Israel in Prophesy (still future vs 1948)

[Keras]

Jeremiah 6:8-9 Be instructed, Jerusalem [Judah], or your God will depart from you and will devastate the Land.   Psalms 89:30-32, Matthew 21:43

The Lord says: Glean like a vine the remnant of Israel, one last time, like the vine dresser – pass your hand over the branches.  Isaiah 5:5-7

 

Jeremiah 6:10-15 To whom shall I speak and give warning? Who will hear me? Their ears are blocked, they are incapable of listening. They treat the Lord’s Word as a reproach, it has no appeal for them.     Ezekiel 14:2, Ezekiel 22:26-28

But I am full of the anger of the Lord, I cannot hold it back. Isaiah 63:1-6 I must pour it out onto all the people of the Land. Their houses will be given to others.          2 Esdras 1:35-37

For all the leaders and people only consider themselves, their prophets and Rabbis are all frauds, every one of them. They fail to address the real problems of their people. They say: “All is well”. All well? Nothing is right and just. They ought to be ashamed because of their sinful practices, yet they have no sense of shame, therefore they will fall with a great crash and be brought low on the Day of My reckoning.  Ezekiel 33:25-26

Jeremiah 6:16-20-30 The Lord says: you should enquire about the Way that leads to righteousness. But they said: “We refuse”. Then I appointed watchmen – listen for the call they told them. But they said: “We refuse”. Therefore hear you nations and take note of the plight of these people. I am about to bring ruin upon them, for all their sinful ways and ignoring My instructions. Your sacrifices are not acceptable and your offerings do not please Me. Zephaniah1:4-6 Matthew 24:41-42

Therefore the Lord says: I will set obstacles before this people, which will bring them to the ground, father, sons, friends and neighbors will all perish together. Jeremiah 12:14-17  A great host appears, like men arrayed for battle, against you: Zion.       Joel 2:1-11, Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 2:12-21

News of their coming has reached us and our hands hang limp, agony grips us, pangs as of a woman in labour. Do not go outside, for the foe will smite you there, as terror is spread around the world. Mourn and wail as the despoiler comes upon us in an instant.    These verses are the clearest description of how the Lord will act on His great Day of vengeance. Isaiah 63:1-6 A coronal mass ejection  flash will ‘come in an instant’, but ‘news of its coming will reach us’, by the STEREO satellite system. ‘Do not go outside’, is obvious – get into underground shelters and stay there until it passes, at least 24hrs. Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 30:26

It is appointed to assay My people, testing their conduct, but they are all rebels, mischief makers and corrupt to a man. The bellows blow, the fire is ready. All types of metal in vain the refiner refines, but the impurities cannot be removed.

Call them reject silver, for the Lord has rejected them.  Ref: REB.

Only a remnant of the people of the Jewish State of Israel will survive. Romans 9:27

All of this prophecy in Jeremiah is telling us about the coming fire judgement – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. This will affect all the world, but especially the Middle East and this prophesy applies specifically to Judah, the current inhabitants of the Land. Amos 2:4-5, Ezekiel 20:46-48, Ezekiel 21:1-17, Isaiah 6:11-14             

[dad2]

9 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Eze 22:17-22 KJV ¹⁷ And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, ¹⁸ Son of man, the HOUSE OF  ISRAEL is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver. ¹⁹ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the MIDST of JERUSALEM. ²⁰ As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. ²¹ Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. ²² As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

That was not the last day far as I can see. No mention at all of that time or when God restores them etc. Looking at one commentary it points out, in the next chapter, that this was history.

 

Two prostitute sisters (23:1-35)

God’s chosen nation was saved from Egypt and settled in Canaan, but it soon divided into two, the northern kingdom Israel (capital: Samaria) and the southern kingdom Judah (capital: Jerusalem). The prophet likens these two kingdoms to two sisters who became prostitutes (23:1-4).
The prostitution of Israel and Judah was their unfaithfulness to God in forming military alliances with foreign nations instead of trusting in him. Israel, the northern kingdom, was impressed with the might of Assyria, but in forming an alliance with the superior power she accepted also that country’s gods (5-8). Assyria, having used Israel for its own satisfaction, then savagely attacked and killed her (9-10).
Judah failed to learn from Israel’s experience. She too made alliances, first with Assyria and later with Babylon (Chaldea) (11-16). Then, with the feeling of disgust that often follows immorality, Judah turned away from Babylon. Soon she went lusting again, this time seeking the favours of Egypt, hoping for Egyptian aid to fight against Babylon (17-21).

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bbc/ezekiel-23.html#verse-1

 

That has nothing to do with God gathering Israel in 1948. You would need to take it out of context.

[dad2]

9 hours ago, OneLight said:

Because of His plans for them.  All of scripture shows how He works in the lives of people.  His ways are not our ways, so I don't compare what I think should be done to what He does.  I see God working in the lives of some of the most vile sinners I've ever come across and He did not wait until they repented.  That is not how God works in every situation.

I gave you chapter and verse.  You choose to see His words in a different light than I do.

Nothing to do with God restoring Israel to the land in 1948. God works in believers lives. Israel is not a believer. So when we see people saying things like how we need to support that secular nation because God wants us to, I have to question that.  So you gave no verse that said any such thing. When GOD brings them back we will know it there will be no possible mistake! Now I seem to recall where God does bring nations somewhere around that time. That would be to fight Israel! He wants them there so that He can wipe them out after Israel repents. He also allows a lot of trouble to come to the nation Israel. 

[TCC]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:00 PM, Josheb said:

That is incorrect. 

That is an example of your own lack of "sober mindedness," and lack of "self awareness." No one here is beholding to the RCC. That is a red herring. That red herring is an example of the lack of sober men and better understanding. Neither are all the books I recommended amillennial. Any eschatology that consistently leads to repeated false teachers and doctrines that radically defy and change core Christian doctrines does not evidence sober men with better understanding. It proves the exact opposite. 

 

And nothing I actually posted was addressed. 

That to demonstrates a lack of sobriety and understanding. 

No dogma, oppressive or otherwise, was posted. What was posted was commentary regarding a fairly simple and demonstrably objective observable fact: the inconsistency with which "literal" is abused by the other poster. If someone is going to claim to read prophesy literally and expect a literal fulfillment of a literal reading then they ought to do so with at least some modicum of consistency lest they subject themselves to well-justified criticisms of a lack of consistency. 

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the RCC, dark ages, amillennialism, or dogma.

The simple dilemma is that amillennialism was held for over a thousand years in the dark ages under Catholicism. To qualify that (where you could lose your life if you theologically differed) as what the church should have been believing is not sound exegesis. 

[TCC]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:17 PM, dad2 said:

They have been gathered but not by God yet. When He does gather them they will have repented. He will wipe out all enemies and etc.

Well they looked like they came out of a 2,000 year diaspora. And now are a world super power. To some effect it would appear (since no other nation on earth can claim this type of regathering after losing their nationality) that they have been gathered to some effect. 

[dad2]

15 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

There are several scriptures that I need to cover to explain things,  but it starts with the fact that Eze 22 has not been fulfilled,  contrary to what expository and commentators may say.   The main point being that God will gather the house of Israel to Jerusalem,  while their numbers are as the sand of the sea,  and reduce then to, what Scripture calls "the remnant".

From Isa 10 and Romans 11:

Isa 10:20-23 KJV ²⁰ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. ²¹ The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. ²² For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. ²³ For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

Rom 9:27-29 KJV ²⁷ Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: ²⁸ For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. ²⁹ And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

From Ezekiel 5, we see the details of how this comes about.   This multitude (as the sand of the sea) will be gathered to Jerusalem for judgment.   One third will perish in the city,  via famine and pestilence,  one third will perish "round about the city,  via the sword as they flee from there.   And one third will escape with their lives,  being scattered into all the 4 winds: 

Eze 5:12-13 KJV ¹² A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them. ¹³ Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

Just to put things into perspective,  the one third that survive is the remnant.   The few (that are tucked away in Ezekiel's garment) are the 144,000.  The one third that perishes round about by the sword,  is the one third that dies as a result of the 6th Trumpet.   The one third that dies of famine IN THE CITY,  is constituted by:

Rev 9:20-21 KJV ²⁰ And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: ²¹ Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The remnant are those that survive these judgments,  and they are scattered into all the winds.   From Isa 10 we see this: 

Isa 10:16-21 KJV ¹⁶ Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. ¹⁷ And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day; ¹⁸ And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth. ¹⁹ And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them. ²⁰ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. ²¹ The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

And this:

Isa 11:11-12 KJV ¹¹ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the SECOND time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. ¹² And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Which ultimately leads to this: 

Mat 24:31 KJV And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I could go on but let me finish with this in regards to the remnant: 

Isa 6:9-13 KJV ⁹ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. ¹⁰ Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. ¹¹ Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, ¹² And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. ¹³ But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Paul says that it will only be the remnant that God will gather the SECOND time back to the land.   The FIRST time was when the whole house of Israel,  the remnant, was brought forth out of the land of Egypt.   The ones being gathered to Israel now, that will culminate with a call to all of the house of Israel to return,  are not the remnant.   But they are being (ongoing) gathered there for judgment.   This is the time of great tribulation,  when God shall gather them to Jerusalem,  to his furnace of fire. 

Eze 22:21 KJV Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

Eze 38:14-19 KJV ¹⁴ Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? ¹⁵ And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: ¹⁶ And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. ¹⁷ Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? ¹⁸ And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. ¹⁹ For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Isa 11 is talking about the day when

 

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord , as the waters cover the sea. 

 

 

 

That was not 1948 and I see nothing in the verses you offer that is. If you claim there is then show the one verse so we can look at it.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by dad2

[TCC]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

Have I not already addressed your commentary on Catholicism? 

No actually not at all. I am not calling you catholic or saying you are bringing dogma. What I am saying is that you are basing Darbyism as new in comparison to the dark ages. That is what i am saying...but you don't want to address that. You want to pretend as if you had already addressed it. 

Prior to the Alexandrian school of allegorizing that took hold of the bible and  Christendom in the early centuries of the new millennia, the church fathers (past the 1st century--believed in Revelation futurism). Then the dark ages for 1,000 + years with inquisition and crusade and death threat to differ in theological was the rule of the day. To ignore that the dark ages threatened any other view with torture and death and pretend it was the way "the church believed and should have believed" historically, is to paint an inaccurate picture so as to provide you with an easy peazy argument that Darbyism was new. That was my point. I am address the point of your making Darbyism as new as sound historical understanding. You may mean well, but that argument is a pop culture argument is what i meant. Blessings. 

 

[dad2]

15 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

To which I don't disagree.  I think your original thought was that 1948 did not, and does not fulfill the nation being reborn in a day,  as per Isaiah 66.  And I fully agree with that as well.   That will not happen until the woman,  who is clearly Zion (ala Jerusalem) in Isa 66, gives birth to the manchild.   The woman is not Israel the geopolitical nation, who was gathered back in 1948.  But the woman is the children of Zion,  who love Zion,  the remnant.    To which Isa 11 is pointing to... the remnant being regathered the 2nd time.   This is after God brings upon them (in judgment) the Assyrian,  the rod of his anger.  But you asked this: 

"Why would we think that God brought back unregenerate unsaved rebels to the land? Chapter and verse?".

To which I answered why they are dwelling in the land today... for judgment.   Their placement in the land will lead to the invasion by Gog, when it is said of them peace and safety.   But they are being gathered there today,  by God himself (see Eze 22:19-...I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.).  Either you don't see this, or you aren't paying attention to my explanations.   What it is that will bring all of the "house of Israel" to Jerusalem,  will be the reinstating of temple worship, where the law requires all to gather there 3 times a year,   and ultimately the AoD will be fulfilled.   Scripture answers your question about why God will gather unregenerate Israel back to Jerusalem.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

He will try them by fire, yes. He knew they would be in that land, yes. The verse you gave was history. That does not mean it is God inspiring them to return themselves to Israel and form some secular state. 

[dad2]

54 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

If you think that Eze 22 has already been fulfilled,  e.g.-

Eze 22:20-22 KJV ²⁰ As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it;

so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. ²¹ Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. ²² As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.

perhaps you should read Eze 24:

Eze 24:1-14 KJV ¹ Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, ² Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day: the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem this same day. ³ And utter a parable unto the rebellious house, ...

... ¹³ In thy filthiness is lewdness: because I have purged thee, and thou wast not purged, thou shalt not be purged from thy filthiness any more, till I have caused my fury to rest upon thee. ¹⁴ I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

In case you missed what it says in verse 13, let me reiterate what God says. 

"Because I have purged thee [by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar,  on the 10th day of Tevet, when Nebu began his seige on Jerusalem] 

And thou wasn't purged [from thy sins] from thy filthiness,

Thou shalt NOT be purged from thy filthiness any more, till I have caused my fury to rest upon thee. 

[Did God change his mind?  Has the house of Israel been purged from her sins, turning from them?]

V.14, I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

This parable is not simply about a future pouring out of God's wrath and fury.   Read the text of the parable that I omitted.   The end result will be that the house of Israel turns and repents of her sins, never to return. 

Jer 30:7-9 KJV ⁷ Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. ⁸ For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: ⁹ But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

I would ask you to provide evidence for the fulfillment of Eze 22, but I think that i have provided enough evidence from scripture that there are none. 

I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 22:21 KJV Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

Not sure what point you think you have when the verses are history, except for Jer which is future. Just because God has dealt with Israel by judgment in the past does not mean that was the end time. Just because God proves and tries us in the fire sometimes, Christians or Jews in the past, that does not mean it was or is the Great Tribulation. Just because God did judge Israel one time by bringing them somewhere so that they would be dealt with in their sin, does not mean that is what He is doing now! It does not say God brings them back to be wiped out in the end, it just says they will be almost wiped out before they repent, and THEN God brings them back. This was not 1948. You cannot and did not provide a single verse that says otherwise.

[Keras]

15 hours ago, dad2 said:

He will try them by fire, yes. He knew they would be in that land, yes. The verse you gave was history. That does not mean it is God inspiring them to return themselves to Israel and form some secular state. 

But that is just what God will do:

Isaiah 62:1-2a For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent – until her victory shines forth, like the sunrise, her victory like a blazing torch. The nations will see your victory and their rulers your glory.

Isaiah prophesies for the sake of Zion; the holy Land. There will be a great victory, ‘like a blazing torch’ - a CME sunstrike over the attacking enemies. Isaiah 30:25-30 & 66:15-16, Psalms 11:4-6     The world will see it and be amazed.  Jeremiah 33:6-16

Isaiah 62:2b-5 You will receive a new name, the Lord Himself will give it. You will be like a glorious crown in His hand. No more are you forsaken and your Land desolate. You will be called ‘Hephzibah’ and the Land, ‘Beulah’. For the Lord will delight in you and it will be like a marriage: He will rejoice over you as a bridegroom over his bride.       ‘Hephzibah’ = My delight is in her.  ‘Beulah’ = married.   Isaiah 49:18

The Lord’s people, Christian Israelites will be gathered and settled into their heritage, all of the holy Land, in the new nation of Beulah. Wonderful promises to them of fertility and wealth. They will live in justice, peace and security, as He intended people to be.

 

Isaiah 62:6-7 Jerusalem, on your walls, I have posted watchmen, they will call out: You that invoke the Name of the Lord, do not rest and give no rest to the Lord until He makes Jerusalem a praise throughout the world.

The Hebrew word for ‘watchmen’, is ‘natzar’, the root word for Nazarene; literally all Christian believers. WE  must not rest or let the Lord forget His people and His Land. Keep praying for our redemption and restoration.  Ezekiel 36:24-28, Isaiah 52:7-9

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn to never again allow foreigners to take the produce of the Land, but you who give praises to Him will eat the grain and drink the wine, within My sacred courts.

After the great clearance in the Middle East, only His righteous people will be allowed to live there, those who love the Lord and obey Him. Isaiah 66:20-21, Ezekiel 20:38

Isaiah 62:10-11 Pass through the gates – clear a road for My people. Build a highway, remove the rocks and make a signal to guide the people. Proclaim to the ends of the earth, say to the offspring of Zion: See your deliverance comes, His reward is with Him and He will make recompense.

The great gathering of the Lord’s people – the second Exodus, will happen in the same manner as the first Exodus. Leaders [shepherds] will arise to guide the flock, in the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Jeremiah 3:14-15, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 43:5-7, Micah 4:6, Isaiah 49:9-13,  Isaiah 51:3, Zechariah 8:11-12, Isaiah 40:1-5, Ezekiel 11:17

Isaiah 62:12 They will be called ‘The Holy people, the Redeemed of God’ and Jerusalem will be called ‘sought after, the City no longer forsaken’.

The Lord’s faithful Christian people: living in the Holy Land of Beulah, as He created them to live, being a ‘light to the nations’ and witnesses to His salvation. They will send out 144,000 missionaries to every people group, to preach the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Acts 2:39, Jeremiah 31:23-34

Joel 2:23-27 People of Zion, rejoice – your God will recompense you for the years that others have ravaged your Land. You will again have plenty in your own Land. Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I and no other am your God. We will know the Lord is present by His deeds. Just as it was at the Exodus. Must be before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.