Last Day Resurrection? How does that work?

[DeighAnn]

24 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

But when heaven remains the heaven we know," ASSUMES A HUGE AMOUNT of theological influence that was greatly affected by the neo-Helenism of Plato and Aristotle that was drawn into the theology one was taught in the 100s to 300s A.D!

Not sure how many times I need to say this but I KNOW NOTHING of all that stuff.  As soon as I have the TIME I will get to 'mans profane history'.  Till then I work on GODS WORDS, not what all the other men throughout history have written.   If I needed to know that stuff then surely God would not have sent the HOLY SPIRIT to lead and guide me.  Please try to understand that there is an entire group of 'Christians' that all come off the same way and it gets really tiring. Wouldn't be so bad if God didn't say it wasn't the way to go but, He did.  

 

31 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

"Heaven" DOESN'T mean "the heaven we know!" (UNLESS, you're thinking of phrases like "the birds of the heavens.") The truth is this: It's just as moronic to think of "Heaven" as being a place beyond the "heaven of clouds" and the "heaven of stars" as it is to think that Uranus is where the New Jerusalem will be one day because the name "Uranus" comes from the Greek word "ouranos," which means "sky" and is often translated as "heaven!" There's no more a "heaven as God's abode" than there is a "heaven" on Uranus!

 how sad,  I will pray 

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
 

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.



Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 

Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Colossians 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Colossians 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
 

1Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

1Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


 

49 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

"Spirit" in this context means "ATTITUDE!" It's one thing to use the words blindly or as means by which one may exercise power over another human being; it's entirely a DIFFERENT thing to believe the words that God has given us in His Scriptures. Words mean NOTHING without definitions and grammar usage!

So you must be aware of the history of the scribes right?  How is it you never mention or figure any of that into it?  The synagogue of Satan holds no truth? or what they did and why doesn't?  and  as I said before the definitions do become valuable when seeking deeper truths but DEFINITIONS AND GRAMMAR are not how we arrive at GODS TRUTH.  It is in THE SIMPLICITY NOT COMPLEXITY OF THE WORDS.  

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Of course God made the accounts easy to understand; however, that doesn't give anyone the right to remain STUPID! God expects one to GROW!

WHAT?

[DeighAnn]

2 bodies - what DOES GOD TELL US ABOUT THEM?  

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

with WHAT BODY

PLEASE NOTICE "NO WHEN" as in a specific 'day'  IS BEING SPOKEN OF

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

ONE BODY DIES TO MAKE ALIVE WHAT WILL COME FROM IT

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

GOD TO HELP US UNDERSTAND IS NOW 'SHOWING US' BY THE EXAMPLE OF PLANTING SEEDS IN THE GROUND.  WHAT HAPPENS TO A SEED THAT IS PLANTED.  IT HAS THE LITTLE EMBRO/DNA OF THE PLANT AND THE SEED IS ALSO PROVIDING THE FOOD THE NEW LITTLE PLANT NEEDS TO GET STARTED.    AS THE PLANT GROWS, THE SEED COMPLETELY DISINTEGRATES, NOTHING OF THE SEED IS LEFT.  THE PLANT WILL NEVER AGAIN NEED ANY PART OF IT.  IT HAS DONE ITS JOB AND NOW IS NOTHING FOREVER MORE.  


1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF FLESH

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF FLESH IN DIFFERENT PLACES AND THEY HAVE DIFFERENT KINDS OF GLORY

VESSELS OF GOLD AND OF HONOR ALL DOWN THROUGH VESSELS OF WOOD AND DISHONOR.  YOU THINK 'WORKS' AREN'T IMPORTANT?  THE ONLY THING WE TAKE WITH US?  BETTER THINK AGAIN AND DON'T LET ONE OF THOSE OSASED TRY TO CONVINCE YOU THAT THEY ARE BAD IN ANY WAY.  
 

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

THIS IS WHAT GOD TELLS US SO WE BEST LISTEN TO HIM

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

ANYONE NOTICE ANY 'DAY' BEING APPOINTED TO THIS RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD?


1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1  Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

EARTHY BODY GOES INTO THE DIRT AND CELESTIAL/SPIRITUAL IS RAISED FROM IT.  

THERE ARE TWO BODIES. 
NATURAL/EARTHY/TERESTRIAL AND
SPIRITUAL/HEAVENLY/CELESTIAL

NO BIG MYSTERY.  JUST LIKE 'THE SPIRIT' IT IS WRITTEN IN.  SIMPLE EASY TO UNDERSTAND, EVEN THE YOUNGEST OF CHILDREN CAN UNDERSTAND.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

ADAM CAUSED DEATH,  CHRIST CAUSED LIFE 

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural and afterward that which is spiritual.

WE ARE BORN INTO THE FLESH TO BE GIVEN THE FREEDOM TO MAKE A CHOICE.  CHOOSE LIFE OR DEATH.  

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

AGAIN, THE TWO BODIES AND NOT A WORD ABOUT 'A WHEN'.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

MUST CHOOSE

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


AT THE VERY END, THAT 'LAST DAY' (THE ONE WE HEAR SO MANY REFERING TO AS 'THE ONE TIME'  RESURRECTION AND SO NO ONE IS IN HEAVEN UNTIL THEN' OPENING UP AND GIVING GROUND TO THE PRE TRIB RAP THEORY)

WHEN ALL THOSE ALIVE IN THEIR FLESH BODIES MUST BE BROUGHT UP TO WHERE ALL THOSE WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE THEM ARE AND THAT IS OUT FROM THEIR EARTHY BODIES AND INTO THEIR CELESTIAL BODIES BECAUSE AS WE WERE JUST TOLD 'FLESH AND BLOOD' CAN NOT MIX WITH THE SPIRITUAL.  

What ELSE are we told about that day?  We know that Satan will be standing where he ought not and Jesus will return and destroy......

So we will have 2 groups of people on earth at that moment.  Those with the mark of the beast (unfaithful and foolish, once virgins now idolaters, who didn't make sure they had enough oil to get through that darkest of days and so had to go buy and sell because they listened to the false prophets and antichrists instead of reading what was written themselves or finding a teacher to teach them to read what was written themselves)and those without (faithful virgins with enough oil to have endured to the end not having to go out to buy and sell)  WHO MUST DIE

AND all those who will be changed at THE SAME TIME NOT HAVING TAKEN THE MARK OF THE BEAST.  THEY ARE THE FIRST RESURRECTION  we read of it here
 

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


GET THIS STRAIGHT.  THE CELESTIAL KINGDOM IS COMING TO THE EARTH AND FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT 'INHERIT' IT,  NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE. 

MARK OF THE BEAST OR NO MARK

NO FLESH AND BLOOD ALLOWED.  THE 'INVISIBLE'/SPIRITUAL/CELESTIAL KINGDOM OF GOD IS COMING TO EARTH AND IT WILL BE ACCEPTED AND ALL WILL BE CHANGED.  THE NEW DAY IS UPON US.  IT IS UP TO YOU TO FIGURE OUT HOW THAT CHANGE COMES UPON WHOM.  

WE KNOW THAT NO ONE WHO 'FOLLOWED' AFTER SATAN IS GOING TO REMAIN ALIVE.  THEIR FLESH BODY IS GOING TO DIE FOR SURE.  AND THEY WILL BE, AT BEST, THE WALKING DEAD FOR THE NEXT 1000 YEARS. WHAT HAPPENS TO THE NOT 'AT BEST'?   NYG


Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the REST were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

 

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

FOR IF THE DEAD RISE NOT THEN CHRIST IS NOT RAISED. 

 CHRIST COULD NOT RISE   until the dead could rise

HE WAS THE FIRST OF THEM,  not the ONLY of them
(FIRSTFRUITS IS HARVEST OF A CROP.  DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT GOD would only raise  ONE at that time but raise BILLIONS AT ANOTHER? 

WHY WOULD GOD KEEP THOSE HE LOVES AND CREATED FOR HIS PLEASURE WHO DIED WITHOUT SIN (Thank you Lord Jesus Christ) (HENCE NO DEATH) IN THE GROUND?  


WHERE DOES IT SAY ANYONE HAS TO WAIT FOR 'the First General Resurrection when our Lord returns'?  

IN ADAM ALL DIE.  IN CHRIST ALL ARE MADE ALIVE.  But every man in his own order. 

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.


Also, IF THAT WERE TRUE, THEN WHO IS THE BRETHREN ANGEL JOHN IS SPEAKING WITH IN REVELATION?


More issues

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

HOW ARE THEY CRYING IF THEY HAVE NO MOUTH, NO VOCAL CORDS, NO BODY?
ARE THEY DWELLING IN HEAVEN OR NOT?  ARE THEY TALKING OR NOT?  IS THIS TAKING PLACE OR NOT?  IF IT IS TAKING PLACE THEN WHEN?

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

AGAIN, WHY DO THEY NEED TO HAVE ROBES OF ANY SORT?  DO THEY HAVE BODIES OR NOT?  WHO ARE THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS?  BRETHREN?  WERE THEY KILLED OR NOT?  

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

WHAT PART OF 'THE SKIES' ROLL AWAY? IF NONE OF THEM THEN WHAT IS BEING SAID?

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


(I was going to go rewrite this in all little letters but I would rather just say I am not yelling just have lots of questions and think if I tried to rewrite it i would add a bunch of stuff I don't want to bring up yet).  

IT'S TRUE, I CAN'T FOLLOW ANYTHING YOU SAY.  WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOVE WOULD ALL BE LIES AS 'THERE IS ONLY A SKY' BUT NO 'HEAVEN WHERE GOD DWELLS', NO ALTAR,  NO SOULS, NO ONE CRYING, NO ONE BEING GIVEN ROBES, NO STARS FALLING TO THE EARTH, NO HEAVEN DEPARTING

BUT here is what I hear you saying

GOD is  EVERYWHERE AND THE DEAD BODIES of EVERYONE GOD HAS EVER CREATED are DECAYING AND ASLEEP IN THE EARTH and will be EXCEPT FOR THE ONE LAST GENERATION who will be alive and  CHRIST RETURNS all the dead are  WOKEN UP AT THE SAME TIME AND 'RECONSTITUTED' FROM THE SAME DIRT THEY HAD WHEN PUT INTO THE GROUND.  BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF SOULS FROM ALL PARTS OF TIME,  RISING, MANY WITHOUT A CLUE AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON,  COMING TO LIFE AGAIN IN AN IMPERISHABLE, IMMORTAL BODY?  I can't even tell you how lost I am trying to follow 'the words' only.  

and when THE ARMIES OF ANGELS COME TO THE EARTH AND HELP 'RESURRECT' and gather,  ALL THESE DEAD CARCASSES (what about the parts of them that were eaten by wild animals and turned into dung?)   What about those who were vaporized?) 

 THEN GODS WRATH FALLS AND kills all the 'marked by the beast' and THE RESURRECTED ONES WHO RECEIVEd IMMORTALITY  REIGN WITH CHRIST TO JUDGE THE ANGELS?  Seriously, making no sense.  

WHEN ARE ALL THOSE 'SOULS' UNDER THE ALTAR AVENGED? only at the lake of fire?  that is more than a little while...


If there are 'no dead' during the millennium who will we be priests for and rule over for the 1000 years?  



HOW COULD ANYONE  FOLLOW WHAT IS WRITTEN IF NONE OF IT EVEN RESEMBLES  what is WRITTEN?  


 

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 3:8 THE WIND BLOWETH WHERE IT LISTETH AND THOU HEAREST THE SOUND THEREOF BUT CANST NOT TELL WHENCE IT COMETH AND WHITHER IT GOETH

 SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.  

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


 

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest?

behold, I say unto you,

Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; FOR THEY ARE WHITE ALREADY TO HARVEST.  

John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

John 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

 

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in HIM dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried WITH HIM in baptism, wherein also


YE ARE RISEN WITH HIM THROUGH THE FAITH

OF THE OPERATION OF GOD

WHO HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD  

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, HATH HE QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH HIM HAVING FORGIVEN YOU ALL TRESPASSES.  

 

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 AND HAVING SPOILED PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS

HE MADE A SHEW OF THEM OPENLY, TRIUMPHING OVER THEM IN IT.  


Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life shall appear then shall ye also appear WITH HIM IN GLORY.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM 


1Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, WE SHOULD LIVE TOGETHER WITH HIM 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



 

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME.

 

I BELIEVE there will be A single day, the 2nd Advent of the Lord, the VISUAL return of Him in which all knees shall bow, in which there will be a 'resurrection' of a mass of souls.  

BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE that is the only time the Lord Jesus Christ comes for us.  I believe there are all the days in between where He is gathering souls to be where He is PRESENTLY.   

So I believe there are those who GO TO BE WITH (AND He comes and meets them) and there are those HE WILL COME TO (the 2nd Advent)

I do believe that had HE BEEN ACCEPTED instead of REJECTED there would have been a last day at that time in which all would have been resurrected from the graves at the same time and all who were alive would have been changed.  I believe that since it didn't that at that time we can not NEGATE CHRISTS WORK and the defeating of death.



Written through many interruptions, please forgive me 
 

[Uriah]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

It WAS those who were in the grave that came out AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT IS WRITTEN VS WHAT YOU ARE PUTTING FORTH

Hi DeighAnn

I've gone over these things plenty of times. as far as I am concerned, nobody was resurrected in  Matt. 27. People resurrected aren't called "bodies" that came out of graves! Also this is another parenthetic passage. Should have parentheses, making us follow the narrative back to the split rocks that went into the city and were seen by many. 

[Uriah]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AND ALL BODIES STAY IN THE GRAVE FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND EVER AND HAS NOTHING, I REPEAT, NOTHING TO DO WITH US OR OUR LIFE EVER AGAIN.  IT IS CORRUPTIBLE.  DECAYS.

No, "come forth" according to Jesus when His voice will be heard.

 

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  ONE IS MADE UP FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH AND ANOTHER ONE IS HEAVENLY.  THE DUSTY ONE DOESN'T LAST BUT THE ONE TIME WE ARE PUT IN IT.  WHEN OUR SPIRIT SOUL IS DONE WITH IT IT GOES BACK TO THE DUST FROM WHENCE IT CAME AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN

No, the scripture says "He will quicken our mortal bodies". Jesus has a body of flesh and bones according to His own words.

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

A constant state of NOW???  What does that even mean?

Timelessness. As I said, A thousand years with the Lord is like a day and a day is like a thousand years.

Jesus' body did not perish, it was changed so that He "would not see corruption."  And John said, "we will be like unto Him."

Edited September 27, 2021 by Uriah
add sentence

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Not sure how many times I need to say this but I KNOW NOTHING of all that stuff.  As soon as I have the TIME I will get to 'mans profane history'. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

That's fine, but you need to understand that, whether you know about it or not, it STILL AFFECTS your way of thinking! It's not a long read, but I would greatly suggest that you read the "Appendix A: Christoplatonism's False Assumptions" in the book Heaven (2004, Tyndale House Plublishers, Inc.) by Randy Alcorn. Although I don't agree with all that he writes, he is SPOT ON in this Appendix on the tragic history that was introduced into Christianity so early.

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Till then I work on GODS WORDS, not what all the other men throughout history have written.   If I needed to know that stuff then surely God would not have sent the HOLY SPIRIT to lead and guide me.

REALLY?! I think it would be all the more reason for the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) to lead you and guide you! Because you were ignorant of the history, God would have to spend EXTRA TIME on you in the leading and guiding process!

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  Please try to understand that there is an entire group of 'Christians' that all come off the same way and it gets really tiring. Wouldn't be so bad if God didn't say it wasn't the way to go but, He did.  

Well, don't lump me in with them!

 

To my statement, "'Heaven' DOESN'T mean 'the heaven we know!' (UNLESS, you're thinking of phrases like 'the birds of the heavens.') The truth is this: It's just as moronic to think of 'Heaven' as being a place beyond the 'heaven of clouds' and the 'heaven of stars' as it is to think that Uranus is where the New Jerusalem will be one day because the name 'Uranus' comes from the Greek word 'ouranos,' which means 'sky' and is often translated as 'heaven!' There's no more a 'heaven as God's abode' than there is a 'heaven' on Uranus," you said,

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

how sad,  I will pray 

You don't have to worry about me or pity me. I know what I'm talking about, and I am SAFE and SECURE in my Father's arms.

When I was a teenager, I received an old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) on Christmas in 1970, and I still have it. In my reading, I discovered the notes on 2 Corinthians 12:2 in the center margin that read, ...

d First heaven,
of clouds;
second, of
stars; third,
God's abode.

However, that is just ONE interpretation of this verse's reference to a "third heaven":

2 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

The way this is stated in English seems to suggest that the note in the center margin seems to say what most believers believe today. 

HOWEVER, ...

Let's look at the Greek (transliterated) of this one verse:

Pros Korinthious B 12:2

2 Oida anthroopon en Christoo pro etoon dekatessaroon -- eite en aoomati ouk oida, eite ektos tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden -- harpagenta ton toiouton heoos tritou ouranou.

2 Oida = 2 I-knew/saw
anthroopon = a-man
en = in
Christoo = [the]-Christ/Messiah
pro = before/ago
etoon = years
dekatessaroon -- = fourteen --
eite = whether
en = in
soomati = a-body
ouk = not
oida, = I-do-know/see,
eite = whether
ektos = out
tou = of-the
soomatos = body
ouk = not
oida, = I-do-know/see,
ho = the
Theos = God
oiden -- = knows /sees--
harpagenta = having-been-snatched-away
ton = the
toiouton = such-a-man
heoos = till/until
tritou = a-third
ouranou. = sky.

So, the composite translation is ...

2 I-knew/saw a-man in [the]-Christ/Messiah before/ago years fourteen -- whether in a-body I-do-not-know/see, whether out of-the body I-do-not-know/see, the God knows /sees-- having-been-snatched-away the such-a-man till/until a-third sky.

So, the contextual clues do not give us the same information as the note in the margin.

First, the word "harpagenta" has NO internal information that suggests an "UP" or an "UPWARD DIRECTION" of any kind!

Second, the word "heoos," translated as "till" or "until," suggests a passage of TIME!

Third, the word "ouranou" is the genitive form of the word "ouranos," which I frequently understand to mean the "sky," as Yeshua` used the word in Matthew 16:1-4.

Therefore, while the note suggests a "third heaven" SPATIALLY; that is, a "third heaven" through space, the contextual clues suggest a "third sky" CHRONOLOGICALLY; that is, a "third sky" through TIME!

And, we can find such a "third sky" through time in the writings of Peter:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God  (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (the Flood) 

7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter tells us that there have been two "skies and earths" so far, and that we anticipate a third "sky and earth," a "NEW sky and a NEW earth."

 

In a nutshell, I write...

(1) First skies and first earth
The FLOOD
(2) Second skies and second earth
The FIRE
(3) Third skies and third earth.

 

Thus, Peter says that the "third skies and the third earth" shall occur AFTER the "fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." John tells us in Revelation 20 that this "day of judgment and perdition (sentencing) of ungodly men" is the Great White Throne Judgment.

John then tells us in Revelation 21:1-2,

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon = "sky," accusative case) and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So, let's re-write the note:

Instead of ...

d First heaven,
of clouds;
second, of
stars; third,
God's abode.

It should read, ...

d First sky,
before the Flood;
second, now; 
third, after
the Fire.

This is how it SHOULD have been written! So, the "third heaven" or the "third sky" is that "NEW sky," that "NEW atmosphere," around the NEW Earth in Revelation 21:1.

Paul was PROPHESYING about the FUTURE in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, much as ANY prophet of God would!

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

This is from the prophet Micaiah who spoke on YHWH'S behalf to Ahab, the king of the northern 10 tribes of Israel. This is talking about God's throne in Jerusalem and the spirits (winds) of messengers whom God sent to deceive Ahab. Read the WHOLE account in 1 Kings 22:5-28.

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

These are the words "en tois ouranois," the plural of "ouranos," which means "in the skies." And, what comes down from God out of the skies in Revelation 21:2? The NEW JERUSALEM!

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

I just talked about this passage above.

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Well, contrary to popular belief, the passage in Psalm 68:18 which Paul quoted here for the Ephesians was about the captives being led out of EGYPT during the EXODUS!

Look at it in context:

Psalm 68:1-19 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David.}

Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.
5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
6 God setteth the solitary in families: he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.
7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:
8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.
11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.
13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.
14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.
15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

20 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Yes, that's EXACTLY what happened. Yeshua` spoke to them, and then He was received up into the sky (Greek: eis ton ouranon = "into the sky").

More later ...

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Peter tells us that there have been two "skies and earths" so far, and that we anticipate a third "sky and earth," a "NEW sky and a NEW earth."

That fits PERFECTLY with an AGE before this one, the one where Lucifer was still as he was created, before 'iniquity was found in him'.  

1st Heaven (in which the earth was created)

2nd Heaven (the one we are in NOW)

3rd Heaven (the new heaven and new earth)  

ALSO FITS perfectly WITH was, is and is to come

And the NUMBER 3.  

OH and just think Father (spiritual), The Son (earthy) and the Holy Spirit (spiritual)

OH and the end of the AGES, not just this 2nd age but also encompassing the previous one.  

OH and explains how God 'knew Jeremiah' and 'loved Jacob and hated Esau'  and knew who DIDN'T follow the dragon in that 1st age and so could PRE ORDAIN and foreknew and justify  some and not others, and knows who the 'elect' are and why they have already been judged to eternal life that can never be taken away, and why He can have them work for Him

 

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

(Must have started out good to have made it so far) 1st
 

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

2nd

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

(ever read this? Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 
You think 'those who dwell in them' are just floating around the sky?)



Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

3rd Heaven and earth age  THIS IS WHERE PAUL WAS TAKEN


YES, I do agree with you 100 percent on that explanation.  

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

That fits PERFECTLY with an AGE before this one, the one where Lucifer was still as he was created, before 'iniquity was found in him'.  

1st Heaven (in which the earth was created)

2nd Heaven (the one we are in NOW)

3rd Heaven (the new heaven and new earth)  

ALSO FITS perfectly WITH was, is and is to come

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Ever hear of the acronym SIBKIS? Charles T ("Tremendous") Jones, the motivational speaker, capitalized on this phrase. It stands for "See It Big, Keep It Simple." There's absolutely NO biblical evidence that there was  "an AGE before this one, the one where Lucifer was still as he was created, before 'iniquity was found in him'!" That's a VERY POOR exegesis of Scripture! Not only is it an unfounded hypothesis with no evidence for it, but it's TOTALLY UNNECESSARY!

The whole understanding can be found in a ONE-TIME CREATION and the world that existed from Adam to Noah, the antediluvian ("before flood") world! There's no proof for anything more! There's no NEED for anything more! According to Ussher's count, from 4004 B.C. to 2348 B.C., we had the men who lived several hundred years before they died! What could they have accomplished and achieved in those 1,656 years?! If they worked and talked together all those years, thinking of new developments and new innovations, they could have had a marvelous civilization before God wiped them out! Their lifetimes OVERLAPPED several generations! Noah was born shortly after Seth died! Let that sink in!

Furthermore, they might have been around a lot longer than 1,656 years! If the word "son" means a "descendant" and the word "father" means an "ancestor," as the words were frequenly used, there may have been considerably more time from Adam to Noah! They were the ones responsible for building the Great Piramid at Giza. Arabian history calls it "Enoch's Pillar!" How did they accomplish such a feat? I believe they did it with hard work and technological advances that we don't have now! They did it with singular purpose and working together over hundreds of years! The Arabian story goes like this: God had told Enoch (who walked with God) that He was going to destroy the earth. So, he named his son, Metushelach ("Methusaleh"), which means "in the year he dies, JUDGMENT." He also learned that there would be TWO destructions, the first by water and the second by fire.

To preserve their knowledge, they built TWO pillars, one of brick and the other of stone, the stone pillar is still extant today. Each contained the wisdom and knowledge of the ancients. So, if one was destroyed in the Flood, the other was hoped it would survive. If you can find it, this was written by the historian, Ibn Batuta. This information was given to my by an amateur archaeologist and evangelist, Dr. Herbert Pugmire.

The truth is, if the ages of the ancients are true, then Lamekh (Noah's father) died 5 years before his father Metushelach did, and Metushelach died the year that the Flood struck, not in the Flood, but before:

Enoch (Chanokh) - 3382 BC to 3017 BC (365 years)
Methusaleh (Metushelach) - 3317 BC to 2348 BC (969 years)
Lamech (Lamekh) - 3130 BC to 2353 BC (777 years)
Noah (Noach) - 2948 BC to 1998 BC (950 years)
600th year of Noah, the Flood - 2348 B.C.

We don't need some FICTITIOUS world before Adam's creation! There was NO "GAP" between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And the NUMBER 3.  

So?

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

OH and just think Father (spiritual), The Son (earthy) and the Holy Spirit (spiritual)

Perhaps, this might have more meaning IF AND WHEN you understand the word "spiritual!" You currently DON'T; so, it's meaningless.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

OH and the end of the AGES, not just this 2nd age but also encompassing the previous one.  

Yes, as long as you understand that the "previous" age was that of Adam to Noach!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

OH and explains how God 'knew Jeremiah' and 'loved Jacob and hated Esau'  and knew who DIDN'T follow the dragon in that 1st age and so could PRE ORDAIN and foreknew and justify  some and not others, and knows who the 'elect' are and why they have already been judged to eternal life that can never be taken away, and why He can have them work for Him

Sorry, but this is a load of nonsense. THERE'S NOTHING ABOUT THIS IN THE BIBLE!!!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

The woman represents the children of Israel; it's reminiscent of Yosef's (Joseph's) dream in Genesis.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This is just prior to the First Coming (the First Advent) of the Messiah.

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

(Must have started out good to have made it so far) 1st

This dragon represents haSatan, the Devil, and there's NOTHING GOOD about him!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This is about how haSatan lay in wait for the Messiah to kill Him. Remember Herod the Great?

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

2nd

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is about the Messiah's life and His ascension at the end after His death and resurrection. He has YET to "rule all nations with a rod of iron."

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

(ever read this? Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 
You think 'those who dwell in them' are just floating around the sky?)

"Floating," no. Flying, YES! BIRDS FLY!

6 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

3rd Heaven and earth age  THIS IS WHERE PAUL WAS TAKEN

YES, I do agree with you 100 percent on that explanation.  

Well, that's SOME progress, then.

[Uriah]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:57 AM, Retrobyter said:

Be careful in your universalisms. Be sure that WHEN you extend some effects of an event to the whole earth in every part that such an extension is justifiable.

That is exactly what I will do. Starting at Rev. 6, we see that the sky departed and the WORLD sees Jesus! This is THE second coming, there is no third. It is looking as you read revelation you may be taking it as linear. But it is not strictly linear. 

Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places

Rev 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Rev 6:12- And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Happens twice, or written twice? And there are more similar to these.

These cataclysmic events are explained by statements that are not in linear order.

Meteor showers will precede AND be caused by the stoning from God on the whole world:

Ejected mat'l forms a ring around Earth. The auroral glowing spots on either side (as seen presently at Jupiter) will be where people will see "the face of Him that sits upon the throne" Rev.6                                                                             

Edited September 28, 2021 by Uriah
arrange

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

That is exactly what I will do. Starting at Rev. 6, we see that the sky departed and the WORLD sees Jesus! This is THE second coming, there is no third. It is looking as you read revelation you may be taking it as linear. But it is not strictly linear. 

Shalom, Uriah.

Well, you may THINK that the book of Revelation is "not strictly linear," but if you allow the contextual cues that DEMAND a linear progression to guide you in your understanding of Revelation, you will find that the book is more linear than you thought.

For instance, after the sub-letters to the seven churches (chapters 2 and 3), we find an introduction that LEADS to the opening of the seven seals on the scroll:

Revelation 4:1- (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said,

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

2 And immediately I was in the spirit (on the wind): and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper (blood red) and a sardine (brownish red) stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald (bright green). 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying,

"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 

11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice,

"Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me,

"Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

This is one example of how the context shows that one chapter flows into the next. Drop the chapter divisions, and run the text together. You will find many such transitional steps that confirm the linear nature of the book.

Of course, the opening of the seals, and each seal that is opened shows a linear progression.

Chapter 7 begins with the words "And after these things ..." The end of the first paragraph states, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." 

And then, the 144,000 children of Israel are sealed.

Then, we read, 

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV)

9 AFTER THIS I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Chapter 8 starts with the transition:

Revelation 8:1-2 (KJV)

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Thus, the seven trumpets and the judgments that correspond with those trumpets, linearly follow the seventh seal, which in turn, followed the other six seals.

After the sixth angel sounded his trumpet, we read,

Revelation 10:1-11 (KJV)

1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,

"Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said,

"Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth."

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him,

"Give me the little book."

And he said unto me,

"Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey."

10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11And he said unto me,

"Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

So, there were seven thunders which John was not allowed to write down, and then he was given the little book (scroll) and told that he would have to prophesy.

After this, John was instructed to measure the Temple, leaving out the courtyard of the Gentiles, and then we read about the two witnesses.

They constituted the second Woe, and the third Woe was associated with the seventh trumpet, when the Messiah was make King:

Revelation 11:14-19 (KJV)

14 "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (YHWH God), and of his Christ (His Messiah); and he (YHWH God) shall reign for ever and ever!"

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven (opened to the sky), and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So, the third Woe was indeed YHWH God and His Messiah beginning their reign at the Seventh Trumpet.

As to the trumpet judgments, there will probably be overlaps of these judgments. These "trumpets" are like "air raid sirens," each one warning of another threat to life. I can imaging more than a single siren going off at the same time. Perhaps, they will have different pitches to distinguish the difference between the warnings, but I see nothing in Scripture that demands that these trumpets/sirens were sequential and subsequent.

The end of chapter 14 and the beginning of chapter 15 say,

Revelation 14:14-20; 15:1-8 (KJV)

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud,

"Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying,

"Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs (184 miles).

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God (Exodus 15), and the song of the Lamb, saying,

"Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints (holy ones). 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

So, there's still a linear progression through chapter 15 and then we see the pouring out of those bowls of plagues in chapter 16. There's a linear progression throughout.

The seals, the trumpets, and the bowls are telescoping events. The bowls of plagues are not poured out until AFTER the seventh trumpet, and the trumpets do not begin until AFTER the seventh seal is broken.

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 6:14- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places

To be "moved out of their places" doesn't mean that they no longer exist; they're just not in the same GPS locations!

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Even here, we still have mountains that are NOT affected! There will still be "har-Meggidown," the "MOUNTAIN of Megiddow," "Har-Tsiown," "Mount Zion" is still unaffected, and so is the great mountain from its height the New Jerusalem will be seen landing! 

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 9:14- Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Rev 6:12- And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Happens twice, or written twice? And there are more similar to these.

In Revelation 9, we have four messengers loosed from the Euphrates River. That's not the same as drying up the River found in Revelation 6 which may just be a TEMPORARY diversion of the river!

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

These cataclysmic events are explained by statements that are not in linear order.

Meteor showers will precede AND be caused by the stoning from God on the whole world:

Ejected mat'l forms a ring around Earth. The auroral glowing spots on either side (as seen presently at Jupiter) will be where people will see "the face of Him that sits upon the throne" Rev.6                                                                             

All these interesting pictures don't mean anything. They're just a speculation that you are making about the earth's atmosphere. However, we're not told that ANY of that is true ANYWHERE in Revelation or in any other place of Scripture!