Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week

[not an echo]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:05 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 8/9/2021 at 2:27 PM, not an echo said:

Hello all,

As everything I have ever put forth on the Worthy Christian Forums, I put this forth for everyone's consideration.  Realize, that on my end, it is far less important whether I am right or wrong on anything or everything and far more important that we are all ready---come what may.

Concerning tribulation, great tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (commonly referred to as the Seven Year Tribulation Period), consider:

The night before Jesus was crucified, He said to His first disciples, as recorded in John 16,

 33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace.  In the world ye shall have TRIBULATION (thlipsis/G2347), but be of good cheer;  I have overcome the world.

The first time we find the word "tribulation" in the New Testament, Jesus speaks it in a parable, as recorded in Matthew 13:

 21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while:  for when TRIBULATION (thlipsis/G2347) or persecution ariseth because of the Word, by and by he is offended.

Years after Christ's ascension, Paul wrote unto "the church of the Thessalonians" this, as recorded in I Thessalonians 3:

  4   For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer TRIBULATION (thlipsis/G2347);  even as it came to pass, and ye know.

The same word "tribulation" (thlipsis/G2347) is used similarly over 15 other times in the New Testament.  Moreover, the Greek word thlipsis (G2347) is also translated "affliction" over 10 times and in other ways (see Strong's Concordance).

Continuing, the week Jesus was crucified, He told the disciples the following concerning Daniel's 70th Week, as recorded in Matthew 24:

 21  For then shall be GREAT (megas/G3173) TRIBULATION (thlipsis/G2347), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In Acts 7, Stephen recounts before the Sanhedrin the history of Israel and says the following concerning the famine that came in the days Joseph was promoted in Egypt and his family came to him for corn.  The account reads,

 11  Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and GREAT (megas/G3173) AFFLICTION (thlipsis/G2347):  and our fathers found on sustenance.

In The Revelation, Jesus tells John to write the following in a warning to the church in Thyatira, in reference to "that woman Jezebel" (2:20).  He is told to write,

 22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into GREAT (megas/G3173) TRIBULATION (thlipsis/G2347), except they repent of their deeds.

It is helpful to realize that the word "great" (megas/G3173) is used very often in the New Testament.  The first time is found in Matthew 2:

 10  When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding GREAT (megas/G3173) joy.

Later, we read the following in Matthew 8,

 24  And, behold, there arose a GREAT (megas/G3173) tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves:  but He was asleep.

Interestingly, notice what happened when Jesus rebuked the tempest, as recorded a couple of verses later:

 26  And He saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?  Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea;  and there was a GREAT (megas/G3173) calm.

I would just like to pause to say that however great may be one's fear, Christ can bring as great a calm into his or her life!

The word "great" (megas/G3173) is used well over 100 times in the New Testament.

Now, concerning the time of the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, we have all heard a lot about how there is going to be great tribulation then---and there certainly will be.  We looked at what Jesus said concerning this time above, but let's look at it again, paying close attention to what I have now emphasized.  Again, from Matthew 24 we read,

 21  For then shall be great (megas/G3173) tribulation (thlipsis/G2347), SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.

According to Jesus, there never has been, and there never will be again, tribulation as great as there will be during that time.  Sobering to think about, huh?  I think that our present generation has not thought about this nearly enough.

Of course, much more can be said about tribulation, great tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week.  We know that in this life, we are going to have tribulation, and sometimes it is going to be great.  In my humble opinion, because of the event of the rapture, none who are saved at the time of this event will experience the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week.  It is those who are not saved at the time of the rapture who will experience that.  Also, important to understand is that the event of the rapture can happen at any time---even this very day.  For those reading these words who have never been saved, it would not be a wise thing to turn Christ's offer of salvation away in hopes of the possibility of being saved during the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  As we find written in I Corinthians 6, "behold, now is the accepted time;  behold now is the day of salvation" (vs. 2).  No one has any assurance whatsoever that they will survive what will befall that day long enough to even be in the number of those who reject the mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16-18;  14:9-13;  15:1-4).

For those who may be interested, these thoughts also relate to A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Following is the link to my master thread by that name, which also gives links to all the other threads that I have started so far, which pertain to this subject.  Some of these threads have now gotten quite long.  My encouragement would be to at least read my opening post(s) of each thread.  Further, I am not finished responding in any of my threads.  But, I am often limited on time.

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/)

The word "great " is used as a comparative word,  pertaining to other instances of the noun subject.   All of the examples including Matt 24, are using it that way.   But you are treating matt 24 as if Jesus [only]  said,  "there shall be great tribulation... at that time".  But he gave an extra quantifier... such as never had been,  to that time, nor ever shall be.   He said to that time nor ever shall be. All of us has probably had experiences where we said,  "that is the greatest [???] I have ever seen", only to be superceded by something even greater.   At such times,  we knew not that there would be an even greater experience yet to come.   As,  I pointed out to you previously,  when Jesus said,  "no man knows that day,  not the Son,  not the angels", he didn't use the ginosko,  but he used the eido,  which means to experience with the senses,  namely it is often translated as meaning "to see", most notably with the eyes.   Most everything that one experiences with one of the senses ALSO sees it with their eyes.   This is why it is often translated as meaning to see.   One can ONLY know with understanding,  ginosko,  tribulation,  even great tribulation, the historical tribulations of the last two thousand years.   That is why "that day that no man knows", including the Son,  is a time sensitive knowing,  specific to "that generation".  It's about knowing,  experientially,  and not about knowing with an understanding of the mind.

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

P.S....

The command by Jesus TO WATCH [because you know(eido) not the day or hour when the Son of man comes]  is inextricably tied to the events of the Olivet discourse.   He isn't saying that no man "will understand WHEN the Son of man will come".  But he is saying that in the time WHEN the Son of man comes,  no one knows experientially,  what those days will entail.   It's not the specific day that he is saying we won't understand,  but you have not (no one)  experienced what those days will entail.   You must be watching for those events in order to adequately prepare yourself to face those days.  Pre-tribbers far and wide (and many Christians) cowl down to escapism from those days.   It's not just pre-trib that has ceded to defeat,  but many others are content just to remain faithful,  and we all should be, and fail to grasp the victory to those who overcome those days.   I don't know about you,  but I want to stand (alive and remaining)  at the coming of our Lord Jesus,  even so COME (for me) Lord Jesus. 

Hello Da Puppers,

I'm not really understanding what you mean when you say to me, "But you are treating matt 24 as if Jesus [only]  said,  "there shall be great tribulation... at that time".  But he gave an extra quantifier... such as never had been,  to that time, nor ever shall be."  The "extra quantifier" that you mention, I do too.  Here is the exact cut & paste from my above post that you replied to, where I point out the same thing you do:

====================

"Now, concerning the time of the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, we have all heard a lot about how there is going to be great tribulation then---and there certainly will be.  We looked at what Jesus said concerning this time above, but let's look at it again, paying close attention to what I have now emphasized.  Again, from Matthew 24 we read,

 21  For then shall be great (megas/G3173) tribulation (thlipsis/G2347), SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.

According to Jesus, there never has been, and there never will be again, tribulation as great as there will be during that time.  Sobering to think about, huh?  I think that our present generation has not thought about this nearly enough."

====================

As far as it relates to my understanding, I can't really say that I know where you are coming from with most of the rest of your post.

However, concerning your last sentence, I'm reminded of what John said in I John 2 (with explanatory note added):

 28  And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming (for us).

Similar to you, I want to be always watchful and ready for that time!  But, I believe it could happen even today, with the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" at the time of His opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17 with Matt. 24:29-31).

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:15 PM, Selah7 said:

Respectfully, not an echo, since I do not hold to a pre-trib rapture, is there anything I can contribute to this thread?  ….probably not?  I enjoyed reading your post, however, so “thanks!” 

selah . . .

Thanks Selah.  Of course, the main thing is that we are always ready, come what may (Matt. 24:36-47).

[not an echo]

23 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 8/9/2021 at 2:27 PM, not an echo said:

Continuing, the week Jesus was crucified, He told the disciples the following concerning Daniel's 70th Week, as recorded in Matthew 24:

 21  For then shall be GREAT (megas/G3173) TRIBULATION (thlipsis/G2347), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Note that He said nothing here about Daniel's 70th week. Never mentioned it, ever, in His ministry.

So this is all pure presumption on your part. And multitudes of others.

The following two blog posts examine the evidence:

44. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 6: Do Verses 26b-27 Prophesy Future Events?

Lists the seven specific prophecies found in Daniel 9:26b-27, and tests whether the belief that they will be fulfilled in the future can be substantiated by other biblical End Time prophecies.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1605-daniel-924-27-examined-part-6-do-verses-26b-27-prophesy-future-events/

45. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 7: Were Verses 26b-27 Fulfilled Historically?

Tests the view that the seven prophesied events were fulfilled during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. Also, explains the reason for the time-gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1611-daniel-924-27-examined-part-7-were-verses-26b-27-fulfilled-historically/

Hello William,

Jesus references the time of which He is speaking (Matt. 24:21) to the book of Daniel (Matt. 24:15).  The prophecy of Daniel's 70 Weeks is the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve.  Moreover, Gabriel references the "Seventy weeks" (Dan. 9:24) prophecy to "the vision" (also 9:24, with vs. 23), which Daniel had had at the time when Gabriel appeared to him "at the beginning" (9:21 with 8:16).  At that time, Gabriel had said to Daniel, "Understand, O son of man:  for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be the vision" (8:17).

[WilliamL]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:55 PM, not an echo said:

Jesus references the time of which He is speaking (Matt. 24:21) to the book of Daniel (Matt. 24:15).  The prophecy of Daniel's 70 Weeks is the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve.  Moreover, Gabriel references the "Seventy weeks" (Dan. 9:24) prophecy to "the vision" (also 9:24, with vs. 23), which Daniel had had at the time when Gabriel appeared to him "at the beginning" (9:21 with 8:16).  At that time, Gabriel had said to Daniel, "Understand, O son of man:  for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be the vision" (8:17).

A number of misconceptions here.

1) Again, Jesus said nothing about Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. When he quoted the phrase "abomination of desolation," that comes from Daniel 12:11, NOT Daniel 9, where it is not found at all in the Hebrew text. Your presumption that Daniel 9 and Daniel 12 are closely related is merely your own presumption, and has no scriptural validity.

2) Daniel 8:17 in the Hebrew does NOT say, "at the time of the end;" but rather, "for a time of an end." Big difference. There have been many times of ends throughout history.

From my blog article on this subject, found in full here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

“a time of an end”

 

Daniel 8:17 …כִּי/because לְעֶת־/for a time of קֵץ/ an end [is] הֶחָזֹֽון/the vision/revelation.

“…because the vision is for a time of an end.”

– not “the time of the end,” as this is generally mistranslated. (There is no ה/“the” before קץ.) That interpretation has imposed within it the presumption that there is only one time when there will be an end. But other prophetic, already-fulfilled times, ends, and time-of-end passages can be seen in Ezekiel 7:2-12 and 21:25, 29 (the latter verses generally mistranslated).

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Again, the Hebrew does not say, as this is generally mistranslated, “at the appointed time (shall be) the end.” Like with verse 17, nothing of this event relates to our day either. To give a similar example, Daniel 11:29 prophesies “at the appointed time he [Antiochus] shall return and go toward the south,” but that “appointed time” prophecy was fulfilled in 168 B.C.

Daniel 8:23 וּֽבְאַחֲרִית/And in the latter (part/time) מַלְכוּתָם/of malkutham/their kingdom, כְּהָתֵם/while bringing to fullness [Hiphil Infin. with prefixכ: “while, when”] הַפֹּשְׁעִים/the transgressing/rebelling ones [Qal Active Participle, plural], מֶלֶךְ/a king יַעֲמֹד/shall arise…

“And in the latter part of their kingdom, while the rebelling ones/transgressors are bringing to fullness their apostasy, a king shall arise…”

These three verses, 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

 

[not an echo]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 8/13/2021 at 1:55 PM, not an echo said:

Jesus references the time of which He is speaking (Matt. 24:21) to the book of Daniel (Matt. 24:15).  The prophecy of Daniel's 70 Weeks is the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve.  Moreover, Gabriel references the "Seventy weeks" (Dan. 9:24) prophecy to "the vision" (also 9:24, with vs. 23), which Daniel had had at the time when Gabriel appeared to him "at the beginning" (9:21 with 8:16).  At that time, Gabriel had said to Daniel, "Understand, O son of man:  for AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be the vision" (8:17).

A number of misconceptions here.

1) Again, Jesus said nothing about Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. When he quoted the phrase "abomination of desolation," that comes from Daniel 12:11, NOT Daniel 9, where it is not found at all in the Hebrew text. Your presumption that Daniel 9 and Daniel 12 are closely related is merely your own presumption, and has no scriptural validity.

2) Daniel 8:17 in the Hebrew does NOT say, "at the time of the end;" but rather, "for a time of an end." Big difference. There have been many times of ends throughout history.

From my blog article on this subject, found in full here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

“a time of an end”

 

Daniel 8:17 …כִּי/because לְעֶת־/for a time of קֵץ/ an end [is] הֶחָזֹֽון/the vision/revelation.

“…because the vision is for a time of an end.”

– not “the time of the end,” as this is generally mistranslated. (There is no ה/“the” before קץ.) That interpretation has imposed within it the presumption that there is only one time when there will be an end. But other prophetic, already-fulfilled times, ends, and time-of-end passages can be seen in Ezekiel 7:2-12 and 21:25, 29 (the latter verses generally mistranslated).

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Again, the Hebrew does not say, as this is generally mistranslated, “at the appointed time (shall be) the end.” Like with verse 17, nothing of this event relates to our day either. To give a similar example, Daniel 11:29 prophesies “at the appointed time he [Antiochus] shall return and go toward the south,” but that “appointed time” prophecy was fulfilled in 168 B.C.

Daniel 8:23 וּֽבְאַחֲרִית/And in the latter (part/time) מַלְכוּתָם/of malkutham/their kingdom, כְּהָתֵם/while bringing to fullness [Hiphil Infin. with prefixכ: “while, when”] הַפֹּשְׁעִים/the transgressing/rebelling ones [Qal Active Participle, plural], מֶלֶךְ/a king יַעֲמֹד/shall arise…

“And in the latter part of their kingdom, while the rebelling ones/transgressors are bringing to fullness their apostasy, a king shall arise…”

These three verses, 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

Hello William,

I looked into what you said a little bit.  When I checked the Worthy Bible study help (shown as BIBLE on the menu above), I found this concerning Daniel 9:27 (from the KJV keyed to Strong's):

Daniel 9:27 King James Version with Strong's Concordance (STRONG)

²⁷ And he shall confirm ^H1396 the covenant ^H1285 with many ^H7227 for one ^H259 week: ^H7620 and in the midst ^H2677 of the week ^H7620 he shall cause the sacrifice ^H2077 and the oblation ^H4503 to cease, ^H7673 and for the overspreading ^H3671 of abominations ^H8251 he shall make it desolate, ^H8074 even until the consummation, ^H3617 and that determined ^H2782 shall be poured ^H5413 upon the desolate. ^H8074

 

Then, I found this concerning Daniel 12:11 (from same source):

Daniel 12:11 King James Version with Strong's Concordance (STRONG)

¹¹ And from the time ^H6256 that the daily ^H8548 sacrifice shall be taken away, ^H5493 and the abomination ^H8251 that maketh desolate ^H8074 set up, ^H5414 there shall be a thousand ^H505 two hundred ^H3967 and ninety ^H8673 days. ^H3117

 

Note that I highlighted and color coded the phrases in which we find the words related to the "abomination of desolation" that you brought up.  Interestingly, if you look closely, you'll see that in both verses, the phrases are shown to be translated from the same Hebrew words.  The Hebrew word from which the first phrase in both verses is translated is this:

Strong's Concordance H8251

Original Word: שִׁקּוּץ

Transliteration: shiqqûwts

Phonetic Spelling: shik-koots'

or שִׁקֻּץ; from H8262; disgusting, i.e. filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol; abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).

 

The Hebrew word from which the second phrase in both verses is translated is this:

Strong's Concordance H8074

Original Word: שָׁמֵם

Transliteration: shâmêm

Phonetic Spelling: shaw-mame'

a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense); make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate(-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

 

Concerning Daniel 8:17, I found these translations from the Worthy Bible study help (I listed them all, just so you would know that I didn't skip any).  Note that I highlighted the portion you brought to my attention:

Daniel 8:17 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:17 American Standard (ASV)

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was affrighted, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man; for the vision belongeth to the time of the end.

Daniel 8:17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

¹⁷ And he cometh in near my station, and at his coming in I have been afraid, and I fall on my face, and he saith unto me: Understand, son of man, for at the time of the end `is' the vision.

Daniel 8:17 Darby English Bible (DARBY)

¹⁷ And he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was afraid, and fell on my face; and he said unto me, Understand, son of man; for the vision is for the time of the end.

Daniel 8:17 World English Bible (WEB)

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was frightened, and fell on my face: but he said to me, Understand, son of man; for the vision belongs to the time of the end.

Daniel 8:17 Bible in Basic English (BBE)

¹⁷ So he came and took his place near where I was; and when he came, I was full of fear and went down on my face: but he said to me, Let it be clear to you, O son of man; for the vision has to do with the time of the end.

 

What I found William is that what you say concerning Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 and what I found is somewhat different.  Also, concerning Daniel 8:17, it seems that what you found is somewhat different than what all the translators involved in the above translations found.  It concerned me that you said of my post, "A number of misconceptions here" and of me, "Your presumption that Daniel 9 and Daniel 12 are closely related is merely your own presumption, and has no scriptural validity."  I'm not sure why you would say that about me.  There have certainly been times when I have done something without realizing it.  The Lord being my Helper, I'll never give up trying to do better.

[Diaste]

On 8/17/2021 at 12:17 PM, WilliamL said:

A number of misconceptions here.

1) Again, Jesus said nothing about Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. When he quoted the phrase "abomination of desolation," that comes from Daniel 12:11, NOT Daniel 9, where it is not found at all in the Hebrew text. Your presumption that Daniel 9 and Daniel 12 are closely related is merely your own presumption, and has no scriptural validity.

2) Daniel 8:17 in the Hebrew does NOT say, "at the time of the end;" but rather, "for a time of an end." Big difference. There have been many times of ends throughout history.

From my blog article on this subject, found in full here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

“a time of an end”

 

Daniel 8:17 …כִּי/because לְעֶת־/for a time of קֵץ/ an end [is] הֶחָזֹֽון/the vision/revelation.

“…because the vision is for a time of an end.”

– not “the time of the end,” as this is generally mistranslated. (There is no ה/“the” before קץ.) That interpretation has imposed within it the presumption that there is only one time when there will be an end. But other prophetic, already-fulfilled times, ends, and time-of-end passages can be seen in Ezekiel 7:2-12 and 21:25, 29 (the latter verses generally mistranslated).

Daniel 8:19 …אֲשֶׁר־/what יִהְיֶה/shall happen בְּאַחֲרִית/in the latter (part/time) of הַזָּעַם/the fury/rage, כִּי/because [it is] לְמֹועֵד/for an appointed time קֵֽץ/of an end.

“…what shall happen in the latter part of the fury, because it is for an appointed time of an end.”

Again, the Hebrew does not say, as this is generally mistranslated, “at the appointed time (shall be) the end.” Like with verse 17, nothing of this event relates to our day either. To give a similar example, Daniel 11:29 prophesies “at the appointed time he [Antiochus] shall return and go toward the south,” but that “appointed time” prophecy was fulfilled in 168 B.C.

Daniel 8:23 וּֽבְאַחֲרִית/And in the latter (part/time) מַלְכוּתָם/of malkutham/their kingdom, כְּהָתֵם/while bringing to fullness [Hiphil Infin. with prefixכ: “while, when”] הַפֹּשְׁעִים/the transgressing/rebelling ones [Qal Active Participle, plural], מֶלֶךְ/a king יַעֲמֹד/shall arise…

“And in the latter part of their kingdom, while the rebelling ones/transgressors are bringing to fullness their apostasy, a king shall arise…”

These three verses, 8:17, 19, 23, are where translators and commentators often go astray, imposing words and understanding not expressed in the Hebrew. In these and similar Hebrew prophetic texts, a common default presumption of translators has been that every “time of an end,” “Day of the LORD,” and “latter day/time” must refer to the end of OUR age. This is not true at all: there have been many “ends” of kingdoms and eras prophesied that have already come to pass. For example:

Jeremiah 46:2 Against Egypt. Concerning the army of Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt, which was by the River Euphrates in Carchemish, which Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon smote in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah. … 10 For this is the Day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…

This historically-famous “Day of the LORD” battle took place in 610 B.C. Other fulfilled Day of the LORD prophecies include Joel 1:15 (but not Joel 2-3), and Ezekiel 7:19 and 13:5. The final “end”/Day of the LORD/last of the last days does not come until the end of the 7th Millennium, “when He [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father…[having] put an end to all rule and all authority and power.” 1 Cor. 15:24

Daniel 8:23 defines the very era of the 2300-day abasement of Jerusalemʼs Temple: “in the latter part/time of their [the Greek] kingdom.” By 168 B.C., only the significantly-diminished Seleucid and Ptolemaic kingdoms remained out of Alexanderʼs once vast empire. Therefore, the “fierce king” and ha-poshim/“the rebelling ones” of verse 23 can only be Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish apostates, respectively. All of the verses from 8:23-28 prophesy about the qualities and acts of Antiochus: they do not prophesy about OUR times.

 

To be fair Jeremiah 46 is not quite the same as the other prophesied day of the Lord. I mean the details of both are quite different, aren't they? Not the least of which is Nebuchadnezzar is coming to smite Egypt and the Day of the Lord where the Lord himself appears and fights personally. 

 

[Diaste]

On 8/9/2021 at 1:27 PM, not an echo said:

In my humble opinion, because of the event of the rapture, none who are saved at the time of this event will experience the tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week. 

It is those who are not saved at the time of the rapture who will experience that. 

Also, important to understand is that the event of the rapture can happen at any time---even this very day. 

Why do they not experience Daniel's 70th week?

Because it's wrath?

As Paul said, "We are not appointed to wrath..." So the 70th week equals wrath? Yes? No?

That's the pretrib position on why there is a pretrib rapture; the 70th week is God's wrath.

That being the case, the 70th week is then the wrath of God and born again believers are saved from that wrath in God's mercy and love for His people, why is there a great group in heaven that did go through the 70th week?

If the 70th week is God's wrath and no believer experiences God's wrath then there should be no group in heaven that went through any portion of the 70th week. Yet there is:

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. " Rev 7:9

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;" Rev 7:14

How do you explain these experiencing the wrath of the 70th week yet all other believers alive today are saved from the 70th week, which week is all the wrath of God?

So either the scriptures are wrong, or the definitions are wrong, or the timing is wrong, or any form of pretrib is wrong.

I have always thought the idea the rapture could occur at any moment is a type of date setting. It's at least an imposition on the scriptures in that no evidence exists of a sudden, any moment secret gathering which must occur before a specific event. 

That's a bit abstract I know but there it is.

And why is it important to understand? That looks like a "If you think about it like this..." demand on the audience to suspend logic and engage in supposition sans any evidence. We can presuppose things like the character and nature of God within the scope of interpretation but that idea you present sounds like a defensive statement to me e.g., "Let me make this very clear..." et al., right before the lie begins. 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

To be fair Jeremiah 46 is not quite the same as the other prophesied day of the Lord. I mean the details of both are quite different, aren't they? Not the least of which is Nebuchadnezzar is coming to smite Egypt and the Day of the Lord where the Lord himself appears and fights personally. 

 

The words "the other prophesied day of the Lord" shows a presumption that there were only two; which presumption is false.

For example, Joel 1 also uses the very same term for the time of a great locust plague that struck Israel in ancient times; then in chapters 2-3 goes on to prophesy about an even worse End Time Day of the Lord.

[WilliamL]

On 8/17/2021 at 11:18 PM, not an echo said:

What I found William is that what you say concerning Daniel 9:27 and 12:11 and what I found is somewhat different.  Also, concerning Daniel 8:17, it seems that what you found is somewhat different than what all the translators involved in the above translations found. 

Citing Strong's numbers and definitions for words does not really explain the meaning of the same word in the context of a specific verse. For example, the same verb could have be used in more than a half dozen different stems (e.g., Qal, Niphal, Hiphil, etc.) and even more tenses (prefect, imperfect, passive participle, present participle, etc. etc.). So unless one understands Hebrew grammar, one cannot really judge the true meaning of a word in the context.

Fortunately for you, I have explained the terms you cited in my extensive blog post on Daniel 9:27:

…וְעַל/And upon/over כְּנַף/a wing/corner/border, שִׁקּוּצִים/abominable things/idols of מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer [Polel verb stem (like Piel: intensive) Active Participle ms]…

“… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…”

Comment: All kinds of presumptions have been imposed by different translators upon this phrase. For example, עַל means “upon, over,” never “for” or “by.” (Compare what your Bible says.)

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

שִׁקּוּצִים is plural, not singular. Although many people presume that this phraseשִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם/shiqqutzim məshomame is equivalent to the similar-sounding phrase שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם/shiqqutz shomame of Daniel 12:11, they are significantly different. Only the latter phrase fulfills the prophecy by Jesus about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Matt. 24:15 Both shiqqutz and shomame are singular and lack the prefixה, so shomame can act as an attributive participle, thus as a modifier of shiqqutz: “a desolating abomination” = “an abomination of desolation.”

In contrast, 9:27ʼs shiqqutzim is plural, while məshomame is singular, so cannot be its modifier: it has to be a noun, “destroyer.” (Attributive participles must agree in number – both being singular or plural; in gender – both being masculine or feminine; and in definiteness – both having or not having the definite articleה. See Part 4 for the three kinds of participles.)

The NIVʼs “an abomination that causes desolation” utterly corrupts the meaning of the Hebrew text. The NIV rejects the Hebrew, following the Greek Septuagint, which grossly varies from the Hebrew text of the Book of Daniel. Contrary to the understanding of many people, the original Septuagint scholars did not translate anything beyond the Torah, the five books of Moses. Translations of the other Old Testament books were added later by unknown translators at unknown times. Those translations significantly varied in quality.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

Regarding Daniel 8:17, what I wrote earlier fully explains why the presumptions made by the purveyors of the traditional reading are incorrect. If you can provide any testimony from them for their presumption to put in their "the"s in their translations "the time of the end," I would be happy read it and respond.

 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The words "the other prophesied day of the Lord" shows a presumption that there were only two; which presumption is false.

For example, Joel 1 also uses the very same term for the time of a great locust plague that struck Israel in ancient times; then in chapters 2-3 goes on to prophesy about an even worse End Time Day of the Lord.

I just meant to say the one in question, a future from this moment Day of the Lord, is the other one. Not that weren't others but that there is a contrast between what you suggest and what is popularly known as the Day of the Lord, yet to come.

It seems pretty obvious a Day of the Lord is coming and is not the same as one in the ancient past.

"not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come." - 2 Thess 2

I don't think we have seen a day of the Lord since this was written.

“Behold, the Lord is coming with myriads of His holy ones to execute judgment on everyone,

and to convict all the ungodly of every ungodly act of wickedness and every harsh word spoken against Him by ungodly sinners.” " - Jude

Clearly Jude thought Enoch prophesied about certain contemporaries of Jude and and the 1st century church, and the above prophesy has not come to pass yet.

"But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare" - 2 Peter 3

Peter also seems to think it's a day that is yet to come to pass. It's also obvious to me from 2 Thess 2, Jude, and 2 Peter 3 this coming day has attributes unlike another other Day of the Lord. This Day of the Lord is not a past day of the Lord, it's future day from the 1st century. 

If Jude thinks Enoch prophesied of a future day from the time of Jude then it's likely Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Joel also prophesied of that day. 

Paul speaks to the coming of the Lord as yet future so often in his letters that he leaves little doubt we have not seen the great Day of the Lord in the ensuing two millennia.