Conversation with those who believe Christ has NOT returned (2nd Advent) and will NOT be coming pre trib (rapture)

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Selah7 said:

[30] For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

What is it that gives the false messiah so much grief to the point he becomes indignant?  It looks like he becomes extremely wroth with God's elect who give him a spiritual bruising—If you check out the phrase "the ships of Chittim" in Hebrew you will find it means "the appointed bruisers.”

BDB (Brown Driver Briggs) Definition #H3794kitt?y / kitt?y?y 
Chittim or Kittim = “bruisers” 
1) a general term for all islanders of the Mediterranean Sea 
2) the descendants of Javan, the son of Japheth and grandson of Noah

Bible Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - Chittim, Kittim

Chittim, Kittim

(bruisers ), a family or race descended from Javan. ( Genesis 10:4 ;  1 Chronicles 1:7 ) Authorized Version KITTIM. Chittim is frequently noticed in Scripture. ( Numbers 24:24 ;  Isaiah 23::1,12  Isaiah 1,12 ;  Jeremiah 2:10 ;  Ezekiel 27:6 ;  Daniel 11:30 ) In the above passages, the "isles of Chittim," the "ships of Chittim, the "coasts of Chittim," are supposed to refer to the island of Cyprus. Josephus considered Cyprus the original seat of the Chittim. The name Chittim, which in the first instance had implied to Phoenicians only, passed over to the islands which they had occupied, and thence to the people who succeeded the Phoenicians in the occupation of them.

Interesting stuff. 

Dan 11:30-31 provides an interesting match with an historical event. The Romans and the grandson of Seleucus, Antiochus IV, fulfilled this.  You note 'coasts of Chittim' above. The following is from Strong's: 

[כִּתִּי] adjective, of a people always plural כִּתִּים כִּתִּיִּים; usually as

name, of a people = Cypriotes (compare Phoenician proper name, of a location כת כתי, Citium; on a connection with Kheta, –-t¹, –attê, חִתִּי, see WMMAsien u. Europa,345; — on Citium see Cesnola Gyprus 46 ff); — אֶרֶץ כִּתִּים Isaiah 23:1, כִּתִּיי֯ם Isaiah 23:12; כִּתִּים (as son of Yawan) Genesis 10:4 = 1 Chronicles 1:7; וְצִים ׳מִיַּד כ Numbers 24:24 ships from the side (direction) of Kittim; more Generally, of coast-lands of Mediterranean, אִיֵּי כִּתִּיִּים Jeremiah 2:10, אִיֵּי כִּתִּיִּם Ezekiel 27:6; even of Macedonian Greece, צִיִּים כִּתִּים Daniel 11:30 (only here as adjective, compare Bev) i.e. Grecian ships.

Or Kittiyiy {kit-tee-ee'}; patrial from an unused name denoting Cyprus (only in the plural); a Kittite or Cypriote; hence, an islander in general, i.e. The Greeks or Romans on the shores opposite Palestine -- Chittim, Kittim.

Notice the bold. 

This took place in about 168 BC. Antiochus IV led a campaign to fight against Egypt in 169 BC. While on his way with an army the Egyptians, Ptolemy's descendants, panicked and sent word to the Romans looking for protection and help against this massive Syrian force on the way to probably destroy them. 

The Romans met Antiochus IV between Israel and Alexandria near the shores of the Mediterranean, after the Romans had boarded ships from the coasts of the Mediterranean and sailed to meet Antiochus IV. 

At the meeting the Roman General leading the Roman force drew his sword, drew a circle around Antiochus IV and told him to make a decision whether to continue or withdraw before he stepped out of said circle. The Roman General making sure Antiochus IV knew the consequence of continuing would mean going to war against the Roman army.

Antiochus knew he would lose should the the Romans fight and so he withdrew. As he passed through Israel on the way back to Syria he did exactly as Dan 11:30-31 says. In 167 BC Antiochus IV fulfilled Dan 11:30-31 and is a matter of Jewish History:

"They must have given vent to their sentiment very freely; for only thus can the policy of extermination waged by Antiochus against the Jews and Judaism, two years later, 168, be explained. As long as he was occupied with preparations for his expedition against Egypt, Antiochus had no time for Palestine; but when the Romans compelled him to forego his plans of conquest, his rage at the unexpected impediment was wreaked upon the innocent Jews. An officer, Apollonius, was sent through the country with an armed troop, commissioned to slay and destroy. He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city. Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected. The officers charged with carrying out these commands did so with great rigor; a veritable inquisition was established with monthly sessions for investigation. The possession of a sacred book or the performance of the rite of circumcision was punished with death. On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (http://d3sva65x0i5hnc.cloudfront.net/V01p635001.jpg, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem.See Abomination of Desolation." [emphasis mine]

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

Dan 11:30-31 fulfilled.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Then in 70Ad what He said came true.

I did some further reading about 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. It seems the Christians fled the city when the saw the Romans coming. Seems a segment of the population knew the rebellion of the Jews was about to realize the consequences of their insurrection.

Before the Romans burned the Temple, before the sacking of the city, before the Roman invasion of the city, before the Romans surrounded the city, and probably while the Romans were on the march before they reached the city, the believers in Christ were already gone.

They did not wait around for the Romans to blockade the city so they were not in the city when it fell and the Temple burned. Ergo, it is not a fulfillment of Matt 24:15:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), THEN let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

The believers who fled were long gone before the sacking of the city and the destruction of the Temple; which only happened after the Romans finally breached the walls of the city, which means the A of D[which didn't happen in 70 AD in the first place] could have only taken places then, well after the believers were gone.

The believers did not wait in the city to see the A of D and only then flee to the mountains, as the prophecy says, they were gone before the Romans reached the city, or at the very least were allowed out of the city whilst the Titus and Vespasian were still feeling magnanimous; but still well before the destruction of the Temple and the sacking of the city. 

Seems the dispensational premillennialists aren't the only ones who speak to prophecy and fail to get it right.

 

[Selah7]

@Diaste  I agree with you that these 10 kings In Daniel 7:24 are not reigning yet.

Daniel 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: ...

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

I believe these ten kings will be present during the reign of the AC during the great hour of temptation. Perhaps they will accompany Satan as part of that entourage of  fallen angels who are cast out with him?

Edited June 26, 2021 by Selah7

[Selah7]

12 hours ago, Selah7 said:

@DeighAnn  I had edited my post so I’m posting the part you may have not read.  Before we discuss some of your other points,

What does Ezekiel 28:6-10 mean to you? I’ll post it again:

Ezekiel 28:6-8

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

I believe these “strangers” in Ezekiel 28:6-8 are the Elect.

And here’s yet another reference to the Elect doing what they were destined to do:  

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So when Satan and his fallen angles are cast out onto the earth, the "Elect" and those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them through the power given them in Christ.  God has promised that we have power over Satan, and God's protection is extended to each of those sealed in their minds. 

 

[Walter and Deborah]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I hope if you see something you think is wrong or just needs to be investigated more or you know where something goes you will jump in.  I think we can do this.  All we need do is pray for Gods wisdom and understanding and  help will arrive via the Holy Spirit BUT we need pray and to do it as a group if we are really looking for His Truth to be revealed (at least it is alot quicker that way)  Thank you looking forward to thoughts, questions and answers.  Thank you for the input.  Every bit helps...God Bless you and yours

Hi DeighAnn, How are you all ? , When we was going over the OP, we were thinking of a few scriptures that could be suitable: If interested.

The Revelation Of The Seventy Weeks:

Daniel 9:24-27

²⁴ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

²⁵ Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Beast Out Of The Sea:

Revelation 13:1-10

¹And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. ²And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. ³And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

⁴And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? ⁵And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. ⁶And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

⁷And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. ⁸And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ⁹If any man have an ear, let him hear. ¹⁰He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The Beast Out Of The Earth: 11-18

¹¹And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. ¹²And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. ¹³And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

¹⁴And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. ¹⁵And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

¹⁶And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: ¹⁷And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. ¹⁸Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Second Coming Of Christ:

Revelation 19:11-21

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

¹⁶ And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

¹⁸ That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

¹⁹ And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

²¹ And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Love, Walter and Debbie

Edited June 26, 2021 by Walter and Deborah
More info.

[DeighAnn]

18 hours ago, Selah7 said:

@DeighAnn  I had edited my post so I’m posting the part you may have not read.  Before we discuss some of your other points,

What does Ezekiel 28:6-10 mean to you? I’ll post it again:

Ezekiel 28:6-8

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

I think it is about the angels returning with Christ on the Lords day and Satan being bound for the 1000 years. 

But It's about the timing.   

The deadly wound has to take place BEFORE Satan 'heals' it because it is the healing that brings about image which brings about the worship which brings about the mark which brings about the refusal to worship which brings about the trials WHICH bring about the Holy Spirit speaking through us which brings about the 144,000 BEFORE they worship, which brings about...


Do you see where I am having the problem with the cause of the 'deadly wound' being by the Holy Spirit speaking?  I personally don't think it is a 'person' thing myself but if I did I would think it would more likely be the two witnesses that arrive RIGHT before Satan and the fallen angels, timing wise IDK haven't given it any time yet.  But the reason, doesn't change the TIMELINE.  We know it happens to one of the heads of the 1st beast WAY before TRials even come into play.  

Is this  REALLY HARD to put in details?  I am having a hard time already and haven't even set forth one scripture yet.  

But we know Jesus came 1st Advent, let Satan bruise His heel, and know that Satan will be cast and that ends with the 2nd Advent,  Jesus RETURNS TO crush his head.  Gods sottish children get 1000 years to receive HIS TRUTH, (Lords Day, Millennium, 1000 years) then Satan loosed brings about final division/judgment aka lake of fire or eternal life and we proceed to  NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH.   


Rev tells us the powers of kingdoms and their earthly kings come together under the ONE influence (all connected to the same body) of Satan to bring the world under one power which is the FINAL week of Daniel.    We know a religious figure comes to power and uses all the kingdoms of the first beast to bring in the one religion the world will  follow (we know that if they were claiming to be of God they are now commit adultery (harlots/whores) and become unfaithful to God).  We know the two witnesses are sent and  something bad happens to one of the heads and Satan somehow either in person or influence sets up the image to be worshipped.  WE KNOW THAT THIS IS MID WAY because once that 'image' is set up, WORSHIP is going to IT, not God anymore, which Hosea 6:6 covers in the one verse (midst of the week)  

Stuff happens but at the very end of the Trib, the two witness are killed raised as Lord returning, Lords Day begins.  

THAT IS WHAT I am going to try explain with scripture and I am pretty sure it is going to take me quite a bit of time.  Sorry taking so long but so much thought.  Don't think I have ever erased rewrote erased etc.  so much in one post before.  So please have patience with me.  D
 

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, Selah7 said:

5  Mohammedan's took the temple site itself – A.D.  636 to 1948

Israel became a nation but did that change the site itself or is it still as it was?  

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

" Be ye  therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not " ( Luke 12:40).

What is worse is when 'ye think not' goes for someone else.  One second they are here and the next they have gone on to that mansion in the sky.  Hopefully we are always ready.  Or did you mean something else?  D

[Selah7]

16 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The deadly wound has to take place BEFORE Satan 'heals' it because it is the healing that brings about image which brings about the worship which brings about the mark which brings about the refusal to worship which brings about the trials WHICH bring about the Holy Spirit speaking through us which brings about the 144,000 BEFORE they worship, which brings about...

Hey, D…. I’ve never said that the deadly wound takes place AFTER he heals it.  LOL!  Where did I say that?  

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

The pretrib lie is another example. What happens when the pretrib rapture doesn't happen and the world falls into chaos, falling apart all around us? These people were are so desperate for the rapture to take them away they will believe anyone who promises safety.

But again, they are already deceived. Only waiting for the deception to take physical form.

Though I totally agree with you here,  I hope you will help me with doing 

WHAT WE (you and I and anyone else seeking to find deeper truth) 

must do and that is

to ignore those who INTENTIONALLY PLACE STUMBLING BLOCKS in the path (AKA place THEMSELVES AND THEIR IDEAS IN THE middle of conversations that are not about WHAT THEY WANT TO PUT FORTH, just to make sure no one can, no matter what KIND OF FRUIT GOD CONSIDERS IT) of those seeking deeper understanding,  whether we have to put them on ignore or not.  To stir up strife and debate for the sole purpose of stirring up strife and debate must be the only goal as nothing new is ever said or revealed.  

If we don't, they will hijack every conversation every time because they  are incapable of restraining themselves and behaving like true Christians.  You wouldn't believe how long it took to word this post in HOPES it might help them restrain themselves. 

Look at how much time they have stolen already.  It is not ignorance, it is willful,  and so we must work around it or they win and that means Gods Word loses.  D