Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

Well, my family and I got back from being on vacation for a week, and it has taken be about a week to get back in the swing of things, if you know what I mean.

I am desirous to continue further along the path of showing by Scripture what I believe concerning the book of Joel and its references to the Day of the LORD.  And, I also want to answer your replies, but without it seeming like we are just going in circles.

Of my repeated requests that you more clearly answer my NUMBER 10 evidence, this stemmed in big part from your first reply to it, which you still have not spoke to.  Your first reply to my NUMBER 10 evidence was this:  "10. `as the blind...` (Deut. 28:29) `As` descriptive of the people not the actual landscape."  In the face of the several scriptures that I gave that indicate otherwise, do you still maintain that the darkness does "not" pertain to the actual landscape?  Whatever your answer, I am feeling that I need to move forward from this.

As I have wondered where we might find common ground, according to your opening statement above (in regard to what you quoted of me), I am taking it that you now agree with me that there was a "...Day of the LORD that came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C...."  Am I assuming correctly?

Concerning your last sentence, you do not mention Joel 1.  Do you still believe Joel 1 is future also?  Also, I would like to clarify---and I would like for it to be perfectly understood---that I see only Joel 1:1-2:27 as being past.  I agree that some of "Joel 2 is future" as well, but only beginning with verse 28.  With the nature of our discussion, these verse specifics have become increasingly important to me.

Hi not an echo,

Glad you and your family had a good break away. Now to your comments -

10. Deut. 28, refers to what God will do to the people of Israel. Isaiah, to darkness of the land.

Forgotten which other scripture you said was also the `Day of the Lord...`

Joel 1 is also about the Day of the Lord. (1:15)

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening statement, I thought this was thoroughly cleared up a good ways back.  I guess not.

Concerning your second paragraph, this deserves a thread all its own.  Have you considered my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse?  Here's the link (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Concerning your third paragraph ("As to the Body of Christ..."), whether to none of the saved, or some, or to the world only, Jesus still made the "thief" (Matt. 24:43) connection in regard to what He was saying, and Paul still made the "as the thief in the night" connection in regard to what He was saying, as does Peter (II Pet. 3:10).  My main reason for mentioning this in the first place was to point out the convergence of the rapture event with the beginning of the DOTL.  Do you believe this?  Also, I am curious concerning what you say in the last sentence of this paragraph.  Do you take "the believers" you here mention as part of the Body of Christ?

Concerning your fourth paragraph, we certainly know that the time is drawing nearer, not further away.  On my end, I would just be careful to clarify that the Lord will come for the rapture of the Church JUST BEFORE the beginning of the DOTL, like the same day, as supported by the convergence of related Scripture around the opening of the 6th Seal.

Concerning your last paragraph, I believe the time is imminent, but a date cannot be put to it.  Well, let me back up.  Many dates have been put to it, but none have been correct and, as I see it, none are going to be correct.  As it shapes up to me, when anyone puts a date to it, we can be sure that it won't be then.

Yes the Body of Christ believers. 

Now we need to remember that the word `day` in Greek means a time period and a specific day. God uses both meanings and the context tells which.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

50 minutes ago, not an echo said:

So, let's continue a little further down the path I've been speaking of, my focus still being on the...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 13---(Joel 2:10)  The verse reads,

¹⁰ The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Of the earth quaking before the LORD's army, consider from I Samuel 14:

¹⁵ And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling.

If the case was such when the Philistines fled before Jonathan and his armourbearer, the "quake" of Joel's prophecy is a non-obstacle, whatever the case or cause.  God can effect such anyway He would like, and has.  The same with the rest.  Consider from Amos 5, which context supports an 8th century fulfillment...

¹⁸ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

¹⁹ As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

²⁰ Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Also, this from Amos 8, which likewise supports an 8th century fulfillment...

⁹ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: 

As far as a 6th century context, note from Ezekiel 32:

⁷ And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

While this is spoken concerning Egypt, the DOTL in that day came upon them as well, as it did the other countries surrounding Israel.

NUMBER 14---(Joel 2:11)  The army causing all the desolation that Joel prophesies of up to this point is referred to as "My army" (meaning God's army).  How could the army under the beast's command be considered God's army?  Now Marilyn, it seems like you are seeing something a little differently on this, but what you have so far put forth is very vague, at least to me.  The only last day's army that I am seeing in Scripture that can be referred to as God's army is the one that will return with Christ at His Second Coming.

NUMBER 15---(Joel 2:12-14)  Considering how we see things taking place in The Revelation, how can what is happening at the hand of Satan and his imps be construed to be something that God would "repent" of---whatever the Israelites might do?  There's no context relating to the last day's DOTL where such a construction can be put on things, IMHO.  What has been prophesied of concerning the last day's is going to happen as prophesied, because the Israelites have done as they have done---as has humanity.

13. Regarding the Philistines & Egypt they are NOT in the northern quarter of the earth. (Joel 2: 20)

14. As you have also said previously God uses different armies to chastise Israel. That is the context of `my army.` And note what the Lord does to that army. (Joel 2: 20)

15. Not quite understanding what you are saying here.

 

[not an echo]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:13 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 11/13/2021 at 8:22 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn,

Well, my family and I got back from being on vacation for a week, and it has taken be about a week to get back in the swing of things, if you know what I mean.

I am desirous to continue further along the path of showing by Scripture what I believe concerning the book of Joel and its references to the Day of the LORD.  And, I also want to answer your replies, but without it seeming like we are just going in circles.

Of my repeated requests that you more clearly answer my NUMBER 10 evidence, this stemmed in big part from your first reply to it, which you still have not spoke to.  Your first reply to my NUMBER 10 evidence was this:  "10. `as the blind...` (Deut. 28:29) `As` descriptive of the people not the actual landscape."  In the face of the several scriptures that I gave that indicate otherwise, do you still maintain that the darkness does "not" pertain to the actual landscape?  Whatever your answer, I am feeling that I need to move forward from this.

As I have wondered where we might find common ground, according to your opening statement above (in regard to what you quoted of me), I am taking it that you now agree with me that there was a "...Day of the LORD that came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C...."  Am I assuming correctly?

Concerning your last sentence, you do not mention Joel 1.  Do you still believe Joel 1 is future also?  Also, I would like to clarify---and I would like for it to be perfectly understood---that I see only Joel 1:1-2:27 as being past.  I agree that some of "Joel 2 is future" as well, but only beginning with verse 28.  With the nature of our discussion, these verse specifics have become increasingly important to me.

Hi not an echo,

Glad you and your family had a good break away. Now to your comments -

10. Deut. 28, refers to what God will do to the people of Israel. Isaiah, to darkness of the land.

Forgotten which other scripture you said was also the `Day of the Lord...`

Joel 1 is also about the Day of the Lord. (1:15)

Hello Marilyn,

Your replies continue to be a curious thing to me.  I have sometimes thought that your one-liners are just an added comment, but more often than not I get the impression that you are just trying to show by some kind of safe, ambiguous, and palatable comment that you are in disagreement with me.  Of course, with such a reply comes the implication that I am a little erroneous in my thinking.  Yet, your one-liners are without substance.

Like the reply of your second line ("10. Deut. 28, refers to...").  Well, it is a reply, but what are you getting at?  Are you suggesting that the "darkness of the land" would not affect the "people of Israel"?  I mean, like the land is really gonna get it now with all this darkness, but the people will not notice?  One of my references was from Jeremiah 13.  Consider again...

¹⁶ Give glory to the LORD your God, before He cause darkness, and before YOUR FEET STUMBLE upon the dark mountains, and, while YE LOOK FOR LIGHT, He turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Or, like the reply of your third line.  In regard to another statement you had made, it caused me to wonder if you now agreed with me that there was a "...Day of the LORD that came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C...."  So, what does it matter if you forgot "which other Scripture" I said was also the Day of the LORD?  Do you agree that there was a "...Day of the LORD that came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C...." or, do you not?

Or, like the reply of your last line.  You had earlier made this statement:  "l still believe Joel 2 is future while you believe in the past."  Okay.  So, because you did not mention Joel 1, I simply asked, "Do you still believe Joel 1 is future also?"  And to this you make your last line reply:  "Joel 1 is also about the Day of the Lord. (1:15)"  Now Marilyn, where I come from, this kind of response just keeps things going in circles.  So, borrowing from your reply, let me ask you this way:  Do you still believe that "the Day of the Lord" spoken of in Joel "(1:15)" is future also?

[not an echo]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:16 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 11/13/2021 at 9:12 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening statement, I thought this was thoroughly cleared up a good ways back.  I guess not.

Concerning your second paragraph, this deserves a thread all its own.  Have you considered my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse?  Here's the link (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

Concerning your third paragraph ("As to the Body of Christ..."), whether to none of the saved, or some, or to the world only, Jesus still made the "thief" (Matt. 24:43) connection in regard to what He was saying, and Paul still made the "as the thief in the night" connection in regard to what He was saying, as does Peter (II Pet. 3:10).  My main reason for mentioning this in the first place was to point out the convergence of the rapture event with the beginning of the DOTL.  Do you believe this?  Also, I am curious concerning what you say in the last sentence of this paragraph.  Do you take "the believers" you here mention as part of the Body of Christ?

Concerning your fourth paragraph, we certainly know that the time is drawing nearer, not further away.  On my end, I would just be careful to clarify that the Lord will come for the rapture of the Church JUST BEFORE the beginning of the DOTL, like the same day, as supported by the convergence of related Scripture around the opening of the 6th Seal.

Concerning your last paragraph, I believe the time is imminent, but a date cannot be put to it.  Well, let me back up.  Many dates have been put to it, but none have been correct and, as I see it, none are going to be correct.  As it shapes up to me, when anyone puts a date to it, we can be sure that it won't be then.

Yes the Body of Christ believers. 

Now we need to remember that the word `day` in Greek means a time period and a specific day. God uses both meanings and the context tells which.

I don't want to belabor this in this thread, but concerning the first sentence of your reply, you had made the following statement:  "As to the Body of Christ we are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake us as a thief.(1 Thess. 5: 4) and also the Lord will not be coming as a thief to us, (Rev. 3: 3). There the Lord is warning the believers to watch so that the Lord doesn`t come upon them as a thief." (underlining mine)  

To this, I made the following statement with the accompanying question:  "Also, I am curious concerning what you say in the last sentence of this paragraph.  Do you take "the believers" you here mention as part of the Body of Christ?"

Your reply is:  "Yes the Body of Christ believers."  I'm just wondering how your reply squares with your position that Christ will only come as a thief to the world?  It seems to me that your reply contradicts your position.

On 11/13/2021 at 11:16 PM, Marilyn C said:

I also don't want to belabor this in this thread, but just to make sure of your position, it seems that by this chart, you are saying that we are in "The Day of Christ" now.  Is that what you are saying?

Also, with your "The Day of the Lord" and "The Day of God" distinction, can you comment on how you make this distinction in light of II Peter 3:10 and 3:12?

Finally, ending on a more positive note , if your (Tribulation) is Daniel's 70th Week, I agree with The Day of the Lord as you have diagrammed.

Well, I was about to push Submit Reply and I scrolled up a little and noticed where you show "Christ & His angels."  I would just like to make sure that you understand that there will be more returning with Christ than His angels (Rev. 19:14).

[not an echo]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:20 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 11/13/2021 at 11:04 PM, not an echo said:

So, let's continue a little further down the path I've been speaking of, my focus still being on the...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 13---(Joel 2:10)  The verse reads,

¹⁰ The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Of the earth quaking before the LORD's army, consider from I Samuel 14:

¹⁵ And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling.

If the case was such when the Philistines fled before Jonathan and his armourbearer, the "quake" of Joel's prophecy is a non-obstacle, whatever the case or cause.  God can effect such anyway He would like, and has.  The same with the rest.  Consider from Amos 5, which context supports an 8th century fulfillment...

¹⁸ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

¹⁹ As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

²⁰ Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Also, this from Amos 8, which likewise supports an 8th century fulfillment...

⁹ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: 

As far as a 6th century context, note from Ezekiel 32:

⁷ And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

While this is spoken concerning Egypt, the DOTL in that day came upon them as well, as it did the other countries surrounding Israel.

NUMBER 14---(Joel 2:11)  The army causing all the desolation that Joel prophesies of up to this point is referred to as "My army" (meaning God's army).  How could the army under the beast's command be considered God's army?  Now Marilyn, it seems like you are seeing something a little differently on this, but what you have so far put forth is very vague, at least to me.  The only last day's army that I am seeing in Scripture that can be referred to as God's army is the one that will return with Christ at His Second Coming.

NUMBER 15---(Joel 2:12-14)  Considering how we see things taking place in The Revelation, how can what is happening at the hand of Satan and his imps be construed to be something that God would "repent" of---whatever the Israelites might do?  There's no context relating to the last day's DOTL where such a construction can be put on things, IMHO.  What has been prophesied of concerning the last day's is going to happen as prophesied, because the Israelites have done as they have done---as has humanity.

13. Regarding the Philistines & Egypt they are NOT in the northern quarter of the earth. (Joel 2: 20)

14. As you have also said previously God uses different armies to chastise Israel. That is the context of `my army.` And note what the Lord does to that army. (Joel 2: 20)

15. Not quite understanding what you are saying here.

Concerning your opening line, I don't see how this response is relevant to my point.  If you look at what I said, I only used I Samuel 14:15 and the scenario of the Philistines as an example of how "the 'quake' of Joel's prophecy is a non-obstacle, whatever the case or cause."  I never suggested that the Philistines were "in the northern quarter of the earth. (Joel 2:20)"   My use of the Ezekiel 32:7 reference (which does pertain to Egypt) is very relevant, as the celestial phenomena there spoken of happened in the 6th century B.C., according to the context of Ezekiel's words.  Do you deny this?  If you do, then we need to pause at this place on our path for a bit.  Moreover, I never suggested that Egypt was ""in the northern quarter of the earth. (Joel 2:20)"   What my use of the former (I Sam. 14:15) and the latter (Ezek. 32:7) references does is sandwich what I point out in Amos 5:18-20 and 8:9, which supports even an 8th century B.C. fulfillment.  There are all kinds of 8th and 6th century B.C. indicators in Scripture that support the fulfillment of the first Day of the LORD that Joel prophesied of.  I feel like this has already been sufficiently established.  But, we still have a good ways to go on our path.

Concerning your "14." reply, what is the point you are making that speaks to my NUMBER 14?  You keep seeing the Joel 2:11 army as being a last days army, but you've never established by Scripture the particular last days army that you want to put into the category of God's army.  Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, and I certainly don't mean to misrepresent your position, but, if the "northern army" (Joel 2:20) is your Russian Federation, then you are saying that this Russian Federation is God's army.  BIG PROBLEM.  Oh, there is a last days army that is God's Army , but it is not the one you are trying to make God's army.    

Concerning your last line, I'm not quite understanding what you're not understanding.  But, I'll say it another way:  How would you make Joel 2:12-14 fit a last days possibility that can be found in The Revelation?

[Marilyn C]

Hi NAE,

My answers tend to be short while yours are longer.

I believe all of Joel is future while you believe some of it is.

Please post more of your points.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[not an echo]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:05 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi not an echo,

Good to look at the details. 

Hello Marilyn,

Well, your previous post has caused me to think some thoughts, but they'll keep till later.

Let's continue a little further down the path I've been speaking of, my focus still being on the...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 16---(Joel 2:15-17)  These verses record a continuation of God's call of the Israelites to repentance that we see in verses 12-14, but with the added instruction to call a gathering and what to request.  How can the specifics of this part of Joel's prophecy be made to fit the specifics of any other prophecy to be found concerning the Israelites of the last days?  During the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, whereas the Israelites might be encouraged to do something temple related, this would come at the bidding of the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3), not the Lord.  To the contrary, the only related instruction of the Lord to the Israelites at this time is, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..." (Matt. 24:16ff).

NUMBER 17---(Joel 2:18-19ff)  As I have already pointed out, the opening word "Then" of 2:18 is key, as it points backward to the condition that must be met before what is promised afterward can be expected to come to pass.  Several pages ago, when I spoke to this, I referenced what is arguably the most familiar "then" condition found in Scripture.  Consider afresh from II Chronicles 7...

¹⁴ If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

But, the passage goes further.  Consider what the LORD promised more specifically to Solomon...

¹⁷ And as for thee (Solomon), if thou wilt walk before Me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe My statutes and My judgments;

¹⁸ THEN will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.

It was certainly God's desire to bless, both the Israelites and Solomon.  But, what if they did not meet the "then" condition?  What THEN?  Consider the very next verses...

¹⁹ But if ye turn away, and forsake My statutes and My commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;

²⁰ THEN will I pluck them up by the roots out of My land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for My name, will I cast out of My sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

²¹ And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?

²² And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath He brought all this evil upon them.

So, we see that things could have gone either way.  Same with what we find prophesied in Joel 2:12-27.  Sadly, the way it went is what history records.  But, I'm reminded of Paul's words, "I say then, Hath God cast away His people?  God forbid..." (Rom. 11:1ff).

Just a little side note.  As an individual, I fell into the depths of sin as a child of God, and just like with the Israelites, God chastened me sore.  But also, as with them, He left a remnant of me.  That's what I was when I reached my bottom---a remnant.  And it was then that God got my attention with the Divine hope that there was more to life than what I was (and had been) experiencing.  The inspiration that I received from God that day was to give Him the same chance that I had given the world.  Well, I guess I met His "then" condition for me (which I've certainly endeavored to do), because He turned everything around in my life and has not ceased to bless me for over 38 years now.  I gladly and thankfully give God the glory for all I am or ever hope to be, because it has been Him, not me.  I did my own thing for several years, and though the catastrophe that my life became did not compute to me, I was at a total loss for the why and what to do about it.  I guess it would be remiss of me not to here give a link to my testimony (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).

NUMBER 18---(Joel 2:20)  How does what is prophesied here fit with anything we see happening in The Revelation?  The Battle of Armageddon doesn't go like this, nor does any other last day's battle or development that I am finding in Scripture.

[Marilyn C]

Hi not an echo,

On to your next points. These are my thoughts -

16. Joel 2: 12 - 17 the call to gather. Now Jesus told the Jews to flee, (Matt. 24: 15 & 16) when they see the A/D standing in the holy place. And we know from Daniel that is in the middle of the trib. (Dan. 9: 27). Whereas Joel 2 concerns the beginning of the trib. 

17. In Ez. 38: 4 we see that the Lord who brought the northern army down to the mountains of Israel, will also make His holy name known to them. (Ez. 39: 7).

18. Joel 3 concerns Armageddon.

regards, Marilyn.

[Keras]

Joel describes ALL the end times events;

They are: Joel 1:13-20, Joel 2:1-11, Joel 2:30-32, Joel 3:4-8, all refer to the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. 

Joel 2:18-29 refers to the Lord's faithful Christian people, living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Verse 20 describes the Gog/ Magog attack and how He will protect His people. 

Joel 3:1-3, Joel 3:9-17,  is for just before Jesus Returns - the Battle of Armageddon. 

Joel 3:18-21, is the Millennium period. 

Typically; Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there; Isaiah 28:13   Only Revelation gives us a general sequence of the end time events, commencing at Rev 6:12.