not an echo Posted February 15, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted February 15, 2022 On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: So.... Where is it recorded in either a scriptural source, an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth that Joel 1-2:27 came to pass with all the elements as spoken: An innumerable destructive army invaded Meat and drink offering cut off from the house of God Food grains destroyed Pastures destroyed Water dried up And all when the DOTL is near And an army that: Never was nor ever will be Appear as horses Sound like chariots Where the nations are afraid of this army When every person fears this army And then a call for repentance Then the Lord destroyed this army The Lord restored all land And never again let His people be ashamed Hello Diaste, I want to back up now to your last post and reply to each of those things over which you yet expressed a concern. For clarification, at the top of this page (32), I had said the following in reply... "As I have said a few times now, I feel that in the course of this thread (and elsewhere) I have answered your concerns with solid Scripture and reasoning. I thought about making the effort once again with your above post, but I don't believe you will ever really be able to see what I have tried to show you until you realize that what happened with the Israelites (and the surrounding nations) in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. were truly "Day of the LORD" judgments. I still haven't seen any indication that you realize this. For now, I'm inclined to continue further down the path of external evidences that I have been showing, in hopes that maybe you will begin to see something that you have not yet been able to accept. I know it can be difficult. Sometimes we have to be able to unsee some things before we can see other things. I fear that in your dismissing of what I have tried to show you from God's Word, you've ended up dismissing some of His Word, without even really realizing it. The important thing is that we truly see what God has revealed to us, and it has long been my goal to both do this and show this. Of course, I know that that would be your goal as well. Just saying. " I am not sure to what extent you have looked at everything I have shown in this thread. I know that such takes time, and for me, I usually don't have the time I would like. I do feel that you, as well as I, seek to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:10-11). I can't help what I have found in my searching and how that this has resulted in my believing as I presently do. But, the whole of what I believe, and the scriptural support for it, goes much further than what I have shown in this thread. I hope that this is not lost sight of during my focus in this particular post. The first point of your concern that you showed above was this: "An innumerable destructive army invaded." It would seem to me that the army of any prevailing world empire would surely fit the bill. Consider what is said in Isaiah 8 concerning Assyria... 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach EVEN TO THE NECK; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. And in Jeremiah 46 we find this concerning the Babylonians... 23 They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, AND ARE INNUMERABLE. 24 The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north (Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon/vs. 26). On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: Meat and drink offering cut off from the house of God This was your second point of concern. In II Kings 24 it reads this of Nebuchadnezzar... 13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the LORD, as the LORD had said. 14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valor, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land. It would seem that this would have caused the meat and the drink offering to be cut off. But if not, in II Kings 25 it reads... 3 And on the ninth day of the fourth month the famine prevailed in the city, and there was no bread for the people of the land. It would seem that this could have lent to the meat and the drink offering being cut off. But if not, in II Kings 25 it also reads... 9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. This definitely would have caused the meat and drink offering to be cut off. To me, it is of note that between the time of Joel's prophecies and the destruction of the northern kingdom, Ahaz, king of Judah, had even "shut up the doors of the house of the LORD" (II Chr. 28:24). Now, in the first year Hezekiah's reign, Hezekiah reopened the doors (II Chr. 29:3). My point is, it is not like the thing of the meat and drink offerings being cut off was something unheard of, as we know by Scripture that even one of Judah's own kings had caused this. On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: Food grains destroyed Pastures destroyed It is important to realize that before the Israelites even entered the land of promise, they had been warned that this sort of thing would befall them if they were disobedient to God. From Deuteronomy 28 note the following verses... 33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: 39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. 49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young: 51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: And, so it was. Jeremiah warned of it in chapter 5... 15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say. 16 Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men. 17 And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword. And in chapter 7... 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. And in chapter 8... 13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them. And in chapter 12, Jeremiah laments what was happening... 4 How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds; because they said, He shall not see our last end. And in chapter 14 we find... 5 Yea, the hind also calved in the field, and forsook it, because there was no grass. 6 And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass. And, did it get as bad as Moses warned in Deuteronomy? Consider from Lamentations 2... 19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the LORD: lift up thy hands toward Him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street. 20 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom Thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord? And from Lamentations 4... 9 They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field. 10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: Water dried up In Isaiah 37, we see this boasted by Sennacherib, king of Assyria... 25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places. In Ezekiel 30, Egypt is warned of such in the days of Nebuchadrezzar... 12 And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I the LORD have spoken it. In Jeremiah 14 we read... 1 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth. 2 Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; they are black unto the ground; and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up. 3 And their nobles have sent their little ones to the waters: they came to the pits, and found no water; they returned with their vessels empty; they were ashamed and confounded, and covered their heads. 4 Because the ground is chapt, for there was no rain in the earth, the plowmen were ashamed, they covered their heads. In Lamentations 4 we read... 4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them. I submit that fathers and mothers would have done all they could in that day, the same as parents would do in our own day. And, if the "sucking child" was in such a state of thirst, what would have been the cause unless the water was dried up or very, very sparse. All the foregoing bespeaks conditions such that it should not be hard for us to do the math. On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: And all when the DOTL is near All the references I have used in the course of this thread revolve around the DOTL judgment(s) that took place in the 8th and/or 6th centuries B.C., unless I have made it very plain otherwise. I will speak to the second section of your concerns in my next post, perhaps tomorrow. I already lost an earlier post of the above that I had been working on because of something that happened. I had to leave for a while, and when I got back and tried to continue, I lost it. Ugh! That hadn't happened to me in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted February 15, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 15, 2022 3 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello Diaste, I want to back up now to your last post and reply to each of those things over which you yet expressed a concern. For clarification, at the top of this page (32), I had said the following in reply... "As I have said a few times now, I feel that in the course of this thread (and elsewhere) I have answered your concerns with solid Scripture and reasoning. I thought about making the effort once again with your above post, but I don't believe you will ever really be able to see what I have tried to show you until you realize that what happened with the Israelites (and the surrounding nations) in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. were truly "Day of the LORD" judgments. I still haven't seen any indication that you realize this. For now, I'm inclined to continue further down the path of external evidences that I have been showing, in hopes that maybe you will begin to see something that you have not yet been able to accept. I know it can be difficult. Sometimes we have to be able to unsee some things before we can see other things. I fear that in your dismissing of what I have tried to show you from God's Word, you've ended up dismissing some of His Word, without even really realizing it. The important thing is that we truly see what God has revealed to us, and it has long been my goal to both do this and show this. Of course, I know that that would be your goal as well. Just saying. " I am not sure to what extent you have looked at everything I have shown in this thread. I know that such takes time, and for me, I usually don't have the time I would like. I do feel that you, as well as I, seek to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:10-11). I can't help what I have found in my searching and how that this has resulted in my believing as I presently do. But, the whole of what I believe, and the scriptural support for it, goes much further than what I have shown in this thread. I hope that this is not lost sight of during my focus in this particular post. The first point of your concern that you showed above was this: "An innumerable destructive army invaded." It would seem to me that the army of any prevailing world empire would surely fit the bill. Consider what is said in Isaiah 8 concerning Assyria... 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach EVEN TO THE NECK; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. And in Jeremiah 46 we find this concerning the Babylonians... 23 They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, AND ARE INNUMERABLE. 24 The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north (Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon/vs. 26). This was your second point of concern. In II Kings 24 it reads this of Nebuchadnezzar... 13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the LORD, as the LORD had said. 14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valor, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land. It would seem that this would have caused the meat and the drink offering to be cut off. But if not, in II Kings 25 it reads... 3 And on the ninth day of the fourth month the famine prevailed in the city, and there was no bread for the people of the land. It would seem that this could have lent to the meat and the drink offering being cut off. But if not, in II Kings 25 it also reads... 9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. This definitely would have caused the meat and drink offering to be cut off. To me, it is of note that between the time of Joel's prophecies and the destruction of the northern kingdom, Ahaz, king of Judah, had even "shut up the doors of the house of the LORD" (II Chr. 28:24). Now, in the first year Hezekiah's reign, Hezekiah reopened the doors (II Chr. 29:3). My point is, it is not like the thing of the meat and drink offerings being cut off was something unheard of, as we know by Scripture that even one of Judah's own kings had caused this. It is important to realize that before the Israelites even entered the land of promise, they had been warned that this sort of thing would befall them if they were disobedient to God. From Deuteronomy 28 note the following verses... 33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: 39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. 49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young: 51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: And, so it was. Jeremiah warned of it in chapter 5... 15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say. 16 Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men. 17 And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword. And in chapter 7... 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. And in chapter 8... 13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them. And in chapter 12, Jeremiah laments what was happening... 4 How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds; because they said, He shall not see our last end. And in chapter 14 we find... 5 Yea, the hind also calved in the field, and forsook it, because there was no grass. 6 And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass. And, did it get as bad as Moses warned in Deuteronomy? Consider from Lamentations 2... 19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the LORD: lift up thy hands toward Him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street. 20 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom Thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord? And from Lamentations 4... 9 They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field. 10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. In Isaiah 37, we see this boasted by Sennacherib, king of Assyria... 25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places. In Ezekiel 30, Egypt is warned of such in the days of Nebuchadrezzar... 12 And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I the LORD have spoken it. In Jeremiah 14 we read... 1 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth. 2 Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; they are black unto the ground; and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up. 3 And their nobles have sent their little ones to the waters: they came to the pits, and found no water; they returned with their vessels empty; they were ashamed and confounded, and covered their heads. 4 Because the ground is chapt, for there was no rain in the earth, the plowmen were ashamed, they covered their heads. In Lamentations 4 we read... 4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them. I submit that fathers and mothers would have done all they could in that day, the same as parents would do in our own day. And, if the "sucking child" was in such a state of thirst, what would have been the cause unless the water was dried up or very, very sparse. All the foregoing bespeaks conditions such that it should not be hard for us to do the math. All the references I have used in the course of this thread revolve around the DOTL judgment(s) that took place in the 8th and/or 6th centuries B.C., unless I have made it very plain otherwise. I will speak to the second section of your concerns in my next post, perhaps tomorrow. I already lost an earlier post of the above that I had been working on because of something that happened. I had to leave for a while, and when I got back and tried to continue, I lost it. Ugh! That hadn't happened to me in a while. Except it all happens at the same time, not spread over centuries. The Joel prophecy relates all of it happening together. That's what I have asked for. When did all of it happen all at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted February 19, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 On 2/15/2022 at 3:40 AM, Diaste said: On 2/14/2022 at 11:39 PM, not an echo said: Hello Diaste, I want to back up now to your last post and reply to each of those things over which you yet expressed a concern. For clarification, at the top of this page (32), I had said the following in reply... "As I have said a few times now, I feel that in the course of this thread (and elsewhere) I have answered your concerns with solid Scripture and reasoning. I thought about making the effort once again with your above post, but I don't believe you will ever really be able to see what I have tried to show you until you realize that what happened with the Israelites (and the surrounding nations) in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. were truly "Day of the LORD" judgments. I still haven't seen any indication that you realize this. For now, I'm inclined to continue further down the path of external evidences that I have been showing, in hopes that maybe you will begin to see something that you have not yet been able to accept. I know it can be difficult. Sometimes we have to be able to unsee some things before we can see other things. I fear that in your dismissing of what I have tried to show you from God's Word, you've ended up dismissing some of His Word, without even really realizing it. The important thing is that we truly see what God has revealed to us, and it has long been my goal to both do this and show this. Of course, I know that that would be your goal as well. Just saying. " I am not sure to what extent you have looked at everything I have shown in this thread. I know that such takes time, and for me, I usually don't have the time I would like. I do feel that you, as well as I, seek to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:10-11). I can't help what I have found in my searching and how that this has resulted in my believing as I presently do. But, the whole of what I believe, and the scriptural support for it, goes much further than what I have shown in this thread. I hope that this is not lost sight of during my focus in this particular post. The first point of your concern that you showed above was this: "An innumerable destructive army invaded." It would seem to me that the army of any prevailing world empire would surely fit the bill. Consider what is said in Isaiah 8 concerning Assyria... 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach EVEN TO THE NECK; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. And in Jeremiah 46 we find this concerning the Babylonians... 23 They shall cut down her forest, saith the LORD, though it cannot be searched; because they are more than the grasshoppers, AND ARE INNUMERABLE. 24 The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people of the north (Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon/vs. 26). This was your second point of concern. In II Kings 24 it reads this of Nebuchadnezzar... 13 And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the LORD, as the LORD had said. 14 And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valor, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land. It would seem that this would have caused the meat and the drink offering to be cut off. But if not, in II Kings 25 it reads... 3 And on the ninth day of the fourth month the famine prevailed in the city, and there was no bread for the people of the land. It would seem that this could have lent to the meat and the drink offering being cut off. But if not, in II Kings 25 it also reads... 9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. This definitely would have caused the meat and drink offering to be cut off. To me, it is of note that between the time of Joel's prophecies and the destruction of the northern kingdom, Ahaz, king of Judah, had even "shut up the doors of the house of the LORD" (II Chr. 28:24). Now, in the first year Hezekiah's reign, Hezekiah reopened the doors (II Chr. 29:3). My point is, it is not like the thing of the meat and drink offerings being cut off was something unheard of, as we know by Scripture that even one of Judah's own kings had caused this. It is important to realize that before the Israelites even entered the land of promise, they had been warned that this sort of thing would befall them if they were disobedient to God. From Deuteronomy 28 note the following verses... 33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway: 39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume. 49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; 50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor show favor to the young: 51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee. 53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: And, so it was. Jeremiah warned of it in chapter 5... 15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say. 16 Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men. 17 And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword. And in chapter 7... 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. And in chapter 8... 13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them. And in chapter 12, Jeremiah laments what was happening... 4 How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds; because they said, He shall not see our last end. And in chapter 14 we find... 5 Yea, the hind also calved in the field, and forsook it, because there was no grass. 6 And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass. And, did it get as bad as Moses warned in Deuteronomy? Consider from Lamentations 2... 19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the LORD: lift up thy hands toward Him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street. 20 Behold, O LORD, and consider to whom Thou hast done this. Shall the women eat their fruit, and children of a span long? shall the priest and the prophet be slain in the sanctuary of the Lord? And from Lamentations 4... 9 They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field. 10 The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: they were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people. In Isaiah 37, we see this boasted by Sennacherib, king of Assyria... 25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places. In Ezekiel 30, Egypt is warned of such in the days of Nebuchadrezzar... 12 And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I the LORD have spoken it. In Jeremiah 14 we read... 1 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth. 2 Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish; they are black unto the ground; and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up. 3 And their nobles have sent their little ones to the waters: they came to the pits, and found no water; they returned with their vessels empty; they were ashamed and confounded, and covered their heads. 4 Because the ground is chapt, for there was no rain in the earth, the plowmen were ashamed, they covered their heads. In Lamentations 4 we read... 4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them. I submit that fathers and mothers would have done all they could in that day, the same as parents would do in our own day. And, if the "sucking child" was in such a state of thirst, what would have been the cause unless the water was dried up or very, very sparse. All the foregoing bespeaks conditions such that it should not be hard for us to do the math. All the references I have used in the course of this thread revolve around the DOTL judgment(s) that took place in the 8th and/or 6th centuries B.C., unless I have made it very plain otherwise. I will speak to the second section of your concerns in my next post, perhaps tomorrow. I already lost an earlier post of the above that I had been working on because of something that happened. I had to leave for a while, and when I got back and tried to continue, I lost it. Ugh! That hadn't happened to me in a while. Except it all happens at the same time, not spread over centuries. The Joel prophecy relates all of it happening together. That's what I have asked for. When did all of it happen all at the same time. Hello Diaste, If I am reading you right, and I hope that I am, your reply here may be the result (in part) of an understanding disconnect that we have had. I have never believed (nor put forth) that what happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. happened from the 8th through the 6th centuries B.C. If you recall, when I began my 30 evidence list of INTERNAL EVIDENCES (way back on page 10/first post/October 19, 2021), I made this statement: "I believe as I do because of what I am seeing both internally (within the book of Joel itself, understood according to Scriptural concepts) and externally (in other places of Scripture, understood according to context)." What I said concerning "understood according to Scriptural concepts" is very important. According to Scriptural concepts, the first prophesied "Day of the LORD" judgment came upon the northern kingdom and Samaria, the climax of which was Samaria being taken around 721 B.C. when Hoshea was king of the northern kingdom and Hezekiah was king of the southern kingdom (II Kgs. 18:10). However, this "Day of the LORD" judgment was prophesied of and began to loom well before this. The winds, if you will, began to pick up when "the king of Assyria came against the land" (II Kgs. 15:19). From this time, things escalated until, according to II Kings 17:6, "the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria." Notice now what is recorded in the very next verses, again, from II Kings 17... ==================== 7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, 8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. 10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: 11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: 12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing. 13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, BY ALL THE PROPHETS, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets. 14 NOTWITHSTANDING they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. 15 AND they rejected His statutes, and His covenant that He made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. 16 AND they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 AND they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 18 THEREFORE THE LORD WAS VERY ANGRY WITH ISRAEL, AND REMOVED THEM OUT OF HIS SIGHT: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. ==================== What happened to the northern kingdom and Samaria happened to the generation that was alive at that time. That generation did not see the next "Day of the LORD" judgment, which came upon the southern kingdom and Jerusalem some 135 years later. So, for ancient Israel, we are talking about two different "Day of the LORD" judgments and two different generations of Israelites. I am now going to utilize the same narrative that I used above concerning the northern kingdom for what happened with the southern kingdom. I'm just going to edit for the sake of the change of relevant facts. My key edits are in bold... According to Scripture, the second prophesied "Day of the LORD" judgment came upon the southern kingdom and Jerusalem, the climax of which was Jerusalem being taken in 586 B.C. when Zedekiah was king of the southern kingdom (II Kgs. 25:1-2ff). However, this "Day of the LORD" judgment was prophesied of and began to loom well before this. The winds, if you will, began to pick up when "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up" (II Kgs. 24:1). From this time, things escalated until there "came Nebuzar-adan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem: And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about. Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard carry away" (II Kgs. 25:8-11). Notice now what is recorded of and after this, in the parallel account of II Chronicles 36... ==================== 15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by His messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because He had compassion on His people, and on His dwelling place: 16 BUT they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, UNTIL THE WRATH OF THE LORD AROSE AGAINST HIS PEOPLE, till there was no remedy. 17 THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon. 19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof. 20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. ==================== To clarify a little further, it is interesting that after the fall of the northern kingdom and Samaria, the Israelites of the southern kingdom and Jerusalem, did not take notice. But, because of a couple of good kings, God spared them for many years (approx. 135). King Hezekiah was a good king, and wrought many reforms, and his great grandson Josiah, even more. But, the rest of Judah's kings were evil, and notwithstanding the reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah, the Israelites continued down a very bad path of disobedience to God, ultimately becoming even worse than those of the northern kingdom. Because the prophet's warnings of the coming DOTL judgments upon of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom concerned all of the Israelites, I have not heretofore seen a need to split hairs over which particular prophecy pertained to the northern kingdom and which pertained to the southern kingdom. If there has ever been some overlaps of prophetic warnings, I think it should not surprise us that there would be some here. The far greater matter of importance is that we realize these facts as we seek to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Finally, there is the last day's Day of the LORD judgment, and I believe we are in agreement that it is looming now, even in our day. But, more on that in other posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted February 19, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 19, 2022 6 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello Diaste, If I am reading you right, and I hope that I am, your reply here may be the result (in part) of an understanding disconnect that we have had. I have never believed (nor put forth) that what happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. happened from the 8th through the 6th centuries B.C. If you recall, when I began my 30 evidence list of INTERNAL EVIDENCES (way back on page 10/first post/October 19, 2021), I made this statement: "I believe as I do because of what I am seeing both internally (within the book of Joel itself, understood according to Scriptural concepts) and externally (in other places of Scripture, understood according to context)." What I said concerning "understood according to Scriptural concepts" is very important. According to Scriptural concepts, the first prophesied "Day of the LORD" judgment came upon the northern kingdom and Samaria, the climax of which was Samaria being taken around 721 B.C. when Hoshea was king of the northern kingdom and Hezekiah was king of the southern kingdom (II Kgs. 18:10). However, this "Day of the LORD" judgment was prophesied of and began to loom well before this. The winds, if you will, began to pick up when "the king of Assyria came against the land" (II Kgs. 15:19). From this time, things escalated until, according to II Kings 17:6, "the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria." Notice now what is recorded in the very next verses, again, from II Kings 17... ==================== 7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, 8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. 10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: 11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: 12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing. 13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, BY ALL THE PROPHETS, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets. 14 NOTWITHSTANDING they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. 15 AND they rejected His statutes, and His covenant that He made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. 16 AND they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 AND they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 18 THEREFORE THE LORD WAS VERY ANGRY WITH ISRAEL, AND REMOVED THEM OUT OF HIS SIGHT: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. ==================== What happened to the northern kingdom and Samaria happened to the generation that was alive at that time. That generation did not see the next "Day of the LORD" judgment, which came upon the southern kingdom and Jerusalem some 135 years later. So, for ancient Israel, we are talking about two different "Day of the LORD" judgments and two different generations of Israelites. I am now going to utilize the same narrative that I used above concerning the northern kingdom for what happened with the southern kingdom. I'm just going to edit for the sake of the change of relevant facts. My key edits are in bold... According to Scripture, the second prophesied "Day of the LORD" judgment came upon the southern kingdom and Jerusalem, the climax of which was Jerusalem being taken in 586 B.C. when Zedekiah was king of the southern kingdom (II Kgs. 25:1-2ff). However, this "Day of the LORD" judgment was prophesied of and began to loom well before this. The winds, if you will, began to pick up when "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up" (II Kgs. 24:1). From this time, things escalated until there "came Nebuzar-adan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem: And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about. Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard carry away" (II Kgs. 25:8-11). Notice now what is recorded of and after this, in the parallel account of II Chronicles 36... ==================== 15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by His messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because He had compassion on His people, and on His dwelling place: 16 BUT they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, UNTIL THE WRATH OF THE LORD AROSE AGAINST HIS PEOPLE, till there was no remedy. 17 THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon. 19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof. 20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. ==================== To clarify a little further, it is interesting that after the fall of the northern kingdom and Samaria, the Israelites of the southern kingdom and Jerusalem, did not take notice. But, because of a couple of good kings, God spared them for many years (approx. 135). King Hezekiah was a good king, and wrought many reforms, and his great grandson Josiah, even more. But, the rest of Judah's kings were evil, and notwithstanding the reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah, the Israelites continued down a very bad path of disobedience to God, ultimately becoming even worse than those of the northern kingdom. Because the prophet's warnings of the coming DOTL judgments upon of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom concerned all of the Israelites, I have not heretofore seen a need to split hairs over which particular prophecy pertained to the northern kingdom and which pertained to the southern kingdom. If there has ever been some overlaps of prophetic warnings, I think it should not surprise us that there would be some here. The far greater matter of importance is that we realize these facts as we seek to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Finally, there is the last day's Day of the LORD judgment, and I believe we are in agreement that it is looming now, even in our day. But, more on that in other posts... Okay. So the Joel prophecies didn't come pass. It hasn't happened as stated in Joel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted February 19, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted February 19, 2022 8 hours ago, Diaste said: 14 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello Diaste, If I am reading you right, and I hope that I am, your reply here may be the result (in part) of an understanding disconnect that we have had. I have never believed (nor put forth) that what happened in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. happened from the 8th through the 6th centuries B.C. If you recall, when I began my 30 evidence list of INTERNAL EVIDENCES (way back on page 10/first post/October 19, 2021), I made this statement: "I believe as I do because of what I am seeing both internally (within the book of Joel itself, understood according to Scriptural concepts) and externally (in other places of Scripture, understood according to context)." What I said concerning "understood according to Scriptural concepts" is very important. According to Scriptural concepts, the first prophesied "Day of the LORD" judgment came upon the northern kingdom and Samaria, the climax of which was Samaria being taken around 721 B.C. when Hoshea was king of the northern kingdom and Hezekiah was king of the southern kingdom (II Kgs. 18:10). However, this "Day of the LORD" judgment was prophesied of and began to loom well before this. The winds, if you will, began to pick up when "the king of Assyria came against the land" (II Kgs. 15:19). From this time, things escalated until, according to II Kings 17:6, "the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria." Notice now what is recorded in the very next verses, again, from II Kings 17... ==================== 7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, 8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. 10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: 11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: 12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing. 13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, BY ALL THE PROPHETS, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets. 14 NOTWITHSTANDING they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. 15 AND they rejected His statutes, and His covenant that He made with their fathers, and His testimonies which He testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. 16 AND they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 AND they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger. 18 THEREFORE THE LORD WAS VERY ANGRY WITH ISRAEL, AND REMOVED THEM OUT OF HIS SIGHT: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. ==================== What happened to the northern kingdom and Samaria happened to the generation that was alive at that time. That generation did not see the next "Day of the LORD" judgment, which came upon the southern kingdom and Jerusalem some 135 years later. So, for ancient Israel, we are talking about two different "Day of the LORD" judgments and two different generations of Israelites. I am now going to utilize the same narrative that I used above concerning the northern kingdom for what happened with the southern kingdom. I'm just going to edit for the sake of the change of relevant facts. My key edits are in bold... According to Scripture, the second prophesied "Day of the LORD" judgment came upon the southern kingdom and Jerusalem, the climax of which was Jerusalem being taken in 586 B.C. when Zedekiah was king of the southern kingdom (II Kgs. 25:1-2ff). However, this "Day of the LORD" judgment was prophesied of and began to loom well before this. The winds, if you will, began to pick up when "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up" (II Kgs. 24:1). From this time, things escalated until there "came Nebuzar-adan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem: And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about. Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzar-adan the captain of the guard carry away" (II Kgs. 25:8-11). Notice now what is recorded of and after this, in the parallel account of II Chronicles 36... ==================== 15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by His messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because He had compassion on His people, and on His dwelling place: 16 BUT they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, UNTIL THE WRATH OF THE LORD AROSE AGAINST HIS PEOPLE, till there was no remedy. 17 THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand. 18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon. 19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof. 20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia: 21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years. ==================== To clarify a little further, it is interesting that after the fall of the northern kingdom and Samaria, the Israelites of the southern kingdom and Jerusalem, did not take notice. But, because of a couple of good kings, God spared them for many years (approx. 135). King Hezekiah was a good king, and wrought many reforms, and his great grandson Josiah, even more. But, the rest of Judah's kings were evil, and notwithstanding the reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah, the Israelites continued down a very bad path of disobedience to God, ultimately becoming even worse than those of the northern kingdom. Because the prophet's warnings of the coming DOTL judgments upon of the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom concerned all of the Israelites, I have not heretofore seen a need to split hairs over which particular prophecy pertained to the northern kingdom and which pertained to the southern kingdom. If there has ever been some overlaps of prophetic warnings, I think it should not surprise us that there would be some here. The far greater matter of importance is that we realize these facts as we seek to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Finally, there is the last day's Day of the LORD judgment, and I believe we are in agreement that it is looming now, even in our day. But, more on that in other posts... Expand Okay. So the Joel prophecies didn't come pass. It hasn't happened as stated in Joel. Sorry Diaste, but I really don't understand where you are coming from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted February 20, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted February 20, 2022 On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: So.... Where is it recorded in either a scriptural source, an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth that Joel 1-2:27 came to pass with all the elements as spoken: An innumerable destructive army invaded Meat and drink offering cut off from the house of God Food grains destroyed Pastures destroyed Water dried up And all when the DOTL is near And an army that: Never was nor ever will be Appear as horses Sound like chariots Where the nations are afraid of this army When every person fears this army And then a call for repentance Then the Lord destroyed this army The Lord restored all land And never again let His people be ashamed I want to pick back up now and speak to the second section of your concerns. I had meant to do this several days ago, but the week ended up having me spread too thin. The first point of your concern in the second section is "Never was nor ever will be." You are here alluding to what it says in Joel 2:2... 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of MANY generations. On the word "MANY" that I have emphasized, the various translations differ on this, some favoring "many" or similar and some favoring "all" or similar. And then, there are some ambiguous translations. Of course, the difference in "many" and "all" is apparent. Whatever may have caused a translation committee to settle on one or the other, I can see one's understanding of "the Day of the LORD" having a bit of influence here. On my end, with the volume of Scripture that I see in support of this speaking of Babylon and what happened to the southern kingdom in the 6th century B.C., what the KJV shows here has never presented a flag to me. A blessing for me is that there is nothing I am believing about anything that involves my appealing to another translation. But, I am not what some regard as a KJV only. I have often been helped in my understanding by looking at other translations. I have a dozen in my library, and we all have access to many more on the Internet. Also, I like word studies. More correctly, I guess I should say that I have liked word studies more so in the past than I do now. There was a time that I came to realize that the meaning of sentences and paragraphs depend upon a little more than what can be squeezed out of the definition of any component part. I much prefer just getting absorbed in Scripture with the use of a solid translation. That's what I would recommend for anyone. On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: Appear as horses Sound like chariots In Joel 2 it reads... 4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. 5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. My first thought when I consider the above is that the prophecy is here alluding to the "locusts" (1:4) spoken of earlier, which I see also as the "nation" of Joel 1:6. When the Jews looked in the direction of the advancing Babylonians (or the Assyrians for that matter), especially from higher elevations, I can easily imagine that they looked like a swarm of locusts, except that they had the appearance of horses, because that is what they were. I can see this also being the case with the "locusts" of Revelation 9, but being outfitted somewhat differently, on account of the possibilities that our modern day weapons provide. Concerning the "Sound like chariots" I am not sure what your concern would be. If I had been an Israelite and knew what a chariot sounded like, in the face of such a warning, I wouldn't want to hear what sounded like a multitude of these getting closer from a distance. This sound would certainly mean it was time to get the wife and kids to a place of safety, if such a place existed. On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: Where the nations are afraid of this army When every person fears this army When the prophets began to warn the ungodly Israelites concerning the army that would be coming against them, they had plenty of reason to fear, based simply upon what was written in their law (see Deut. 28:49-57). When King Josiah heard the law read from (II Kgs. 22:10-13ff), he was able to do the math. In Jeremiah 5 we find what was written in the law echoed... 15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say. 16 Their quiver is as an open sepulchre, they are all mighty men. 17 And they shall eat up thine harvest, and thy bread, which thy sons and thy daughters should eat: they shall eat up thy flocks and thine herds: they shall eat up thy vines and thy fig trees: they shall impoverish thy fenced cities, wherein thou trustedst, with the sword. In Jeremiah 6 we read... 22 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth. 23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion. 24 WE HAVE HEARD THE FAME THEREOF: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail. 25 Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy AND FEAR IS ON EVERY SIDE. The Philistines also got warned. From Jeremiah 47 consider... 1 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah the prophet against the Philistines, before that Pharaoh smote Gaza. 2 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein; the city, and them that dwell therein: THEN THE MEN SHALL CRY, and all the inhabitants of the land shall howl. 3 At the noise of the stamping of the hoofs of his strong horses, at the rushing of his chariots, and at the rumbling of his wheels, THE FATHERS SHALL NOT LOOK BACK TO THEIR CHILDREN FOR FEEBLENESS OF HANDS; 4 Because of the day that cometh to spoil all the Philistines, and to cut off from Tyrus and Zidon every helper that remaineth: for the LORD will spoil the Philistines, the remnant of the country of Caphtor. In Ezekiel 26 we find this warning to Tyrus... 7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. 8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. 9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. 10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. 11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. 12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. 13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. 14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. In Ezekiel 32 we find this warning to the Egyptians... 10 Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, AND THEIR KINGS SHALL BE HORRIBLY AFRAID FOR THEE, when I shall brandish My sword before them; AND THEY SHALL TREMBLE AT EVERY MOMENT, every man FOR HIS OWN LIFE, in the day OF THY FALL. 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee. 12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall, THE TERRIBLE OF THE NATIONS, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. It looks like God had a word for all the heathen through Habakkuk. From chapter 1 note... 5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you. 6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's. 7 They are TERRIBLE AND DREADFUL: their judgment and their dignity SHALL PROCEED OF THEMSELVES. 8 Their horses also are swifter than the leopards, and are more fierce than the evening wolves: and their horsemen shall spread themselves, and their horsemen shall come from far; they shall fly as the eagle that hasteth to eat. 9 They shall come all for violence: their faces shall sup up as the east wind, and they shall gather the captivity as the sand. 10 And they shall scoff AT THE KINGS, AND THE PRINCES SHALL BE A SCORN UNTO THEM: they shall deride every strong hold; for they shall heap dust, and take it. And there's more Diaste. But my time is getting away from me. It seems that what I have shown should be more than enough. Just like in our day, word would have got around. The advance of a great army is not something that happens in a corner. In that day, to me, it would be hard to imagine the advance of an army strong enough to rule the then known world not striking fear in any nation it would come against. That the Israelites (and the heathen) did not heed the prophets' warnings and get right with God in the face of such ominous destruction certainly bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of mankind. On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: And then a call for repentance Then the Lord destroyed this army The Lord restored all land And never again let His people be ashamed I'm out of time for tonight. And, as my post has again gotten long, it's probably best to finish with another post. I'll pick up here when I'm able to return... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted February 20, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 20, 2022 6 hours ago, not an echo said: 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of MANY generations. there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, can't be ignored in favor of a word that doesn't appear. Do you realize 'many' is not in the text? Stating there was never a similar force and never will be again is the main point and 'shanah dor' is an idiomatic emphasis. It's closer to 'annually forever' than 'many generations' since 'many' isn't in the text. 6 hours ago, not an echo said: Concerning the "Sound like chariots" I am not sure what your concern would be. If I had been an Israelite and knew what a chariot sounded like, in the face of such a warning, I wouldn't want to hear what sounded like a multitude of these getting closer from a distance. This sound would certainly mean it was time to get the wife and kids to a place of safety, if such a place existed. I didn't make this argument. You present it like it was a topic and it was not. I said: Where is it recorded in either a scriptural source, an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth that Joel 1-2:27 came to pass with all the elements as spoken: An innumerable destructive army invaded Meat and drink offering cut off from the house of God Food grains destroyed Pastures destroyed Water dried up And all when the DOTL is near And an army that: Never was nor ever will be Appear as horses Sound like chariots Where the nations are afraid of this army When every person fears this army And then a call for repentance Then the Lord destroyed this army The Lord restored all land And never again let His people be ashamed You're cherry picking items, deliberately ignoring the entire concept. Again: Where is it recorded in either a scriptural source, an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth that Joel 1-2:27 came to pass with all the elements as spoken: [as presented above] And they need to occur concurrent just like Joel said. 6 hours ago, not an echo said: When the prophets began to warn the ungodly Israelites concerning the army that would be coming against them, they had plenty of reason to fear, Why do you do this? That's not what the text records. KJV "Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness." BSB "Nations writhe in horror before them; every face turns pale." This army terrorizes the nations and is not Israel-centric here. It's hard to understand, I know, but the Israel of God are the believers in Christ. There is an Israel of borders but that isn't the Israel of import. Jerusalem is the holy city of God so the action of Joel has Jerusalem as it's ultimate target both for God and His enemy. At this point in Joel's record of the word of the Lord it's the nations, not solely Israel of borders and Jerusalem, it's everyone everywhere. 6 hours ago, not an echo said: Just like in our day, word would have got around. The advance of a great army is not something that happens in a corner. In that day, to me, it would be hard to imagine the advance of an army strong enough to rule the then known world not striking fear in any nation it would come against. That the Israelites (and the heathen) did not heed the prophets' warnings and get right with God in the face of such ominous destruction certainly bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of mankind. So when did it all happen, every event and condition in proximity to every other event and condition, as recorded? Joel's record of the word of the Lord that came to him begins with the day of the Lord near and climaxes in 2:27 with; Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I am the LORD your God, and there is no other. My people will never again be put to shame. At what point in history after the prophecy of Joel was the Lord present in Israel and His people never again put to shame? His people were shamed numerous times since then to the 1st century AD, as you point out. Herod killed the young male children after Jesus was born, pretty shameful. The apostles were put to death in various ways. Believers died under the Romans at the behest of the Jews, that's terribly shameful. How about 70 AD? Ouch. Then the Jews were scattered abroad, no homeland, very shameful. The Holocaust? Exceedingly shameful. Believers are put to death in shameful ways every day, right now. So when did this 'never again be put to shame' happen and when was the Lord present in Israel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted February 22, 2022 On 2/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said: On 2/6/2022 at 4:55 AM, Diaste said: And then a call for repentance Then the Lord destroyed this army The Lord restored all land And never again let His people be ashamed I'm out of time for tonight. And, as my post has again gotten long, it's probably best to finish with another post. I'll pick up here when I'm able to return... Picking back up where I had to leave off, the "call for repentance" that you are speaking of is found in the 2:12-17 section of Joel's prophecy. And, the three things you point to after this are in the 2:18-27 section that immediately follows. But, there is a pivot point Diaste, right between these two sections, and that is found in the word "Then" in 2:18. I have spoke of this several times in the course of this thread and I believe I have spoke to you of it. I have referred to it as the "THEN condition" repeatedly. Moreover, I have stressed that because they did not meet this THEN condition, they did not experience the blessing connected with it, which 2:18-27 concerns. Said another way, it did not happen. Rather, the 70 years of Babylonian captivity, spoken of by Jeremiah took place (Jer. 25:8-11). Scripture? Consider again from II Kings 17, in Hezekiah's day, when Assyria was taking the northern kingdom and Samaria and breathing down Hezekiah's neck. I included the following two verses of the II Kings 17:7-18 passage in my first post at the top of this page (p. 33), but I really didn't point out what I have noted here. Hope you will consider again... 13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, TURN YE (sound familiar?---Joel 2:12) from your evil ways, and keep My commandments and My statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by My servants the prophets. 14 NOTWITHSTANDING they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. Much, much later, in Zechariah's prophecy, consider this that is written in retrospect, from chapter one... 1 In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying, 2 The LORD hath been sore displeased WITH YOUR FATHERS. 3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; TURN YE unto Me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will TURN unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 BE NOT AS YOUR FATHERS, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; TURN YE now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but THEY did not hear, nor hearken unto Me, saith the LORD. 5 Your fathers, where are they? and the prophets, do they live for ever? 6 But My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, DID THEY NOT TAKE HOLD OF YOUR FATHERS? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, ACCORDING to our ways, and ACCORDING to our doings, SO HATH HE DEALT WITH US. When I think of this, I think of Daniel's words of repentance, in Daniel 9. I encourage you to read the verses that proceed the following, but note especially these... 10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed Thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey Thy voice; therefore THE CURSE (Deut. 28:15-61ff) is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He hath confirmed His words, which He spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might TURN from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth. 14 THEREFORE hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all His works which He doeth: for WE OBEYED NOT His voice. I have pointed out what we find in Jeremiah 25, but I don't remember if I emphasized the following. Consider again... 4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all His servants the prophets (which certainly included Joel), rising early and sending them; BUT ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear. 5 They said, TURN YE again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers FOR EVER AND EVER: 6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke Me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. 7 YET ye have not hearkened unto Me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt. 8 THEREFORE thus saith the LORD of hosts; BECAUSE ye have not heard My words, 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, MY SERVANT, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. I am now kinda regretting that along the way I have emphasized so much. Not only does it take more time, but it is a known that the more that is emphasized, the less the emphasis is often noted. Be that as it may, I hope that my emphasizing of so much has not ended up nullifying my purpose and becoming a distraction. If it has, then you should be able to appreciate the following. Here's 10 more references that support my position on the THEN condition that the Israelites did not meet, that you can look up in God's Word for yourself, totally un-emphasized (except for what the Holy Spirit draws your attention to)... Deuteronomy 30:1-20 II Chronicles 36:15-21 Isaiah 1:1-20 Jeremiah 7:1-34 Jeremiah 15:1-7 Jeremiah 26:1-6 Jeremiah 32:23-33 Jeremiah 35:12-17 Ezekiel 23:1-49 Amos 4:1-13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted February 26, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted February 26, 2022 On 2/20/2022 at 5:42 AM, Diaste said: On 2/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said: 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of MANY generations. there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, can't be ignored in favor of a word that doesn't appear. Do you realize 'many' is not in the text? Stating there was never a similar force and never will be again is the main point and 'shanah dor' is an idiomatic emphasis. It's closer to 'annually forever' than 'many generations' since 'many' isn't in the text. Hello Diaste, Of the six Bible translations provided on this site, three versions translate "dowr dowr " as "of many generations" (KJV, ASV, WEB) while one has it "of generation and generation" (YLT), one has it "of generations and generations" (DARBY), and one has it "from generation to generation" (BBE). This means that the most consistent translation made of the Hebrew by the translators of the text is as the KJV shows---"of MANY generations." You can scan on Bible Hub through its stock of translations and easily see that about half show one thing and half the other, with some giving an ambiguous take on it, as I indicated previously. With the scale balanced such, it is a very easy scale tipper when it is understood by Scripture that the Babylonian's invasion of Judah and destruction of Jerusalem in the 6th century B.C. was a "Day of the LORD" judgment. When this is realized, the need to consider this when seeking to interpret Joel's prophecy becomes obvious, and the correct take on Joel 2:2 even more so. In regard to your last sentence, I don't see "annually forever" in the text. Borrowing from your words, but just positioned a little differently, "It's closer to ['many generations'] than ['annually forever'] since ['annually'] isn't in the text." I do, however, agree with this having "an idiomatic emphasis" but not to the extreme you have pressed for it. On 2/20/2022 at 5:42 AM, Diaste said: On 2/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said: Concerning the "Sound like chariots" I am not sure what your concern would be. If I had been an Israelite and knew what a chariot sounded like, in the face of such a warning, I wouldn't want to hear what sounded like a multitude of these getting closer from a distance. This sound would certainly mean it was time to get the wife and kids to a place of safety, if such a place existed. I didn't make this argument. You present it like it was a topic and it was not. I said: Where is it recorded in either a scriptural source, an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth that Joel 1-2:27 came to pass with all the elements as spoken: An innumerable destructive army invaded Meat and drink offering cut off from the house of God Food grains destroyed Pastures destroyed Water dried up And all when the DOTL is near And an army that: Never was nor ever will be Appear as horses Sound like chariots Where the nations are afraid of this army When every person fears this army And then a call for repentance Then the Lord destroyed this army The Lord restored all land And never again let His people be ashamed You're cherry picking items, deliberately ignoring the entire concept. Again: Where is it recorded in either a scriptural source, an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth that Joel 1-2:27 came to pass with all the elements as spoken: [as presented above] And they need to occur concurrent just like Joel said. If I deal with all the cherries, how in am I "cherry picking items"? You make the statement that I am "deliberately ignoring the entire concept." It seems by such a statement that you are regarding me with contempt on this, and all I have ever tried to do was show you how everything fits with Scriptural concepts. I have wondered if your concept of Joel's prophecy, which you expressed "[as presented above] And they need to occur concurrent just like Joel said" means that you see all of this happening in a day, like Monday. IMO, whatever you are thinking on this, in your insistence that what Joel prophesied in 1:1-2:27 fit "the entire concept" of how you see the entire concept, you end up clinging to a position that is in conflict with Scripture. Moreover, I don't see the need to look beyond "a scriptural source" to "an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth" on the question, when Scripture has so thoroughly furnished us. If we can't agree on the Premier Source, all the other sources would just make fodder for further disagreement. On 2/20/2022 at 5:42 AM, Diaste said: On 2/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said: When the prophets began to warn the ungodly Israelites concerning the army that would be coming against them, they had plenty of reason to fear, Why do you do this? That's not what the text records. KJV "Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness." BSB "Nations writhe in horror before them; every face turns pale." This army terrorizes the nations and is not Israel-centric here. It's hard to understand, I know, but the Israel of God are the believers in Christ. There is an Israel of borders but that isn't the Israel of import. Jerusalem is the holy city of God so the action of Joel has Jerusalem as it's ultimate target both for God and His enemy. At this point in Joel's record of the word of the Lord it's the nations, not solely Israel of borders and Jerusalem, it's everyone everywhere. In light of what I had shown, I'm not really picking up on what you are getting at here. My position (if I'm understanding you correctly ) would be that Israel and all the nations had plenty of reason to fear. Not just Israel, and not just all the other nations. Israel and all the nations. I listed the reaction of other nations as well, not just Israel. And, in summing up what I showed, I said this: "In that day, to me, it would be hard to imagine the advance of an army strong enough to rule the then known world not striking fear in any nation it would come against." Again, I'm not really picking up on what you are getting at here. On 2/20/2022 at 5:42 AM, Diaste said: On 2/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, not an echo said: Just like in our day, word would have got around. The advance of a great army is not something that happens in a corner. In that day, to me, it would be hard to imagine the advance of an army strong enough to rule the then known world not striking fear in any nation it would come against. That the Israelites (and the heathen) did not heed the prophets' warnings and get right with God in the face of such ominous destruction certainly bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of mankind. So when did it all happen, every event and condition in proximity to every other event and condition, as recorded? Joel's record of the word of the Lord that came to him begins with the day of the Lord near and climaxes in 2:27 with; Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I am the LORD your God, and there is no other. My people will never again be put to shame. At what point in history after the prophecy of Joel was the Lord present in Israel and His people never again put to shame? His people were shamed numerous times since then to the 1st century AD, as you point out. Herod killed the young male children after Jesus was born, pretty shameful. The apostles were put to death in various ways. Believers died under the Romans at the behest of the Jews, that's terribly shameful. How about 70 AD? Ouch. Then the Jews were scattered abroad, no homeland, very shameful. The Holocaust? Exceedingly shameful. Believers are put to death in shameful ways every day, right now. So when did this 'never again be put to shame' happen and when was the Lord present in Israel? My previous post majors on this, as does several posts that I have made in this thread. It is very apparent that there is a major difference in how we interpret this. I hope that you will continue to look at it. Much Scripture reinforces my position on it. There is no way I could take another position in light of what Scripture reveals. To me, to argue otherwise is just to argue with Scripture. The same as on the question of whether there was an 8th and 6th century "Day of the LORD" judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted February 26, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,640 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,372 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2022 4 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello Diaste, Of the six Bible translations provided on this site, three versions translate "dowr dowr " as "of many generations" (KJV, ASV, WEB) while one has it "of generation and generation" (YLT), one has it "of generations and generations" (DARBY), and one has it "from generation to generation" (BBE). This means that the most consistent translation made of the Hebrew by the translators of the text is as the KJV shows---"of MANY generations." You can scan on Bible Hub through its stock of translations and easily see that about half show one thing and half the other, with some giving an ambiguous take on it, as I indicated previously. With the scale balanced such, it is a very easy scale tipper when it is understood by Scripture that the Babylonian's invasion of Judah and destruction of Jerusalem in the 6th century B.C. was a "Day of the LORD" judgment. When this is realized, the need to consider this when seeking to interpret Joel's prophecy becomes obvious, and the correct take on Joel 2:2 even more so. In regard to your last sentence, I don't see "annually forever" in the text. Borrowing from your words, but just positioned a little differently, "It's closer to ['many generations'] than ['annually forever'] since ['annually'] isn't in the text." I do, however, agree with this having "an idiomatic emphasis" but not to the extreme you have pressed for it. It's the only understanding that makes sense given the context. The word for 'not' or 'nor', depending on the whim of the translator, comes from 'lo'. When it's placed before a word that is not a verb it negates what follows. Hence 'lo dovr vadovr' is 'not generation and generation' negating the generations and meaning 'never'. One of the ideas of 'dovr' is 'annual'. This is the usage: "age-old (1), all generations (20), another (1), dwelling (1), every generation (1), forever (1), generation (53), generations (52), kind (4), many generations (3), nor (1), time (2)." 'many generations' is but one use. From Brown-Driver-Briggs: "b. usually of duration to come, future age(s), לְדֹר שְׁנֵי דּוֺר וָדוֺר Joel 2:2 It's not an arbitrary notion of a specific time period, it's never again. As you can see depending on the context 'dovr' can be used as a single generation, many generations, all generations, the non specific generation, or forever. Then also depending on how the sentence is constructed it's one of the above usages. Since 'dovr' is immediately preceded by 'lo' and 'lo' negates the non verb, the text isn't telling us it's some future generation, it's never again. 4 hours ago, not an echo said: If I deal with all the cherries, how in am I "cherry picking items"? You make the statement that I am "deliberately ignoring the entire concept." It seems by such a statement that you are regarding me with contempt on this, and all I have ever tried to do was show you how everything fits with Scriptural concepts. I have wondered if your concept of Joel's prophecy, which you expressed "[as presented above] And they need to occur concurrent just like Joel said" means that you see all of this happening in a day, like Monday. IMO, whatever you are thinking on this, in your insistence that what Joel prophesied in 1:1-2:27 fit "the entire concept" of how you see the entire concept, you end up clinging to a position that is in conflict with Scripture. Moreover, I don't see the need to look beyond "a scriptural source" to "an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth" on the question, when Scripture has so thoroughly furnished us. If we can't agree on the Premier Source, all the other sources would just make fodder for further disagreement. It's not that I don't agree on the source. I do. I didn't ask for "an extra scriptural source, reliable historian, archeology, or internet sleuth" to prove the truth of Scripture. I asked for the above as proof the prophecies came to pass as you said they did in the manner Joel said they would come to pass. If the prophecies occurred in the past AS JOEL SAID, then there would be physical proof or some historian would have recorded it. Joel relates certain conditions would be present ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Joel doesn't say those conditions would occur apart from one another by a series of conquering armies over centuries or separated by two centuries. In order for the prophecy to be FULLFILLED AS JOEL SAID then a unique army never before seen, the A of D, grains burned, grass burned, trees scorched, water dried up, no wine or oil, nations in fear, all the people in fear, and the nearness of the DOTL must all be in existence at the same time. Now that would be a paradigm worth securing for posterity. In addition to the above the moon, sun and stars all go out in Joel 2:10 AT THE SAME TIME. This is not to mention the Lord securing His people so they will again be ashamed. Something you say has already happened as your cutoff for the past fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel is 2:27. Joel 2:19, I will never again make you a reproach among the nations. Joel 2:26. My people will never again be put to shame. Joel 2:27, Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I am the LORD your God, and there is no other. My people will never again be put to shame. So when did the 'never again be put to shame' happen? When was the Lord present in Israel? 4 hours ago, not an echo said: In light of what I had shown, I'm not really picking up on what you are getting at here. My position (if I'm understanding you correctly ) would be that Israel and all the nations had plenty of reason to fear. Not just Israel, and not just all the other nations. Israel and all the nations. I listed the reaction of other nations as well, not just Israel. And, in summing up what I showed, I said this: "In that day, to me, it would be hard to imagine the advance of an army strong enough to rule the then known world not striking fear in any nation it would come against." Again, I'm not really picking up on what you are getting at here. The context of Joel isn't 'the nations an army would come against'; it's the idea that every nation and all the people fear. Nations writhe in horror before them; every face turns pale. Nations here is 'am' that's people. 'Every' is 'kol' and that's 'all'. This dread isn't specific to Israel, it's all nations and all people. If it was just the single nation in this unique army comes against the text would not specify 'the whole all' neither the generic term for people. To claim it's just a single nation or people is filling a gap. It's an unjustified ascension over what's specifically written. 4 hours ago, not an echo said: My previous post majors on this, as does several posts that I have made in this thread. It is very apparent that there is a major difference in how we interpret this. I hope that you will continue to look at it. Much Scripture reinforces my position on it. There is no way I could take another position in light of what Scripture reveals. To me, to argue otherwise is just to argue with Scripture. The same as on the question of whether there was an 8th and 6th century "Day of the LORD" judgment. No matter what no past action came with everything Joel states must accompany the whole of the prophetic utterance. A huge stumbling block for past fulfillment is 'My people will never again be ashamed' and 'then we will know the Lord is present in Israel'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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