Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[ghtan]

 

Hi Larry,

 

Are you suggesting that there will be a pre-trib rapture as well as a mid-trib rapture? I think that would be a first. If you are going to try to prove that by word-association, as implied by your list of scriptures, I think that is fraught with dangers. I was reading Isaiah 14:12 the other day and noticed that 'morning star' is used of the king of Babylon and some think it is also a allusion to satan. Recall that in Revelation 22:16, Jesus is quoted calling himself the bright 'morning star'. This is a a rare term in the bible so one would think there is a close relationship, but surely there is not. Shows that the bible often use the same terms without necessarily intending to link them. Context is far more important. I personally don't think you can have both a pretrib rapture and midtrib rapture but I am certainly all ears to hear what you have.

 

Thanks. To begin with I will attempt to show the arrival of the different groups of the Church caught up to heaven after the Lord’s Day begins, and then we can discuss whether these things are true.

 

As I have previously stated, the order of being caught up, or raptured as has become a standard when referring to it will be according to 1 Thes 4:16-17.

 

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Rev 1:10 says that John was caught forward from where he was in spirit to the Lord’s Day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (this voice is Jesus)

 

Rev 1:8  I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

John is told to write of three viewpoints, and the things which shall be hereafter will be what I am going to expound starting with Rev 4:1.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

From the future Lord’s Day, John is invited in spirit to heaven.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

Who do we see with Jesus before the tribulation?

Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 4:6  And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

What are these?

 Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

As one brother brought out, other bibles use the word “Men” instead of “Us, Regardless these are with Jesus in heaven.

 

ASV Rev 5:9 - Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

ASV 5:10 - “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

The next group seen by John in heaven stands before the throne.

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third group we see in Heaven is the 144,000.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. This is the heavenly Jerusalem.

Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

OK, is this making any sense to you? I will be glad to go into greater detail if it does, and the reward these different saints is according to the judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

 

Hi there again!

You seem to be suggesting that there will be a rapture of dead believers, which you think is pictured in Rev 4:1, followed later by a rapture of the living believers, in Rev 7:9. Am I reading you right? If so, I don't think you will satisfy the pretribbers that way. They want to believe that the living church is raptured in 4:1 so as to escape the seals of chapter 6.

Furthermore, what then do you do with the ascension of the two witnesses in Rev 11? Is that a third rapture? The case for viewing the ascension of the two witnesses as a symbol of the rapture is far stronger (not that I agree with it) than that of John because: (i) two individuals is a better symbol of the church than one individual; and (ii) the two witnesses go up in BODY whereas John ascends in SPIRIT.

As for 7:9, I am in full agreement with you that the multitude symbolises the raptured church. On the other hand, I don't think the 144k are in heaven, because they are later in 9:4 shielded from the locust plague which obviously is on earth.

[Larry 2]

 

 

Hi Larry,

 

Are you suggesting that there will be a pre-trib rapture as well as a mid-trib rapture? I think that would be a first. If you are going to try to prove that by word-association, as implied by your list of scriptures, I think that is fraught with dangers. I was reading Isaiah 14:12 the other day and noticed that 'morning star' is used of the king of Babylon and some think it is also a allusion to satan. Recall that in Revelation 22:16, Jesus is quoted calling himself the bright 'morning star'. This is a a rare term in the bible so one would think there is a close relationship, but surely there is not. Shows that the bible often use the same terms without necessarily intending to link them. Context is far more important. I personally don't think you can have both a pretrib rapture and midtrib rapture but I am certainly all ears to hear what you have.

 

Thanks. To begin with I will attempt to show the arrival of the different groups of the Church caught up to heaven after the Lord’s Day begins, and then we can discuss whether these things are true.

 

As I have previously stated, the order of being caught up, or raptured as has become a standard when referring to it will be according to 1 Thes 4:16-17.

 

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Rev 1:10 says that John was caught forward from where he was in spirit to the Lord’s Day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (this voice is Jesus)

 

Rev 1:8  I (Jesus) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

John is told to write of three viewpoints, and the things which shall be hereafter will be what I am going to expound starting with Rev 4:1.

Rev 1:19  Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

From the future Lord’s Day, John is invited in spirit to heaven.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

 

Who do we see with Jesus before the tribulation?

Rev 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 4:6  And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

What are these?

 Rev 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Rev 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

As one brother brought out, other bibles use the word “Men” instead of “Us, Regardless these are with Jesus in heaven.

 

ASV Rev 5:9 - Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

ASV 5:10 - “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

 

The next group seen by John in heaven stands before the throne.

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third group we see in Heaven is the 144,000.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. This is the heavenly Jerusalem.

Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

OK, is this making any sense to you? I will be glad to go into greater detail if it does, and the reward these different saints is according to the judgment we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three.

 

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

 

Hi there again!

You seem to be suggesting that there will be a rapture of dead believers, which you think is pictured in Rev 4:1, followed later by a rapture of the living believers, in Rev 7:9. Am I reading you right? If so, I don't think you will satisfy the pretribbers that way. They want to believe that the living church is raptured in 4:1 so as to escape the seals of chapter 6.

Furthermore, what then do you do with the ascension of the two witnesses in Rev 11? Is that a third rapture? The case for viewing the ascension of the two witnesses as a symbol of the rapture is far stronger (not that I agree with it) than that of John because: (i) two individuals is a better symbol of the church than one individual; and (ii) the two witnesses go up in BODY whereas John ascends in SPIRIT.

As for 7:9, I am in full agreement with you that the multitude symbolises the raptured church. On the other hand, I don't think the 144k are in heaven, because they are later in 9:4 shielded from the locust plague which obviously is on earth.

 

Hi back at you.   

 

I am saying that as those believers that die before Jesus comes in the air for them will be caught up individually to be a part of 1 Thes 4:16-17. How would they be present before the throne of God otherwise?

 

2 Cor 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Cor 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

As for them caught up before the tribulation according to Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6, I read of only two churches of Revelations Chapters Two & Three that fit that category, and that is Smyrna that remain faithful unto death (Rev 2:10), and Philadelphia that patiently keep the word of God, and are told they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (Rev 3:10).

 

As for those 144,000 that will be sealed, we are too at this time. Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, and any in Christ in that time  

 

According to  Rev 9:4 all believers will be kept from harm, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 

[ghtan]

 

Hi back at you.   

 

I am saying that as those believers that die before Jesus comes in the air for them will be caught up individually to be a part of 1 Thes 4:16-17. How would they be present before the throne of God otherwise?

 

2 Cor 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Cor 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

As for them caught up before the tribulation according to Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6, I read of only two churches of Revelations Chapters Two & Three that fit that category, and that is Smyrna that remain faithful unto death (Rev 2:10), and Philadelphia that patiently keep the word of God, and are told they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (Rev 3:10).

 

As for those 144,000 that will be sealed, we are too at this time. Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, and any in Christ in that time  

 

According to  Rev 9:4 all believers will be kept from harm, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 

 

 

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following:

 

(i) How many raptures do you envisage?

(ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring?

(iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions?

 

Thanks.

[Larry 2]

 

 

Hi back at you.   

 

I am saying that as those believers that die before Jesus comes in the air for them will be caught up individually to be a part of 1 Thes 4:16-17. How would they be present before the throne of God otherwise?

 

2 Cor 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Cor 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

As for them caught up before the tribulation according to Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6, I read of only two churches of Revelations Chapters Two & Three that fit that category, and that is Smyrna that remain faithful unto death (Rev 2:10), and Philadelphia that patiently keep the word of God, and are told they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (Rev 3:10).

 

As for those 144,000 that will be sealed, we are too at this time. Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption, and any in Christ in that time  

 

According to  Rev 9:4 all believers will be kept from harm, but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 

 

 

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following:

 

(i) How many raptures do you envisage?

(ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring?

(iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 

John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1.

John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning.

 

The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation.

Rev 7:14  . .  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet.

 

Thanks.

[ghtan]

 

 

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following:

 

(i) How many raptures do you envisage?

(ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring?

(iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 

John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1.

John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning.

 

The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation.

Rev 7:14  . .  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Still confused. You speak of three groups; are you saying that there will be three raptures or that there will be one rapture that produces those three groups? A simple answer would help.

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following:

 

(i) How many raptures do you envisage?

(ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring?

(iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 

John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1.

John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning.

 

The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation.

Rev 7:14  . .  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Still confused. You speak of three groups; are you saying that there will be three raptures or that there will be one rapture that produces those three groups? A simple answer would help.

 

I'm sorry ghtan, there are seven churches judged in Revelation Chapters Two & Three, and they all get to heaven in stages.

To get to heaven they must be caught up; dead or alive, and exactly in that order.

 

First rapture - There are two of the churches represented which are Smyrna, and Philadelphia with Jesus when He receives His throne in Rev 4:2. To me they are those dead in Christ to rise first (Rev 2:10), and those alive when Jesus comes for them (Rev 3:10); these were kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

 

Second rapture - The Great Multitude caught up out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14). . . These are they which came out of great tribulation. (Rev 7:15)  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple . .

 

Third rapture - The Man Child (Rev 12:5). The woman of Rev 12:1, brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Who are these? Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion Heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

I have no idea if the two witnesses would be considered another rapture or not, and the reason I say this is because they don't seem to fit the order of the dead in Christ, and then those that remain alive of 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

 

I hope this is a better example of what I am saying. Thanks.

[ghtan]

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following:

 

(i) How many raptures do you envisage?

(ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring?

(iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 

John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1.

John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning.

 

The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation.

Rev 7:14  . .  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Still confused. You speak of three groups; are you saying that there will be three raptures or that there will be one rapture that produces those three groups? A simple answer would help.

 

I'm sorry ghtan, there are seven churches judged in Revelation Chapters Two & Three, and they all get to heaven in stages.

To get to heaven they must be caught up; dead or alive, and exactly in that order.

 

First rapture - There are two of the churches represented which are Smyrna, and Philadelphia with Jesus when He receives His throne in Rev 4:2. To me they are those dead in Christ to rise first (Rev 2:10), and those alive when Jesus comes for them (Rev 3:10); these were kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

 

Second rapture - The Great Multitude caught up out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14). . . These are they which came out of great tribulation. (Rev 7:15)  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple . .

 

Third rapture - The Man Child (Rev 12:5). The woman of Rev 12:1, brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Who are these? Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion Heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

I have no idea if the two witnesses would be considered another rapture or not, and the reason I say this is because they don't seem to fit the order of the dead in Christ, and then those that remain alive of 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

 

I hope this is a better example of what I am saying. Thanks.

 

 

Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures?    

[Larry 2]

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following:

 

(i) How many raptures do you envisage?

(ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring?

(iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign.

Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 

John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1.

John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning.

 

The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation.

Rev 7:14  . .  These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Still confused. You speak of three groups; are you saying that there will be three raptures or that there will be one rapture that produces those three groups? A simple answer would help.

 

I'm sorry ghtan, there are seven churches judged in Revelation Chapters Two & Three, and they all get to heaven in stages.

To get to heaven they must be caught up; dead or alive, and exactly in that order.

 

First rapture - There are two of the churches represented which are Smyrna, and Philadelphia with Jesus when He receives His throne in Rev 4:2. To me they are those dead in Christ to rise first (Rev 2:10), and those alive when Jesus comes for them (Rev 3:10); these were kept from the temptation to come upon all the world.

 

Second rapture - The Great Multitude caught up out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14). . . These are they which came out of great tribulation. (Rev 7:15)  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple . .

 

Third rapture - The Man Child (Rev 12:5). The woman of Rev 12:1, brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Who are these? Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion Heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

I have no idea if the two witnesses would be considered another rapture or not, and the reason I say this is because they don't seem to fit the order of the dead in Christ, and then those that remain alive of 1 Thes 4:16-17.

Rev 11:11  And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 

Rev 11:12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

 

I hope this is a better example of what I am saying. Thanks.

 

 

Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures?    

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness.

Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life.

 

What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11,  . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . ,

 

Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne.

If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there.

 

God bless you in Jesus.

[Marilyn C]

Good detail there Larry.

[ghtan]

 

 

Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures?    

 

 

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness.

Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life.

 

What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11,  . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . ,

 

Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne.

If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there.

 

God bless you in Jesus.

 

Hi Larry,

 

You make a very good point. Why does John not describe a multitude of believers surrounding the throne in 4:2? After all, he is quite prepared to do so in 7:9. The answer is simple - the rapture has not happened at this juncture! The absence of a multitude speaks against it.

 

It is doubtful we can equate the 24 elders with Smyrna and Philadelphia simply because all three mention crowns. The first rider also has a crown (6:2). So too the locusts (9:7)! Surely they do not symbolise believers too. These only show that crowns is a common symbol.

 

Indeed, if we equate characters simply on the basis of the same symbol, we would have to say that the rider on the white horse in 6:2 is Jesus because Jesus also rides on a white horse in 19:11. That would create more problems than it solves.