Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The words 'all these things shall be finished,' does not mean 'all these things will have started and will be finished later.'

It is a direct contradiction of what is said to say "Of course all the things were not finished at the end of the 3. 5 year time of the offering of the kingdom to Judah,' But they started then."

Starting something and something being completed are not the same. It did not say at the end of the 3.5 year period of persecution that all these will be started...it said they would be finished. Starting something does not mean it is finished. 

Shalom, Gary.

First, please put the words to which you are responding in quotes of your own using the quotation marks ("), as I did for you above. It doubles my work to have to go back and forth between your post and what I can quote from you. Thank you.

Second, please read what I last wrote! I hate having to re-write everything I said to one person for another person or from a previous post. It's not that I don't want you to have that information, I do! BUT, I'm getting to be an old man, and despite how fast I type, I can't work fast enough for info to be doubled! (I keep falling asleep on my own typing!)

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It was alleged that Antiochus died between 32-35. There is no death of anyone mentioned in 32-35. Saying  'the whole prophecy of the messenger is about what will happen to the children of Israel left in the land and what will happen to God's land,' does not make verses 32-35 show the death of Antiochus. 

His death is NOT IMPORTANT! The fact that he did not live through the Hasmodean dynasty does NOTHING to the things being recounted! In fact, his death was one of the REASONS WHY the war between Rome and Egypt started! Both were vying for the remnants of Antiochus's Empire, and the Roman Empire won!

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The second half of the tribulation does not occur after the Second Coming...It says 'immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days he will gather his elect...' The time of trouble is FINISHED at the end of the 3.5 year persecution of the saints...this means the time of trouble is not still going on. Finished means it has come to its completion. Saying immediately after the tribulation Jesus will come does not mean in the middle of the tribulation Jesus will come. 

Actually, this is lock-stepped with one's choice for his or her Eschatology. ANYONE who believes that ...

"The tribulation = the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9"

... will agree with you. However, I've learned that they are NOT the same thing! It's more like this:

(1/2 70th Seven) (TRIBULATION) (1/2 70th Seven)

And, the "TRIBULATION" is actually a GAP that our Lord introduced to the timeline when He left the Jews of Jerusalem DESOLATE (as predicted in Daniel 9:27). This is what I mean when I say the two halves of the 70th Seven are like "bookends" to the TRIBULATION, not the TRIBULATION itself!

Furthermore, the first half of the 70th Seven was in the 1st Century A.D! The second half picks up AFTER the TRIBULATION is over! "Immediately AFTER the tribulation, ..." in Matthew 24 and Mark 13!

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

If Herod the Great was the man who came to his end in 11:45, then Michael was to stand up at that time, Israel was to be delivered, the time of trouble would have ended, and the resurrection of the good and bad would have happened. But they didn't, so Herod is not the man in 11:45. It is the man of sin Paul spoke of who comes to his end in 11:45. He is called the beast in Revelation. He will persecute the saints for 3.5 years and then comes to his end when he is destroyed at the Second Coming and cast alive into the lake of fire. 

Blessings to you- Gary

Let's re-word this:

"If Herod the Great was the man who came to his end in 11:45, then Michael was to stand up at that time-period, the time of trouble would have ended, Israel was to be delivered, and the resurrections (PLURAL) of the good and bad would have happened."

When Herod died, the children of Israel were introduced to their Messiah in that space of time, that "time-period." When the Messiah put the DESOLATION into effect, that's when Michael stood! He was called upon to PROTECT God's chosen people THROUGH the time of trouble! THAT'S HIS JOB! When the DESOLATION ended, THEN "Israel was to be delivered!" This was not known UNTIL Daniel had chapter 9 revealed to him!

And, when you say, "But they didn't, so Herod is not the man in 11:45. It is the man of sin Paul spoke of who comes to his end in 11:45. He is called the beast in Revelation. He will persecute the saints for 3.5 years and then comes to his end when he is destroyed at the Second Coming and cast alive into the lake of fire," this all comes from the RHETORIC of you choice of ESCHATOLOGY - the STANCE you take, not directly from Scripture! It actually mixes two (or three) passages of Scripture as though they are talking about the same thing (or same person)! If it weren't for the popularity of the Pretribulational Rapturism position, the equation above may not have taken hold in Eschatology! Now, pretrib, prewrath, and posttrib all speak the same language! They ALL tend to agree that ...

"The tribulation = the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9!"

Even though, they inherently know that it doesn't fit! It's more like an instinct from the feel one gets from faulty logic that causes them to bicker!

While the "man of sin" of 2 Thessalonians may be the "beast" of Revelation, he is NOT found in Daniel!

[Uriah]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, but the parenthetical passages are looking at ANOTHER DIMENSION of the events

It moves to another time, the end of the 1,000 yrs. in this case. It it is used to establish order.

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Up to this point, the ONLY sentence that is "parenthetical" would be the first sentence in verse 5!

No, there is more right there pertaining to the end of the 1,000 yrs.

It comes down to the throne. The one in Rev 20:11 matches what is seen in Matt. 25, and John 5, Dan 12 etc. This happens at the beginning of the 1,000 yrs.

 

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So 'in the period' that Herod the Great comes to his end Michael shall stand up, there will be a time of trouble, Israel gets delivered and the resurrection is finished. Herod died in 4 BC.

If Herod was the man who came to his end and the one who persecutes the saints for 3.5 years, then all these things should be finished. But they aren't.

Michael has not stood up..

The time of trouble has not come...

Israel is not delivered...

The resurrection of the good and the bad has not taken place.

Shalom, Gary.

Let's begin here: This is not difficult if you let the words just say what they mean. Herod is NOT the man who "persecutes the saints for 3.5 years!" There is NO SUCH REQUIREMENT! Again, this is from a FABRICATED ESCHATOLOGY POSITION, not from the Scriptures!

What happened in the first 3.5 years of the 70th Seven (Week) was Yeshua` came and announced Himself God's King (for that's what Messiah means), offering the Kingdom to the children of Israel, beginning with His OWN Tribe Yhudah ("Judah"), the Yhudiym ("Jews"). It was a legitimate offer, but it was refused and they rejected Him as their King.

He would have been announced by John the Baptist, but Herod Antipas had him killed because he called Herod out for taking his brother Philip's wife, Herodias, as his own. (Mark 6:17-18).

Daniel was already informed by the messenger Gavri'eel that ...

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and
to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
to anoint the most Holy. 
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And AFTER (not "at") threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 

(Finer details:)

27 And he (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (3.5 years) he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (of the scribes and Pharisees) he (Messiah) shall make it ("thy holy city") DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION (THE END), and that determined shall be poured upon the (ones left) desolate.

He was told this in response to his prayer of confession for his people after reading Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years captivity! (Daniel 9:1-2).

So, Michael, whose job is to protect the people of God, would stand up for his people as they were left DESOLATE, but the people would NOT be delivered until AFTER the DESOLATION is over, the CONSUMMATION - the END!

Now, read Daniel 11:45-12:3 again:

Daniel 11:45-12:3 (KJV)

45 And he (Herod the Great) shall plant the tabernacles (tents) of his palace between the seas (the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea) in the glorious holy mountain (Mount Zion); yet he shall come to his end (in 4 B.C.), and none shall help him.
1 And at that time-period (Hebrew: UwVaa`eet hayhiy = "And-in-that-time-period") shall Michael stand up (Hebrew: ya`amod miykhaa'eel = "Michael shall-take-his-stand"; 30 A.D.-66 A.D.), the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (Hebrew: haa`omeed `al-bneey `ammekhaa = "who-stands-watch over [the] sons of-your-people"): and there shall be a time of trouble (70 A.D to the present)., such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

23 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Finished means they are completed. All of these things must be finished by the end of the 3.5 year persecution of the saints. Herod is not the man in 11:45 nor is he the man in 12:7. These things are not finished. 

Blessings to you - Gary

 

These events do NOT happen AT THE SAME TIME! They are periods of time that happen sequentially!

As far as Daniel 12:7 is concerned; no, he is NOT Herod the Great. The Great GAP of nearly 2,000 years is not "magically" present in Daniel 11. The Great GAP was PUT THERE by the MESSIAH HIMSELF, Yeshua` Natsretiy ("Jesus of Nazareth"), when He left the Jews of Jerusalem DESOLATE in 30 A.D. until they can humble themselves to welcome Him back! But, according to Yesha`yahuw ("Isaiah"), they are a VERY STUBBORN PEOPLE! They have resisted God's Messiah for close to 2,000 years now, and they won't be healed until they are first COMPLETELY SHATTERED!

Verse 7 says, 

Daniel 12:7 (KJV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that 

"it shall be for a time, times, and an half (Hebrew: kiy lmow`eed mow`adiym vaacheetsiy = "that [it-shall-be] to-a-cycle-[of-holy-days] cycles and-a-half"); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (Hebrew: uwkhkhalowt nappeets yad `am qodesh = "and-when-has-been-completely shattered [the]-power of-[the]-people holy"), all these things shall be finished."

This is the SECOND half of the 70th Seven! Yeshua` shall be literally fighting for them, but He will start in Botsrah, Edowm, and then will rescue the towns of Yhudah first BEFORE He rescues the people of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! They will have been captured again before the Messiah splits Har HaZeitiym (the Mount of the Olives) all the way through the graveyard and the Golden Gate, making an escape route for them! While they will be leaving the city, He will be entering it to route the enemy out of HIS City through the Damascus Gate! He and His army will chase them across the mountains of Israel, until they think they can make a stand on the plain of Yiz'r`el (Jezreel) through the mountain pass at Har Megiddown (Greek: Armageddon, Revelation 12:12, today known as Tel Megiddo, 18.5 miles SE of Haifa).

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

It moves to another time, the end of the 1,000 yrs. in this case. It it is used to establish order.

No, there is more right there pertaining to the end of the 1,000 yrs.

It comes down to the throne. The one in Rev 20:11 matches what is seen in Matt. 25, and John 5, Dan 12 etc. This happens at the beginning of the 1,000 yrs.

 

Shalom, Uriah.

Okay, I'll bite, Could you explain how you see Revelation 20 in detail? Right now, it makes absolutely NO sense to me. I just can't see it, and I'd be interested in hearing how you see it. Thanks in advance.

[Uriah]

On 6/4/2022 at 2:56 AM, Retrobyter said:

Could you explain how you see Revelation 20 in detail?

Of course.

 It starts with the serpent being bound for 1K yrs. 

Also, v.4- And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them...it is not even designated that these are all martyrs who have have this position.

It continues, - and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

2Tim 11 & 12- It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 

Rev 7- After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...14- These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So, this has been called the first general resurrection.  Jesus says that ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come forth to life or damnation This is also seen in the last verse of Rev. 20- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is in Daniel as well, ch. 12- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And Matt 25- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Overall Rev 20 shows the beginning of the 1K yrs period, jumps 1K yrs. ahead in time, then returns to the Judgment at the beginning at the beginning again. 

Anything else will create terrible contradictions and ad hoc failures.  

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Uriah
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[transmogrified]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Herod is NOT the man who "persecutes the saints for 3.5 years!"

Herod is not the man in 11:45 or 12:7...But the man in 12:7 does shatter the power of the holy people for 3.5 years...the man in 12:7 is the little horn in Daniel 8:10 who stamps upon the saints: He is the little horn in 8:10 here:

Quote

And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

  He is the fourth beast in 7:19 here:

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Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

He is the son of perdition here in 2 Thess. 2:3 here:

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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

He is the beast who gets destroyed at the Second Coming in Rev. 19:20 here:

Quote

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

He is the one who makes war with the saints in Dan. 7:21 here:

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I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

And is the same beast who makes war with the saints in Rev. 13:7 here:

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I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

 

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Again, this is from a FABRICATED ESCHATOLOGY POSITION, not from the Scriptures!

The scriptures given above are not a fabricated eschatology position...

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

What happened in the first 3.5 years of the 70th Seven (Week) was Yeshua` came and announced Himself God's King (for that's what Messiah means), offering the Kingdom to the children of Israel, beginning with His OWN Tribe Yhudah ("Judah"), the Yhudiym ("Jews").

The first half of the 70th week was not the 3.5 year ministry of Jesus when he was on the earth. If that was the great tribulation then Jesus would have came some 2000 years ago for it says:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

1) The sun shall be darkened...

2) The moon turned to blood...

3) The sign of the Son of man in heaven appears...

4) All the tribes of the earth mourn..

5) They shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with great glory..

6) He sends his angels and gathers his elect...

All the above things are to happen 'immediately after the tribulation of those days...if the 3. 5 year ministry of Christ was the 3.5 year tribulation then all the above scriptures would have been fulfilled some 2000 years ago...but they weren't..The Son of man has not yet come...the saints have not yet been gathered...Jesus is not ruling on the earth with his saints...it is still future. 

The fulfillment of the above prophecies are yet future:

1) The sun and moon darkened and turned to blood...at the 6th seal...still future

2) The sign of the son of man...has not appeared yet

3) All the tribes of the earth have not mourned or been converted...

4) No one has seen the Son of man coming in the clouds...every eye sees him when he comes, even those who pierced him..there will be no gathering / resurrection rapture of the saints until the Second Coming...

Blessings to you - Gary

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Of course.

 It starts with the serpent being bound for 1K yrs. 

Shalom, Uriah.

LOL! Remember: You're talking to an old-school computer programmer! "1K" is actually a multiple of 2. It's binary-speak! 1K is actually 2^10 or 1,024. 😁

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Also, v.4- And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them...it is not even designated that these are all martyrs who have have this position.

It continues, - and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Okay, I can agree up to this point. But, obviously the "wicked are not going to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years."

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

2Tim 11 & 12- It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

It's important to understand that there are groups of people within the justified and the unjust groups. Within those justified by God, there are those who "suffer and reign with Him"; but, there are also those who deny Him, as Peter did at first in the courtyard outside the judgment hall, when our Lord was being framed.

Those who deny Him, will also be denied a rulership! That does NOT make that person outside of Christ or unjustified! It merely means that, since they weren't as faithful as others, as in the parable of the talents, they won't be judged worthy to be rulers over ten cities or five cities!

They haven't "lost their salvation", so to speak; they've just had their future curtailed because of not doing what they were ordered to do! There will be MANY such "Christians" at the time!

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

 Rev 7- After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...14- These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

One must understand that in this "great multitude," there are absolutely NONE who will be resurrected to damnation! They are ALL "clothed with white robes," and "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb!" They are standing before the Lamb JUSTIFIED BY GOD!

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

So, this has been called the first general resurrection.  Jesus says that ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come forth to life or damnation This is also seen in the last verse of Rev. 20- And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, Yeshua` said that "ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come forth to life or damnaion," but He didn't say WHEN each would happen! Tell me, if Yeshua` can specify only "Lazarus, come forth" (John 11:43), can't He also specify only those who "come forth to life?" He NEEDS those who "come forth to life" for His Kingdom; He has absolutely NO need for those who "come forth to damnation" at that time. Instead, He puts them off until the VERY END of the age! There are SEVERAL groups of people at His coming: Those who are alive and have been justified by God; they are transformed. Those who are dead and must be resurrected, transformed in the process. Those who are alive and unjustified, and those who are dead and unjustified. There's also the dimension of who are true children of Israel and will be able to prove it genetically as opposed to the Gentiles or non-children-of-Israel. Each of these two categories will have the same four subgroups. Each category/subgroup combination has a different future.

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

It is in Daniel as well, ch. 12- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Same thing. The messenger told Daniel that "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake," but He does NOT specify WHEN! He may not have said in "two different resurrections," but He also didn't say "in ONE resurrection!" Who is being resurrected is going to affect our Lord's attitude! It makes sense to put the happy thoughts and memories together at one point in time, and to put the saddened and angry thoughts and memories together at another point in time.

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

And Matt 25- When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is typically called the "sheep and goats judgment." However, there is a KEY word here: "nations." He's not just talking about individuals, but the nations to which those individuals belong! Why would that be a factor? Why would it be considered important to talk about in this judgment?

To understand the importance of that, I don't believe you've quoted enough of our Lord's account:

Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King (Yeshua` Himself) say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...'
...

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...'
...

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now, consider this: Here, He said that nations who didn't treat His brothers well "shall go away into everlasting punishment," but in most other such judgment/punishments, they are THROWN into the fire! (Revelation 20:15; Matthew 13:3o; 13:42; 13:50; 3:10, 12; Luke 3:9; etc.) In this particular passage, it simply says that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment." The Greek word translated as "shall go away" is apeleusontai and is in the future tense, indicative mood, and middle voice. Thus, they are acting upon themselves in the "going away!" They're not being "thrown" anywhere! (At least, not yet.)

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Overall Rev 20 shows the beginning of the 1K yrs period, jumps 1K yrs. ahead in time, then returns to the Judgment at the beginning at the beginning again. 

Anything else will create terrible contradictions and ad hoc failures.  

Really? Then the Great White Throne Judgment is at the BEGINNING of the 1,000 years? Then how are the nations gathered to battle after the 1,000 years? Where do they come from if the Judgment has alrady happened? How are THEY judged since the Great White Throne Judgment has alrady occurred?

Talk about "terrible contradictions!" The Judgment happens at the beginning of the 1,000 years, but haSatan is released AFTER the 1,000 years, THEN he goes out to deceive the nations, but, they've alrady been JUDGED and SENTENCED?! No, this twist is worse than ANYTHING that "strict linear reading" does to the text!

[transmogrified]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The first half of the 70th week was not the 3.5 year ministry of Jesus when he was on the earth. If that was the great tribulation then Jesus would have came some 2000 years ago for it says:

Hi Retrobyter- 

I am sorry I misunderstood what you were saying...I will correct this last post when I can get back...I can't do it right now...Blessings to you- Gary

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Okay, I can agree up to this point. But, obviously the "wicked are not going to live and reign with Christ for a thousand years."

Are you suggesting I said this?

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yeshua` said that "ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come forth to life or damnaion," but He didn't say WHEN each would happen!

WoW! So overriding the words of Jesus is fine with you because you resort to a logical fallacy?, an argument from silence! 

I recommend that you read the sentence and BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES! 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Uriah
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[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

Are you suggesting I said this?

Shalom, Uriah.

No, I'VE said, "Okay, I can agree up to this point. But, obviously the 'wicked are not going to live and REIGN with Christ for a thousand years.'!" To think otherwise would be ridiculous, don't you agree?!  What do you know about Yeshua` the Messiah of God? Since when would He INVITE His enemies to participate in His Kingdom, which is actually His FATHER'S Kingdom?! 

6 hours ago, Uriah said:

WoW! So overriding the words of Jesus is fine with you because you resort to a logical fallacy?, an argument from silence! 

I recommend that you read the sentence and BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES! 

Hmph! There's no logical fallacy here. The words of Yeshua are SIMPLY MISUNDERSTOOD because you're not LOOKING AT THE CONTEXT! Matthew 25:31-46 is not about whether one is "saved" or not! It's about whether one has treated His people well or not! He said it positively, and He said it negatively: "Inasmuch as you have done it (or not done it) unto one of the least of these my brothers, you've done it unto ME!" He takes it PERSONALLY!

Let's take a "for-instance": Suppose we have a nation like Iran who writes on each of its missiles "Death to Israel" and looks for the chance to use it against Israel and "drive her into the sea," it's obvious that this nation is not treating Yeshua`s brothers well. In fact, they have NEVER wished them well! So, when their representative or ambassador stands before Yeshua`, God's Messiah to be King, what do you suppose He's going to say to them? He willl take this hatred PERSONALLY!

He's going to tell them, "Get away from me! You have mistreated my people, and I take this VERY PERSONALLY! You can just depart into Everlasting Fire with the devil and his messengers, for all I care!" He's not sentencing them to the Lake of Fire, nor is He actually having them thrown into the Lake of Fire at that time! Their nation is just BLACK-LISTED as far as God's Messiah is concerned.