Was There More to Christ's Sufferings?

[halifaxchristian]

Rukkus: If this verse does not speak to you...I am afraid you have blinders on from the enemy...

"Christ...being PUT TO DEATH in the FLESH (body), but QUICKENED by the Spirit."-1 Peter 3:18

The Bible makes ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE to Jesus dying in Spirit. You have attempted over and over to make void our points using your opinionated, shallow replies...no offense intended...but that is what they are.

I have yet to see you show any verses that prove that Christ died anything more than physically. You say that the Bible doesn't even say "spiritual death"...it does not...but surely you agree that this principal is clearly laid out in the Word. You have even said this earlier on in this conversation here.

How can you use such a hypocritical approach to this debate? First, you start by saying that we are wrong...because "spiritual death" isn't even mentioned in the Bible. And then you proceed to believe that Jesus died spiritually.

Make up your mind...either the premise is true or not. This word game should not continue...and I agree that we must use Scripture to base our theology.

Me and gypc...have shown you clearly that Jesus died physically...the BLOOD of Jesus cleanses of all sin...He bore our sins in His own BODY...He was put to death in the FLESH....He would raise again the TEMPLE of His body...eat and drink His flesh and blood which was SHED FOR US...all these things are physical.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus died in Spirit...please show me. Don't attack us if you can't even provide Scriptures yourself...and be not deceived...you have NOT.

And Jesus' perfect sacrifice was finished on the cross...I don't know if you are a Seventh-Day Adventist or not...but I don't know how you can say that redemption was not finished on the tree. It clearly was.

Were there other things to be done after the sacrifice that were a part of God's council? Certainly. God never sleeps. But to say that all that was needed for salvation was not done and over when Christ commited His Spirit to the Father...is plain blasphemy.

Sorry for the harsh words at times...but this is no light issue...and that I am sure you can agree with.

God bless you in seeking.

[Guest shiloh357]

Notice, that this verse shows us that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, one of which, we see from this verse, is sin. So think about it, the very thing Jesus was sent to destroy, He became. Jesus became the work of the devil because God had made Him sin. Can you believe that? Sin is a work of the devil. God made Jesus Sin.

Jesus became everything that God had pronounced an abomination. Every evil thought you or I would ever have. Every treason we would ever commit. Everything that brought about God

[halifaxchristian]

Notice, that this verse shows us that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, one of which, we see from this verse, is sin. So think about it, the very thing Jesus was sent to destroy, He became. Jesus became the work of the devil because God had made Him sin. Can you believe that? Sin is a work of the devil. God made Jesus Sin.

Jesus became everything that God had pronounced an abomination. Every evil thought you or I would ever have. Every treason we would ever commit. Everything that brought about God

[Rukkus]

did I ever claim Jesus' Spirit died?

I've already proven from scripture that depending on the definition of "dying spiritually" that Christ did indeed die spiritually.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is your point? I didn't say "depending on the definition, I've proven Christ died in spirit" no . . . I said "depending on the definition, Christ died spiritually" See, here it appears that you define "dying spiritually" as your spirit dying . . . Something I've not seen in all the Bible. So according to your definition of "dying spiritually" (that is, if you're claiming dying spiritually means your spirit dying) I would have to say . . . .No, I don't have any specific scripture that says this is what happened to Jesus . . . .or anyone else for that matter.

Edited September 3, 2005 by Rukkus

[Rukkus]

Rukkus: If this verse does not speak to you...I am afraid you have blinders on from the enemy...

"Christ...being PUT TO DEATH in the FLESH (body), but QUICKENED by the Spirit."-1 Peter 3:18

Oh, it speaks to me. That's a good verse.

The Bible makes ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE to Jesus dying in Spirit.

I agree. If you find one, let me know . . . Or, if you find a verse that makes reference to ANYONE dying in spirit, let me know.

You have attempted over and over to make void our points using your opinionated, shallow replies...no offense intended...but that is what they are.

Well, I'm just looking for scripture that contradicts something I've said . . . And specifics, so I know what you're referring to.

I have yet to see you show any verses that prove that Christ died anything more than physically.

I would agree with that . . . the subject of "dying spiritually" is a concept that just isn't clearly defined in scripture . . . So it depends on how you define it, as to whether I can show you scripture for it. As I said to Gypc . . . If you define it as Jesus' Spirit dying . . . Well . . . I don't think I could show you scripture on that. But then again, I don't think there is scripture for anyone's spirit dying. Do you have scripture that says someone's spirit died in the Bible? If you do, I'd like to see it. I don't think the Bible talks about such a thing as a Spirit dying. I know Jesus' Spirit didn't die, cause it was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:30, Acts 2:31). It went to the place of the dead . . . But I don't know of scripture that says it died.

You say that the Bible doesn't even say "spiritual death"...it does not...but surely you agree that this principal is clearly laid out in the Word. You have even said this earlier on in this conversation here.

Well, I agree, depending on how you define it. So let's lay this dog to rest . . . Right now, define for me what spiritual death is . . . . In your opinion . . . And we can use this definition for the remainder of the conversation, that way I'm not un certain of what you're talking about.

How can you use such a hypocritical approach to this debate? First, you start by saying that we are wrong...because "spiritual death" isn't even mentioned in the Bible. And then you proceed to believe that Jesus died spiritually.

I never said Jesus died spiritually. Cut and paste it . . . Let's take a look.

Make up your mind...either the premise is true or not. This word game should not continue...and I agree that we must use Scripture to base our theology.

Me too

Me and gypc...have shown you clearly that Jesus died physically...the BLOOD of Jesus cleanses of all sin...He bore our sins in His own BODY...He was put to death in the FLESH....He would raise again the TEMPLE of His body...eat and drink His flesh and blood which was SHED FOR US...all these things are physical.

I would agree with this.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus died in Spirit...please show me. Don't attack us if you can't even provide Scriptures yourself...and be not deceived...you have NOT.

I don't know what you mean when you say "died in Spirit" so . . . I'd have to say there is no scripture that says this.

And Jesus' perfect sacrifice was finished on the cross...I don't know if you are a Seventh-Day Adventist or not...but I don't know how you can say that redemption was not finished on the tree. It clearly was.

Redemption was finished on the cross? Well, then why does Paul say that wihthout a resurrection, faith is vain (1Cor 15)? If redemption was finished while Jesus was on the cross, why does the Bible say in Hebrews 9 that Christ had to enter the heavenly holy of holies with His own blood to obtain this redemption (Heb 9)? Your comments don't seem to be biblically accurate. Without a resurrection, and Jesus entering the Holy of Holies with His own blood, the Bible says faith is vain, and there is no eternal redemption (Heb 9:12, 1Cor 15:14) . . . .So I've proved you wrong in your statement that redemption was finished on the cross.

Were there other things to be done after the sacrifice that were a part of God's council? Certainly. God never sleeps. But to say that all that was needed for salvation was not done and over when Christ commited His Spirit to the Father...is plain blasphemy.

Brother . . . You need to read your Bible. Our faith amounts to nothing without a resurrection. You have nothing without a risen Saviour. There was no justification without a Resurrection (Rom 4:25). And there is no way to be saved without a resurrection, because in order to be saved, you have to believe Jesus rose from the dead (Rom 10-9-10). This is also shown in Romans 5:10 we were reconciled by the death, but we are saved, by the life of the Son of God.

You're going to need to start backing up what you say with scripture

Edited September 3, 2005 by Rukkus

[Rukkus]

Jesus was not made sin in the absolute sense. Our sin was imputed to Christ. He did not become sinful on the cross.

Lets look at one of the chief verses you use to support this nonsense.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

(2 Corinthians 5:21)

The phrase "made to be sin" is hamartian epoiēsen in Greek and the words "to be" do not appear in the original text. The way it should more properly be understood from the Greek text is, "He was treated as sin, who knew no sin." To claim that Christ actually became sin is not supported by any properly exegeted biblical passage, but relies a tragic mishandling of the word of God.

Properly understood, our sin was imputed (credited) to Christ, just as His righteousness is imputed to us. I am sorry that you have chosen to believe a doctrine of the devil and have given into radical heresy instead of just believing the Bible. You are tragically deceived.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited September 3, 2005 by Rukkus

[Rukkus]

Now we come to the end of the cross, and the beginning of the 3 days and 3 nights that Christ was dead. I want you to notice the words of Jesus just before His death . . .

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the Ghost

(Lk 23:46)

One time I was reading a commentary on this verse by a minister and he said something to the effect of,

[halifaxchristian]

Rukkus...first of all...if you are saying that Jesus was not forsaken by the Father in Spirit...I am all for it. If you are saying that Jesus went to hell to preach to the lost souls and take back the keys of heaven and whatnot...I am all for it. That is what the Bible says. I agree that Christ did not ascend immediately to the Father and that He had a job to do in the world of the dead. No question about it. But did Jesus forsake His unity with the Father in doing so? Absolutely not. Did Jesus get tortured in hell as some people say (not saying you do)? Absolutely not.

I do believe that we agree on many points...but on one issue we greatly diverge. And you believe that Jesus became sin literally in His Spirit. I don't see Scriptural support for that and I don't understand how you can accuse me of not having done so??? That verse I quoted from Peter clearly says that Jesus was put to death in flesh and kept alive in Spirit. It does not get any more simple than that.

And spiritual death...is not soul extinction. I don't know what you think I believe spiritual death is, but just for the sake of clarity:

SPIRITUAL DEATH IS SEPARATION OF SPIRIT FROM GOD.

This is clearly a Biblical prinicpal...and to say that all humans are not spiritually dead before being born again...and to say that fallen angels are not spiritually dead...is ludacris.

Are you saying that Jesus partook of the SAME SPIRITUAL DEATH that fallen humans and angels have??? Yes or no, and elaborate if you want.

God bless.

[Rukkus]

Rukkus...first of all...if you are saying that Jesus was not forsaken by the Father in Spirit...I am all for it.

But He was . . . Jesus is Spirit (2Cor 3:17), and Jesus was forsaken (Matt 27:46)

So if you're going by that definition for spiritual death, then yes, Jesus died spiritually . . . He was forsaken by God.

If you are saying that Jesus went to hell to preach to the lost souls and take back the keys of heaven and whatnot...I am all for it.

I know Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (1Pt 3:18-19), however, the Bible does not say this happened during the 3 days and 3 nights in the earth

I agree that Christ did not ascend immediately to the Father and that He had a job to do in the world of the dead. No question about it. But did Jesus forsake His unity with the Father in doing so?

Jesus was forsaken by the Father. The Bible says so.

Did Jesus get tortured in hell as some people say (not saying you do)? Absolutely not.

Hmmm . . . I don't know of scripture that specifically says that . . .

I do believe that we agree on many points...but on one issue we greatly diverge. And you believe that Jesus became sin literally in His Spirit. I don't see Scriptural support for that and I don't understand how you can accuse me of not having done so???

The Bible says Jesus was made sin (2Cor 5:21) and part of who Jesus is, is Spirit (2Cor 3:17)

That verse I quoted from Peter clearly says that Jesus was put to death in flesh and kept alive in Spirit. It does not get any more simple than that.

I agree.

And spiritual death...is not soul extinction. I don't know what you think I believe spiritual death is, but just for the sake of clarity:

SPIRITUAL DEATH IS SEPARATION OF SPIRIT FROM GOD.

Alright, thank you for finally nailing that for me.

This is clearly a Biblical prinicpal...and to say that all humans are not spiritually dead before being born again...and to say that fallen angels are not spiritually dead...is ludacris.

I would agree.

Are you saying that Jesus partook of the SAME SPIRITUAL DEATH that fallen humans and angels have??? Yes or no, and elaborate if you want.

According to your definition of 'spiritual death' Jesus died spiritually. He was forsaken by God.

[halifaxchristian]

Rukkus...you are devising a WHOLE DOCTRINE that Jesus was SPIRITUALLY DEAD because of TWO SINGLE VERSES. That is very dangerous.

The first verse you use is the one that says Jesus was forsaken by the Father. He was...but NOT SPIRITUALLY. He was forsaken UNTO DEATH ON THE CROSS for our sins. Even Jesus said that His disciples would forsake Him but that the Father would not. You are reading your own interpretation onto that text I have shown you. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever...and He cannot change. A spiritual separation from the Father would make that void. Jesus is God and cannot die. God is Spirit. Jesus is ETERNAL and separation from the Father would make this void. Jesus was the SPOTLESS LAMB and if He was sin in SPIRIT He would not have been SPOTLESS. The list goes on and on.

The second verse you use is the one that says Jesus became sin. He did...in HIS BODY...by becoming a human being in the flesh. He bore our sins in His own BODY on the tree. Jesus became sin alright...no question about it...in BODY...but certainly NOT IN SPIRIT.

Period.