Defining Genesis 4:7

[Mike Mclees]

⁷ If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 

and unto thee (meaning Cain) shall be his desire and sin Is spoken of as a person at his door. God says then that thou shout rule over him  meaning he would rule over sin. 

I believe this verse is saying that if Cain had done well he would have rule over sin. Cain's sin was jealousy and so he killed his brother . God saying thou shalt rule over sin. It begs the question can we be determined in and of ourselves to master over sin?

9In this verse sin is referred to as a man or person

Can we master over sin?

Was Cain in a no win situation? Able's Sacrifice of the best lamb was still the only acceptable sacrifice even if Cain brought the best fruit of his field. Still jealousy is a grave sin for it is as hate, and Jesus said hate is as murder.  

Edited July 17, 2021 by Mike Mclees

[Tzephanyahu]

Hi @Mike Mclees

7 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Can we master over sin?

Yeshua did. He became a man and was tempted in every way that we are. 

I believe we can too, although it requires great discipline. But there are others in the Bible who done this.

Does that mean they were without sin? No. But it's very different to fall to sin in great weakness, ignorance or error rather than willfully. The latter can be mastered over. 

7 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Was Cain in a no win situation? Able's Sacrifice of the best lamb was still the only acceptable sacrifice even if Cain brought the best fruit of his field. 

The text doesn't really say that Cain brought the best fruit. In fact, it may imply the opposite... 

"So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground." Genesis 4:3

To me it seems like Cain gathered what had fell to the ground (or the leftovers) rather than the firstfruits. Whereas Abel.. 

"Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions." Genesis 4:4a

I might be wrong, but I think it was due to the QUALITY of the offering rather than the TYPE of offering which led to Yahweh making a division. For the quality reflects the heart. And so I think that if Abel brought a blemished lamb and Cain brought the firstfruits, maybe thr story woukd have gone differently. Again, I may be wrong but I hope that helps in some way!

Peace 

Edited July 17, 2021 by Tzephanyahu

[Mike Mclees]

3 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Hi @Mike Mclees

Yeshua did. He became a man and was tempted in every way that we are. 

I believe we can too, although it requires great discipline. But there are others in the Bible who done this.

Does that mean they were without sin? No. But it's very different to fall to sin in great weakness, ignorance or error rather than willfully. The latter can be mastered over. 

The text doesn't really say that Cain brought the best fruit. In fact, it may imply the opposite... 

"So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the Lord of the fruit of the ground." Genesis 4:3

To me it seems like Cain gathered what had fell to the ground (or the leftovers) rather than the firstfruits. Whereas Abel.. 

"Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions." Genesis 4:4a

I might be wrong, but I think it was due to the QUALITY of the offering rather than the TYPE of offering which led to Yahweh making a division. For the quality reflects the heart. And so I think that if Abel brought a blemished lamb and Cain brought the firstfruits, maybe thr story woukd have gone differently. Again, I may be wrong but I hope that helps in some way!

Peace 

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Read what I said carefully. It is understood that Cain  sacrificed with a ho hum attitude. but what if he had brought the very best of his field and his sacrifice with a right heart it would still have been short of Ables because Able's  perfect lamb was the symbol  of the Lamb of God. Cains sacrifice still going to fall short either way. Do you understand what I'm saying? It was a no win for him.

[Tzephanyahu]

1 minute ago, Mike Mclees said:

but what if he had brought the very best of his field and his sacrifice with a right heart it would still have been short of Ables because Able's  perfect lamb was the symbol  of the Lamb of God. Cains sacrifice still going to fall short either way.

Possibly but I think that's conjecture. 

[Mike Mclees]

3 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Possibly but I think that's conjecture. 

This was a straight question based on what scripture said. We might never know the answer. I was just noting it.  

[enoob57]

4 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

I believe we can too, although it requires great discipline. But there are others in the Bible who done this.

Not according to Scripture and my own personal experience:
 

1 John 1:6-10

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
KJV
 

[Mike Mclees]

Maybe this could be the answer. Cain's sacrifice is like man who believes he is basically good, and worthy but no matter how good we are we will not enter heaven. We only enter heaven by faith worshiping in spirit and truth and loving God and neighbor, and excepting Jesus sacrifice.  

For God so love the world he gave his only begotten Son that whom so ever believeth in Him shall not die but have everlasting life

[enoob57]

If I may interject this:
Since the fall and God cursing His creation due to said fall (SIN) there is nothing God is keeping of this first creation not even it's memory... that is why Jesus said

John 3:3 (KJV)

[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The witness of what God made is marred by sin yet the witness itself will be kept unto the created new heaven and new earth for all eternity...

[Mike Mclees]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

If I may interject this:
Since the fall and God cursing His creation due to said fall (SIN) there is nothing God is keeping of this first creation not even it's memory... that is why Jesus said

John 3:3 (KJV)

[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The witness of what God made is marred by sin yet the witness itself will be kept unto the created new heaven and new earth for all eternity...

 

The question or statement in Gen 4:7 is that God said to Cain if he did well he would have power over sin who was at is door. 

So the question is if we do good we would have power over sin? Also no matter what Cain did he was going to fall short of pleasing God because Ables sacrifice of the perfect lamb signified the Lamb of God that would save the world from sin.

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

The question or statement in Gen 4:7 is that God said to Cain if he did well he would have power over sin who was at is door. 

So the question is if we do good we would have power over sin? Also no matter what Cain did he was going to fall short of pleasing God because Ables sacrifice of the perfect lamb signified the Lamb of God that would save the world from sin.

 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.(D)

Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.(E) 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering(F) to the Lord.(G) 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions(H) from some of the firstborn of his flock.(I) The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering,(J) 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry?(K) Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door;(L) it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.(M)”

8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.”[d] While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

****In verse 2: Abel is the youngest of the two brothers.

Cain the eldest worked the soil and Abel kept flocks. 

****In verse 3: Cain made an offering.

What did he offered and how? 

In v.3, Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 

And Abel offered something deferent to the Lord.

When the Lord arrived he made it known to both of them that he was pleased only with offering of Abel. 

And the Lord let them know that he was not pleased with Cain's offering. 

That made Cain very angry and his face was downcast v.5

(Cain was the first born, that must have been a big celebration because Cain was the first baby of Adam and Eve and he must have been surrounded with special love and affection by his parents and the Lord, he felt he was the most important till that very moment that he experienced what rejection? 

Many negative feelings that he never experienced before, his feelings were hurt and he was broken hearted. 

And it seemed to him as his parents did not have anyone at that time that his problem was Abel and taking Abel out of the picture he will get back all the attention that an only heir deserves. 

That seems to be his motive, as Abel had not done anything to offend him in any way and cause Cain to hate him.

It was not just about Abel's offering to the Lord which was fat portions(H) from some of the firstborn of his flock. v.4 

It was the Lord doing to favor the Abel's offering of "fat potions from some of the first born of his flock and why? Did the Lord gave his reasons for his judgment? 

Certainly it was nothing Abel did to cause his brother to hate him.

It seems that the Lord had announced his visitation to them before hand as they both of them had time to prepare for their offerings and were waiting for his arrival.  We are not told what the Lord did with Abel's offering or what happened at the seen at that particular time.