Pale Percy Pessimist On America As Sodom.

[choir loft]

On 8/11/2022 at 4:29 PM, WilliamL said:

Righteousness by works. Anathema to the Gospel.

Here is the only source of righteousness for the disciples of Christ:

2 Cor. 5:21 For He [God] made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

Phil. 3:8 ...I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

 

You need to carefully consider the following:

 

Gal. 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.

It puzzles me greatly when those who claim to be followers of Christ misrepresent His words, His ministry, His life and the meaning of His death.

Jesus said, "I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

There is ABSOLUTELY no interpretation of the Master's words which can assume the LAW is somehow replaced by godless GRACE.  Indeed the first recorded words of satan in Genesis quote the temptor as saying God is a liar regarding His LAW and the consequences of breaking it.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

God will not excuse or allow SIN at any time or on any occasion.  SIN is defined by the LAW.  Therefore the LAW still stands.

No one can be saved apart from the LAW.

The LAW of Moses gives us the formula by which God has established the way in which a man can be JUSTIFIED.   Indeed it tells us the LAW doesn't justify anybody - any more than good deeds or pious appeals to baseless grace.  (That doesn't seem to stop church folks who believe that religious repetition of certain ceremonies will give them a ticket to enter the pearly gates of heaven.)

What righteousness comes from God?

You quoted Gal 2:21 out of context.   In verses 11-21 Paul confronts Cephas regarding the law.   Do you not know the argument is between TWO JEWS?  

Jewish tradition of the time held TWO LAWS juxtaposed against one another.  Jesus argued against the Law of Works as did the apostles, but Jesus lived, taught, died and walked out of His own tomb by the Law of Grace.  

Verse 17 says that if you seek to justify yourself in Christ BY THE LAW OF WORKS you will be found a sinner.  (Except that churches justify their members by ceremonial works ALL THE TIME. They make the same mistake as the Jews except that the church has established its own traditions and laws.) 

What's the difference between the Law of Works and the Law of Grace?

The LAW OF GRACE was given by God to Moses.

The Law of Works was created by the Jewish rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.

The Law of Works, partly adopted by the post-modern neo-gnostic Protestant church, now demands performance from its members.   Salvation by grace is only a buzz word the truth of which (based upon the LAW of Moses) isn't taught at all.

Simply put, one cannot DO anything to JUSTIFY themselves before the throne of God.

So why is it the church teaches a false notion of grace whereby one can SIN like satan and still be acceptable by God?   It's taught, but it isn't true.  Many a preacher has had problems with sex or liquor or donations and has destroyed years of ministerial work.  

Why is it the church teaches against the LAW of Moses, but when offering time comes they appeal to the LAW and demand 10% religious tax/tithe?   Tithing is not mentioned once in the NT, but it's demanded nonetheless.   Which is it?  Is the church apart from the LAW or is it not?  If it isn't, then you dear reader do not owe one single penny when the offering basket is passed around next Sunday.  This is nothing less than religious hypocrisy.

Why is it the church embraces the Gay Authority when the LAW strictly forbids it?  Is this grace or is it a desire for increased donation$?  It IS hypocrisy of the worst sort.

Shall I go on?  I can if you invite my response.  

Today the church is dead because it has denied that which was its root - the LAW of God, which tells us how to REPENT, how to be SAVED and how to live lives pleasing to God as GRACE enables living BY THE LAW.

1 Samuel 4:21 "the spirit has departed."

1 Peter 4:17 "it is time for judgment to begin in the house of God."

If God's word is to be believed the hypocrisy of the church will not endure - BY THE LAW.   Indeed judgment is already working upon it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by choir loft
spelling correction

[WilliamL]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:18 PM, choir loft said:

Jesus said, "I did NOT come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Matthew 5:17)

There is ABSOLUTELY no interpretation of the Master's words which can assume the LAW is somehow replaced by godless GRACE.

And Jesus did fulfill it, every whit. And then He finished it:

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It has been finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

This was the final sacrifice that fulfilled and completed the Mosaic sacrificial system of law. No more sacrifices for sin from that point on were acceptable before God: they were finished!

On 8/18/2022 at 1:18 PM, choir loft said:

So why is it the church teaches a false notion of grace whereby one can SIN like satan and still be acceptable by God?   It's taught, but it isn't true.  

"The church?" Sorry, but neither Christianity nor the New Testament teaches that "one can SIN like satan and still be acceptable by God." This is, generally speaking, a false accusation of "the church." (Despite the fact that many modern-day churches do not take sin seriously enough.)

[choir loft]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:53 PM, WilliamL said:

And Jesus did fulfill it, every whit. And then He finished it:

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It has been finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

This was the final sacrifice that fulfilled and completed the Mosaic sacrificial system of law. No more sacrifices for sin from that point on were acceptable before God: they were finished!

"The church?" Sorry, but neither Christianity nor the New Testament teaches that "one can SIN like satan and still be acceptable by God." This is, generally speaking, a false accusation of "the church." (Despite the fact that many modern-day churches do not take sin seriously enough.)

You don't seem to be fully cognizant of the LAW.  (Better than most, I must admit.).  But no cigar as they say.  

As a consequence your retort to my post contains some major misinterpretations of the LAW and considerable mistaken doctrines of the post-modern neo-gnostic American Protestant church.  The church today acts as though stupidity and SIN is a virtue.   It isn't.

Your statement is true in that Jesus' death on the cross fulfilled/satisfied the LAW of sacrifice.  Exactly why it was necessary eludes most of the faithful today including perhaps your post here.  It's elusive because they don't know the LAW that required it nor the spiritual reasons for it.  (More on that later if anyone is interested.)

Your statement is inaccurate in that the understanding of the church suggests that the LAW was destroyed the day God died.  Quite the opposite, the LAW is further established in perfection.   As Paul writes in Romans 2:12 "those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW."   Is Paul suggesting the LAW makes one perfect/saves?  Certainly not.  Paul is saying the LAW is a measure of SIN and the those who continue to live apart from its precepts are subject to death.  (Romans 6:23)

You don't fully appreciate the nature of God's death on the cross when you wrote, "no more sacrifices for sin ... were acceptable before God".   We may be picking at nits here, but the nature of Jesus' death made additional sacrifices, by the LAW, unnecessary.   It's not a matter of being acceptable, which it was, but of being unnecessary.  Why?

Hebrews 8:13 testifies that the LAW (regarding sacrifice) was "becoming obsolete". Firstly we should understand that Hebrews was written before the Roman destruction of the temple.  Hence, animal sacrifices were still being done - were 'becoming obsolete'.  

They were obsolete because animals are mortal.  Despite being physically perfect they were mortal.  Thus animal sacrifices had to be performed continually.   Jesus is IMMORTAL.   As a consequence God only had to personally fulfill/satisfy the LAW of sacrifice ONCE.  That single act was sufficient for all time because the life of Christ IS timeless/immortal.  This is further demonstrated by His ability to walk out of His own tomb a few days later.   Thus the LAW of sacrifice isn't destroyed.  Jesus' sacrifice IS acceptable unto God.  The LAW is thus made perfect and complete.   Additional sacrifices, animal or otherwise, are UNNECESSARY.

FINALLY I wish to move into modern church debauchery.  Unfortunately it IS being promoted from our pulpits that GRACE, which actually enables one to live a righteous life pleasing to God by the LAW, allows SIN.   Let me reiterate, the doctrine of Hyper-Grace as it's called JUSTIFIES SIN.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

I recently attended a Baptist sermon preached by Dean of a Bible college.  The subject was Grace.  At the end of his sermon the preacher told the congregation, "go out and SIN this week that GRACE may abound."   I have not heard nor read anything as abominable at that in a very long time.  The basis for the idea is that God will supposedly justify any wicked thing we put our hands to.   This is demonic doctrine from the pit of satan's kingdom and entirely non-Biblical.   You may believe my testimony or not as you wish, but it's just the tip of the iceberg in church these days.   I left that place and went to a mega-church where I witnessed two lesbians engaged in heavy petting during the worship service.  When I mentioned this to the pastor he said that it might be best if I went elsewhere to pray.

As I see it your interpretations of sacrifice by the LAW are mostly correct.  Unfortunately you seem to be unaware of the depth of debauchery our churches have welcomed.   Many years ago I attempted to enter the priesthood of the Episcopal church.  I was blocked from that effort by the Dean of the Committee of Ministry when he told me I had to reject Jesus Christ in order to be ordained.

It's just that bad, sir.   I wish it wasn't, but that's a fact of life these days.

I submit these words for your prayerful consideration.   God knows we need it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by choir loft

[WilliamL]

On 8/28/2022 at 8:57 AM, choir loft said:

Unfortunately you seem to be unaware of the depth of debauchery our churches have welcomed.   Many years ago I attempted to enter the priesthood of the Episcopal church.

You seem to think denominational churches represent the whole Church. Far from it. The True Church is the body of Christ, made up of believers who attempt to live according to His teachings. Including the teaching of grace.

When the Lord returns, "a great multitude, which no man could number" will be taken up to stand before the heavenly throne. Rev. 7:9ff. Since the number 200 million is mentioned later in Revelation, the number of those Christ takes with Him will clearly be an order of magnitude greater than that; of which a goodly part will come from the present generation. So the present-day Church is not as corrupt as you try to make out.

On 8/28/2022 at 8:57 AM, choir loft said:

As Paul writes in Romans 2:12 "those who do not live by the LAW will die by the LAW."

Paul wrote no such thing. So you based your argument on a falsity.

On 8/28/2022 at 8:57 AM, choir loft said:

You don't fully appreciate the nature of God's death on the cross when you wrote, "no more sacrifices for sin ... were acceptable before God".   We may be picking at nits here, but the nature of Jesus' death made additional sacrifices, by the LAW, unnecessary.   It's not a matter of being acceptable, which it was, but of being unnecessary.

No, it is a matter of being unacceptable. Because any further blood sacrifice for sin would indicate that one sacrificing such does not accept the final sacrifice as being sufficient. Which lack of acceptance is heresy.

[choir loft]

Last line first - you claim Paul never wrote what is recorded in Romans 2:12.   Here it is again, just in case you didn't read it the first time.  This level of reading is Middle School stuff.  Please pick up any Bible you can find and read what scripture says to us.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. (Romans 2:12 NIV)

You really need to read my post more carefully and really try to filter out presuppositions you may have encountered elsewhere.  They do not serve you well at all.  

No further sacrifice for SIN is required after God died on the cross.  This is a direct reference to animal sacrifice specificied in the LAW.  We'll find out why - after we establish why the LAW requires blood for SIN.

The LAW requires blood for SIN as in "the soul that SINs shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4b) and in Romans 6:23, "the wages of SIN is death." 

Why does the LAW require blood in payment for SIN?   "The life of the creature is in its blood..." (Leviticus 17:11a)  This is the LAW.  It applies in the 21st century as well as 4,000 years ago when God graciously delivered His LAW to Moses. (*)

Thus the spiritual principle that blood sacrifice is required for SIN is firmly established BOTH in the LAW (Torah) and in the Epistles (NT).  It hasn't changed as Paul testifies in Romans and as Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 5:17 "I did not come to abolish the LAW.  I came to fulfill it."  Thus the LAW still stands.

What does fulfill mean?

Fulfill also means satisfy as per the requirement of the LAW.  Jesus therefore SATISFIED the requirement of the LAW by giving His life's blood on the cross as required by LAW.

When the LAW of Moses went into effect God specified the use of animals' blood as a substitute for the life of those who had SINNED against God's LAW (which is NOT impossible to keep, btw).  However, the blood of animals, no matter how ceremonially clean they may be, is still temporary.  Animals are mortal, meaning they have fixed life span upon the earth.  This is why animal sacrifice had to be repeated over and over again.  

Jesus is immortal.  

Therefore the shedding of God's immortal life upon the cross is a permanent fulfillment of the requirement of the LAW.  Not only is Christ ritually clean, but His blood is a perfectly continuous substitute for ours.  Thus His sacrifice is effective one time for all time.  

This is also why Paul writes that those who SIN apart from the LAW will die by the LAW - BECAUSE the fulfillment of the LAW provides the sacrifice for our SIN.  

The LAW doesn't DO anything.  

It's rather like a roadmap to glory.  It tells us we are SINNERS who need to accept the sacrificial payment for SIN that God has provided upon the cross.  The LAW says WE are required to accept God's sacrificial death BY FAITH.  If we do not do so we shall DIE IN OUR SINS.

Church types are typically confused about law & grace simply because their leaders have chosen to refuse to preach lawful REPENTANCE which alone can lead to justification before God.  REPENTANCE is a tough subject and many preachers prefer to preach happy talk to fill seats.  Unfortunately happy talk is thin soup and doesn't satisfy, which is why so many are leaving the church today.

Finally your first point last of all.  You wrote, "you seem to think denominational churches represent the whole church."  I never wrote that point at all.  

Please go back and reread the points of my post.  

Because you seem to be uninformed about what is happening in the world, my point bears repetition in that the Great Apostacy is upon us.  It's upon us full force even as I write.  

Even non-denominational religious franchises (churches) are not immune.  They have their shortcomings as well as the big box churches.  Shall I continue with testimony of non-denominational pastors who have problems keeping their zippers shut or with their dabbling in church funds for their own aggrandizement?  It happens, sir.  It happens A LOT.

Make no mistake about it.  The result is that attendance is down significantly. Some estimates suggest 30% attendance has been lost due to COVID alone. Something is terribly wrong in Christendom. Ignoring it or calling the messenger a liar isn't going to make it go away.

Please consider my words carefully.  Avoid the typical knee-jerk response which does not serve you well.

If you have further questions regarding the LAW or the state of Christendom today please ask.  I'll be glad to illuminate.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) There are two LAWs being debated in the pages of the New Testament, by Jesus and by the apostles.  The first LAW is the LAW of Grace, also called Torah/Pentateuch, which was delivered by God to Moses.  It's authorship is GOD.

The second law is the Law of Works, also called Talmud, which began to be developed by the Jewish rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon.  It's authorship is a committee of men.

The first law tells us how to be saved by grace through faith in God's promise/LAW to forgive our SINS.  

The second law tells us we don't need God's help at all.  It says we can save ourselves by means of traditions; such as church membership, tithing and participation in religious duties.  The second law, opposed by Jesus and the apostles, requires no faith at all.  

A typical Traditionalist Jew can claim to be an atheist and still be in good standing in his synagogue.  Likewise a typical Traditionalist Christian can claim to be an agnostic and still be in good standing in his church.

Edited September 15, 2022 by choir loft