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 

Zec 2:11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

 

Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 

 

If "Lord's Day" in 1:10 is the end time day of the Lord, why does John not use the latter term that appears everywhere else in Scripture? Instead, he uses the adjectival form of Lord, i.e. the phrase is literally "Lordy Day". The use of a different form should alert us to the distinct possibility that John is not referring to the Day of the Lord.

 

In some later christian documents, e.g. the Didache ch 14, this adjectival form is used to mean the day of the week that christians set aside for their services, which later became Sunday. Unsurprisingly then that most commentators think 1:10 refers to Sunday. Eugene Peterson in his highly paraphrased bible "The Message" goes so far as to translate it as Sunday.

 

If you think 1:10 actually refers to the Day of the Lord, are you suggesting that John was transported into the future, to the end time? This would be the only occasion of time travel in the whole bible! Why then does John say he WAS in the Spirit ON the Lord's Day and not that he was TAKEN in the Spirit TO the Lord's Day? I think the way it is worded also suggests that he was not referring to the end time.

 

Blessings.   

 

If John was not transported to the future, we read in Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.

 

Are the things hereafter from that Sunday forward?

To me John being caught up to heaven is a type of the Church being caught up if that makes any sense.

Rev 4:1 says was caught up in spirit into heaven, and was to write of things hereafter from that point.

“Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

Was this in 70 AD? Wouldn’t this also include Revelation Chapter Six since it must be included in the hereafter after Jesus receives His throne in Rev 4:2?

 

Thanks.

 

"Hereafter" is evidently a loose term for "the future" because John is shown things that cover more than 1,000 years since it includes the millennium. So the term includes both the near term and distant future. It even includes flashbacks, e.g. the birth and ascension of Jesus in 12:5. I think ch 5 is also a flashback, of the death and resurrection of Jesus hence the emphasis on him being the lamb that was slain in 5:9.

 

I note you have not answered my questions. Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Blessings.

 

Larry 2 - Rev 4:1  Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If the birth of Christ was referring to the Man Child of Rev 12:5, would it be included in the future view John was being shown?

Do you recognize the following scripture as being of the end times?

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  

 

What of Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

I’ll back up a bit here with Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

At the birth of Jesus we read no such account. Evidently since the wise men went to the home of Jesus instead of the manger and it was probably near two years after Jesus’ birth. Satan didn’t know He was born, the wise men had taken their eyes off the guiding star and sought Herod’s help; seemingly an emissary of Satan because he had all two year olds and under slaughtered. Where was Satan of Rev 12:4 to devour Jesus as soon as He was born?

 

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child (Jesus) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 

Mat 2:16  Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

 

The Man Child of Rev 12:5 is not Jesus! You might consider them to be taken up as the 144,000 and seen in heaven in Rev 14:1

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Possibly consider the five wise virgins of Mat 25:1.  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Jesus is the bridegroom)

 

ghtan - I note you have not answered my questions.

 

Larry 2 - I’m not sure which questions I haven’t answered since we have gone into so many directions. Please repeat them if you will.

 

Ghtan - Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Larry 2 - Dear Brother ghtan, I’m not sure this is a good answer, but the Church includes everyone that has ever received Jesus as their Savior; that which John had seen, the things which are during this present age of the Church, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Rev 1:19)

Jesus did not restrict the book of Revelation to only those seven churches. If we leave our first love as the Ephesians did according Rev 2:4. They were to repent. Can we also fail to Jesus first in our lives? 

The Church in Asia were the first recipients of God’s Revelation, and today we benefit from the same judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

[ghtan]

 

Larry 2 - Rev 4:1  Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If the birth of Christ was referring to the Man Child of Rev 12:5, would it be included in the future view John was being shown?

Do you recognize the following scripture as being of the end times?

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  

 

What of Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

I’ll back up a bit here with Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

At the birth of Jesus we read no such account. Evidently since the wise men went to the home of Jesus instead of the manger and it was probably near two years after Jesus’ birth. Satan didn’t know He was born, the wise men had taken their eyes off the guiding star and sought Herod’s help; seemingly an emissary of Satan because he had all two year olds and under slaughtered. Where was Satan of Rev 12:4 to devour Jesus as soon as He was born?

 

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child (Jesus) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 

Mat 2:16  Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

 

The Man Child of Rev 12:5 is not Jesus! You might consider them to be taken up as the 144,000 and seen in heaven in Rev 14:1

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Possibly consider the five wise virgins of Mat 25:1.  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Jesus is the bridegroom)

 

ghtan - I note you have not answered my questions.

 

Larry 2 - I’m not sure which questions I haven’t answered since we have gone into so many directions. Please repeat them if you will.

 

Ghtan - Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Larry 2 - Dear Brother ghtan, I’m not sure this is a good answer, but the Church includes everyone that has ever received Jesus as their Savior; that which John had seen, the things which are during this present age of the Church, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Rev 1:19)

Jesus did not restrict the book of Revelation to only those seven churches. If we leave our first love as the Ephesians did according Rev 2:4. They were to repent. Can we also fail to Jesus first in our lives? 

The Church in Asia were the first recipients of God’s Revelation, and today we benefit from the same judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

Hi Larry,

 

Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Thanks.

[Larry 2]

 

 

Larry 2 - Rev 4:1  Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If the birth of Christ was referring to the Man Child of Rev 12:5, would it be included in the future view John was being shown?

Do you recognize the following scripture as being of the end times?

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  

 

What of Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

I’ll back up a bit here with Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

At the birth of Jesus we read no such account. Evidently since the wise men went to the home of Jesus instead of the manger and it was probably near two years after Jesus’ birth. Satan didn’t know He was born, the wise men had taken their eyes off the guiding star and sought Herod’s help; seemingly an emissary of Satan because he had all two year olds and under slaughtered. Where was Satan of Rev 12:4 to devour Jesus as soon as He was born?

 

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child (Jesus) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 

Mat 2:16  Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

 

The Man Child of Rev 12:5 is not Jesus! You might consider them to be taken up as the 144,000 and seen in heaven in Rev 14:1

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Possibly consider the five wise virgins of Mat 25:1.  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Jesus is the bridegroom)

 

ghtan - I note you have not answered my questions.

 

Larry 2 - I’m not sure which questions I haven’t answered since we have gone into so many directions. Please repeat them if you will.

 

Ghtan - Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Larry 2 - Dear Brother ghtan, I’m not sure this is a good answer, but the Church includes everyone that has ever received Jesus as their Savior; that which John had seen, the things which are during this present age of the Church, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Rev 1:19)

Jesus did not restrict the book of Revelation to only those seven churches. If we leave our first love as the Ephesians did according Rev 2:4. They were to repent. Can we also fail to Jesus first in our lives? 

The Church in Asia were the first recipients of God’s Revelation, and today we benefit from the same judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

Hi Larry,

 

Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Larry 2 - Woah! Shots fired. Recipient offended, and shooting at everything that shows its head. 

At least you’re still in the game. Thanks. 

 

ghtan - Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

Larry 2 - I don’t think John is still writing letters to anyone. What you have to understand is that the Church consisting of all its individual members is exactly that; the one body of Christ regardless of being spread to many locations. The Church is not restricted to Asia, and as judgment is pronounced by Jesus, it is applicable to all Christians at the time the book of Revelation was written, and to us today, and in the future. By protecting His word to us, God has made it available applicable to our own spiritual walks.

I.e., have we left our first love, or the fervent love we once had as the church of Ephesus did according to Rev 2:4? What is their judgment? Rev 2:5  . . (I) will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

Jesus is seen in Rev 1:20  . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These things saith He (Jesus) that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  

What does this mean?

 

Types and examples

1 Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

There are many that believe the letters to the churches in Revelation Chapters Two & Three represents not only the Church at its inception, but its failures & growth throughout this present age.

This also happened in Israel with the twelve tribes as they were judged.

 

(Exodus 28:8-10) To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods were placed in order of birth on Aaron’s shoulders. To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods were placed in order of birth.

Rueben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph, & Benjamin.

 

(Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel. This is akin to the candlestick being removed out of its place.

Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Rueben, Simeon, Gad, Ephrain, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, & Naphtali.

 

It must be evident unless you are Preterist, that those who are to be spared the temptation to come upon all the earth were not caught up to God at the time as we read of the portion of the One Church IN Philadelphia. Rev 3:10.

 

ghtan - As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Larry 2 - Since Rev 12:5 is subsequent to Rev 4:1, “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,”

who do you think the Man Child represents, and why?

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

[ghtan]

 

 

 

Larry 2 - Rev 4:1  Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If the birth of Christ was referring to the Man Child of Rev 12:5, would it be included in the future view John was being shown?

Do you recognize the following scripture as being of the end times?

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  

 

What of Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

I’ll back up a bit here with Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

At the birth of Jesus we read no such account. Evidently since the wise men went to the home of Jesus instead of the manger and it was probably near two years after Jesus’ birth. Satan didn’t know He was born, the wise men had taken their eyes off the guiding star and sought Herod’s help; seemingly an emissary of Satan because he had all two year olds and under slaughtered. Where was Satan of Rev 12:4 to devour Jesus as soon as He was born?

 

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child (Jesus) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 

Mat 2:16  Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

 

The Man Child of Rev 12:5 is not Jesus! You might consider them to be taken up as the 144,000 and seen in heaven in Rev 14:1

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Possibly consider the five wise virgins of Mat 25:1.  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Jesus is the bridegroom)

 

ghtan - I note you have not answered my questions.

 

Larry 2 - I’m not sure which questions I haven’t answered since we have gone into so many directions. Please repeat them if you will.

 

Ghtan - Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Larry 2 - Dear Brother ghtan, I’m not sure this is a good answer, but the Church includes everyone that has ever received Jesus as their Savior; that which John had seen, the things which are during this present age of the Church, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Rev 1:19)

Jesus did not restrict the book of Revelation to only those seven churches. If we leave our first love as the Ephesians did according Rev 2:4. They were to repent. Can we also fail to Jesus first in our lives? 

The Church in Asia were the first recipients of God’s Revelation, and today we benefit from the same judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

Hi Larry,

 

Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Larry 2 - Woah! Shots fired. Recipient offended, and shooting at everything that shows its head. 

At least you’re still in the game. Thanks. 

 

ghtan - Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

Larry 2 - I don’t think John is still writing letters to anyone. What you have to understand is that the Church consisting of all its individual members is exactly that; the one body of Christ regardless of being spread to many locations. The Church is not restricted to Asia, and as judgment is pronounced by Jesus, it is applicable to all Christians at the time the book of Revelation was written, and to us today, and in the future. By protecting His word to us, God has made it available applicable to our own spiritual walks.

I.e., have we left our first love, or the fervent love we once had as the church of Ephesus did according to Rev 2:4? What is their judgment? Rev 2:5  . . (I) will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

Jesus is seen in Rev 1:20  . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These things saith He (Jesus) that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  

What does this mean?

 

Types and examples

1 Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

There are many that believe the letters to the churches in Revelation Chapters Two & Three represents not only the Church at its inception, but its failures & growth throughout this present age.

This also happened in Israel with the twelve tribes as they were judged.

 

(Exodus 28:8-10) To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods were placed in order of birth on Aaron’s shoulders. To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods were placed in order of birth.

Rueben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph, & Benjamin.

 

(Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel. This is akin to the candlestick being removed out of its place.

Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Rueben, Simeon, Gad, Ephrain, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, & Naphtali.

 

It must be evident unless you are Preterist, that those who are to be spared the temptation to come upon all the earth were not caught up to God at the time as we read of the portion of the One Church IN Philadelphia. Rev 3:10.

 

ghtan - As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Larry 2 - Since Rev 12:5 is subsequent to Rev 4:1, “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,”

who do you think the Man Child represents, and why?

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

Sorry if I offended you but since I was not getting any answer to my questions posed a few at a time, I thought I might as well ask a whole lot of them in the hope that I would get one or two answers at least.

 

If, as you say, the letters are actually to the whole church over the centuries, why not write one long letter to the entire body of Christ instead of seven short letters to specific churches, especially as there is overlap between Pergamum and Thyatira and also specific references to people like the Nicolaitans and Antipas? The answer is simple: they are real letters to real churches in first century AD. That is the natural reading. It is unwise to complicate things just so that John can travel to the end time in 1:10.

 

Since you cannot provide supporting scripture to link the man-child to the 144,000, I take it to mean you admit there is none. Therefore, the natural reading is again best; most readers would instinctively think of Jesus when they read 12:4. Most commentators agree. It proves that there are flashbacks in the visions and so “hereafter” should not be interpreted narrowly to refer only to the future. Btw, you still have not said whether this is Rapture No 3 or No 4 if you believe the man-child is the 144,000.

 

Best regards.

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

 

Larry 2 - Rev 4:1  Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

If the birth of Christ was referring to the Man Child of Rev 12:5, would it be included in the future view John was being shown?

Do you recognize the following scripture as being of the end times?

Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  

 

What of Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

I’ll back up a bit here with Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

At the birth of Jesus we read no such account. Evidently since the wise men went to the home of Jesus instead of the manger and it was probably near two years after Jesus’ birth. Satan didn’t know He was born, the wise men had taken their eyes off the guiding star and sought Herod’s help; seemingly an emissary of Satan because he had all two year olds and under slaughtered. Where was Satan of Rev 12:4 to devour Jesus as soon as He was born?

 

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child (Jesus) with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

 

Mat 2:16  Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

 

The Man Child of Rev 12:5 is not Jesus! You might consider them to be taken up as the 144,000 and seen in heaven in Rev 14:1

Rev 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

Possibly consider the five wise virgins of Mat 25:1.  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. (Jesus is the bridegroom)

 

ghtan - I note you have not answered my questions.

 

Larry 2 - I’m not sure which questions I haven’t answered since we have gone into so many directions. Please repeat them if you will.

 

Ghtan - Anyway, I have another one for you: If John is transported to the end time in 1:10, why does God next tell him to write to the churches in those seven cities, some of which do not even exist anymore? Are we to expect the rebuilding of those abandoned cities before the end time? I hope you see how little sense that makes.

 

Larry 2 - Dear Brother ghtan, I’m not sure this is a good answer, but the Church includes everyone that has ever received Jesus as their Savior; that which John had seen, the things which are during this present age of the Church, and the things which shall be hereafter. (Rev 1:19)

Jesus did not restrict the book of Revelation to only those seven churches. If we leave our first love as the Ephesians did according Rev 2:4. They were to repent. Can we also fail to Jesus first in our lives? 

The Church in Asia were the first recipients of God’s Revelation, and today we benefit from the same judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

Hi Larry,

 

Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Larry 2 - Woah! Shots fired. Recipient offended, and shooting at everything that shows its head. 

At least you’re still in the game. Thanks. 

 

ghtan - Will there be real letters sent out in the end time, or are they fictitious letters? If fictitious letters, why choose these seven local churches and not more famous ones like Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, or Antioch, since the end time church covers the globe? If real letters, who would they be sent out to?

 

Larry 2 - I don’t think John is still writing letters to anyone. What you have to understand is that the Church consisting of all its individual members is exactly that; the one body of Christ regardless of being spread to many locations. The Church is not restricted to Asia, and as judgment is pronounced by Jesus, it is applicable to all Christians at the time the book of Revelation was written, and to us today, and in the future. By protecting His word to us, God has made it available applicable to our own spiritual walks.

I.e., have we left our first love, or the fervent love we once had as the church of Ephesus did according to Rev 2:4? What is their judgment? Rev 2:5  . . (I) will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

Jesus is seen in Rev 1:20  . . the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These things saith He (Jesus) that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  

What does this mean?

 

Types and examples

1 Cor 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

There are many that believe the letters to the churches in Revelation Chapters Two & Three represents not only the Church at its inception, but its failures & growth throughout this present age.

This also happened in Israel with the twelve tribes as they were judged.

 

(Exodus 28:8-10) To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods were placed in order of birth on Aaron’s shoulders. To start with the 12 tribes worn on the Ephods were placed in order of birth.

Rueben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph, & Benjamin.

 

(Exodus 28:29) On the Breastplate of Judgment they are changed in order which are 10 full tribes and two half tribes; Joseph died and the tribe of Levi were priests and led the march by 2000 cubits and were not numbered with tribes of Israel. This is akin to the candlestick being removed out of its place.

Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Rueben, Simeon, Gad, Ephrain, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, & Naphtali.

 

It must be evident unless you are Preterist, that those who are to be spared the temptation to come upon all the earth were not caught up to God at the time as we read of the portion of the One Church IN Philadelphia. Rev 3:10.

 

ghtan - As for the man-child, is there any indication in the text that he represents the 144,000? I don't see any. Given that you say the ascension of John in 4:1 will be that of Smyrna and Philadelphia, which of the other five churches do the 144,000 represent when they ascend? Btw, is this Rapture No. 3 or No. 4 in your scheme?

 

Larry 2 - Since Rev 12:5 is subsequent to Rev 4:1, “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,”

who do you think the Man Child represents, and why?

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

Sorry if I offended you but since I was not getting any answer to my questions posed a few at a time, I thought I might as well ask a whole lot of them in the hope that I would get one or two answers at least.

 

If, as you say, the letters are actually to the whole church over the centuries, why not write one long letter to the entire body of Christ instead of seven short letters to specific churches, especially as there is overlap between Pergamum and Thyatira and also specific references to people like the Nicolaitans and Antipas? The answer is simple: they are real letters to real churches in first century AD. That is the natural reading. It is unwise to complicate things just so that John can travel to the end time in 1:10.

 

Since you cannot provide supporting scripture to link the man-child to the 144,000, I take it to mean you admit there is none. Therefore, the natural reading is again best; most readers would instinctively think of Jesus when they read 12:4. Most commentators agree. It proves that there are flashbacks in the visions and so “hereafter” should not be interpreted narrowly to refer only to the future. Btw, you still have not said whether this is Rapture No 3 or No 4 if you believe the man-child is the 144,000.

 

Best regards.

 

It's evident we don't agree, and so I would ask your interpretation of Revelation Chapters Two & Three. Will it matter how we believe in the scheme of eternity? Possibly in how we prepare, and the hope we have. I still do not know which questions you have asked I haven't addressed, and will be glad to go over them again one at a time. 

 

You ask whether I believe the 144,000 is the third or fourth rapture; I do not know. Rapture is a term designating being seized, or caught away.

Enoch

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 

 

Elijah

2 King 2:11   And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

Jesus

Act 1:9  And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 

 

Captivity - Abraham's Bosom

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 

Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This was the paradise the thief went with Jesus to from the cross. It is now in heaven. 

 

John in Spirit on the Lord's Day

Rev 1:10   many saints arose (Mat 27:52)  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 

 

Paul to Paradise

2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 

2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 

 

 

Future Raptures shown to John of saints with Jesus

Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 

 

Rev 4:6  in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 

 

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 

 

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

 

You say there is no supporting evidence to the 144,000 being the man Child of Rev 12:5. I have no idea how to answer speculation. Scripture tells us that the man child there is in the context of things future which you don't believe. How do the 144,000 get to heaven in your opinion? I've proposed the fact that Jesus was not the Man child we read of in Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 

 

Even the wise men did not appear at the stable but at considerable time afterward at the home of where the Child Jesus was. Where was this Satan spoken of in Rev 12:4? Do you really think this is speaking of the young child Jesus?

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 

 

You asked: "If, as you say, the letters are actually to the whole church over the centuries, why not write one long letter to the entire body of Christ instead of seven short letters to specific churches, especially as there is overlap between Pergamum and Thyatira and also specific references to people like the Nicolaitans and Antipas?"

 

You might want to ask Jesus this question, but my thinking is that if they appear as scripture to us He had reason. It does seem some times overlapped much like the going from law to grace, but the judgments certainly apply to be different.

 

Brother, I've attempted to show why I believe as I do, and we read in 1 Pet 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. 

[ghtan]

 

 

Sorry if I offended you but since I was not getting any answer to my questions posed a few at a time, I thought I might as well ask a whole lot of them in the hope that I would get one or two answers at least.

 

If, as you say, the letters are actually to the whole church over the centuries, why not write one long letter to the entire body of Christ instead of seven short letters to specific churches, especially as there is overlap between Pergamum and Thyatira and also specific references to people like the Nicolaitans and Antipas? The answer is simple: they are real letters to real churches in first century AD. That is the natural reading. It is unwise to complicate things just so that John can travel to the end time in 1:10.

 

Since you cannot provide supporting scripture to link the man-child to the 144,000, I take it to mean you admit there is none. Therefore, the natural reading is again best; most readers would instinctively think of Jesus when they read 12:4. Most commentators agree. It proves that there are flashbacks in the visions and so “hereafter” should not be interpreted narrowly to refer only to the future. Btw, you still have not said whether this is Rapture No 3 or No 4 if you believe the man-child is the 144,000.

 

Best regards.

 

It's evident we don't agree, and so I would ask your interpretation of Revelation Chapters Two & Three. Will it matter how we believe in the scheme of eternity? Possibly in how we prepare, and the hope we have. I still do not know which questions you have asked I haven't addressed, and will be glad to go over them again one at a time. 

 

You ask whether I believe the 144,000 is the third or fourth rapture; I do not know. Rapture is a term designating being seized, or caught away.

Enoch

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 

 

Elijah

2 King 2:11   And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

Jesus

Act 1:9  And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 

 

Captivity - Abraham's Bosom

Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 

Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This was the paradise the thief went with Jesus to from the cross. It is now in heaven. 

 

John in Spirit on the Lord's Day

Rev 1:10   many saints arose (Mat 27:52)  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 

 

Paul to Paradise

2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 

2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 

 

 

Future Raptures shown to John of saints with Jesus

Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. 

 

Rev 4:6  in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 

 

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 

 

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

 

You say there is no supporting evidence to the 144,000 being the man Child of Rev 12:5. I have no idea how to answer speculation. Scripture tells us that the man child there is in the context of things future which you don't believe. How do the 144,000 get to heaven in your opinion? I've proposed the fact that Jesus was not the Man child we read of in Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 

 

Even the wise men did not appear at the stable but at considerable time afterward at the home of where the Child Jesus was. Where was this Satan spoken of in Rev 12:4? Do you really think this is speaking of the young child Jesus?

Mat 2:11  And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 

 

You asked: "If, as you say, the letters are actually to the whole church over the centuries, why not write one long letter to the entire body of Christ instead of seven short letters to specific churches, especially as there is overlap between Pergamum and Thyatira and also specific references to people like the Nicolaitans and Antipas?"

 

You might want to ask Jesus this question, but my thinking is that if they appear as scripture to us He had reason. It does seem some times overlapped much like the going from law to grace, but the judgments certainly apply to be different.

 

Brother, I've attempted to show why I believe as I do, and we read in 1 Pet 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. 

 

Re your question about my interpretation of ch 2&3, I said previously that I think they read most naturally as seven real letters to seven real churches in first century AD. The implication is that John was still in first century AD when he wrote them and not transported to the end time as you hold. We can apply their contents as we apply Paul’s letters which were also written to real churches. But you are entitled to your opinion. I just wanted to show you the many problems that it invites.

 

As for the man-child in 12:5, is the context really the future? I don’t see anything in 12:1-5 that needs to refer to the end time. Satan has always been a dragon and v 4 alludes to his leading a third of the angels astray when he fell in the past. This is a widely held view. Therefore all of 12:1-5 is a flashback.

 

Are you saying that you interpret the man-child as the 144,000 simply because you have to find a way for them to be in heaven in 14:1? I’m afraid that does not sound like a good reason.

 

Regards.