Why would God punish us in this dispensation (New Covenant) when Christ has been punished for us?

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, Kelly2363 said:

I think you have misunderstood me clearly. And there seems to be no shortage of that on Internet forums. What I do know, however, as a fact of face to face life in the churches and in private with Pastors and Elders - and even occasionally with some brethren that are extremely gifted and have a good account to their ministries - this subject is misunderstood even when it is stated plainly. The reason for that seems to be essentially characterised in what you opened the thread with. Unless of course I have misunderstood you.

But if we take the element I have highlighted in red above then what could I say of that - seeing as you have asked me?

Well I would say that it sounds like the truth. And even in saying that the inflection already gives cause to be concerned that I saying that it is a lie. That is the problem with spiritual meanings. A truth must be true as God reckons truth and as the Scripture proves its meaning - but truth must also be set in the reality of the experience of brethren in the churches - so that a sounds like the truth - may not in fact do any harm and neither might it be a lie. Whereas, it may in truth be well short of what is either needful or biblically true. And the measure of that is set in prophetic lines that cannot be easily explained.

So if for example you were in my church and you shared onetime and said precisely what you have said in red above - then it is likely that almost the entirety of the church would say Amen. Only a bitter person may stumble at it. And a bitter person may have good cause to be bitter because he may have been genuinely harmed in the church itself. So when he hear that which asserts a meaning that tells them that Jesus' blood covers our sins - or that He bore our sins in His own body - or that He was chastised for our iniquities - he may well remember that these things were once his and yet he also may know that he is broken and cannot even receive such a simple truth. Spiritual meanings and effects do not simply run one way from God to men - but they also run from men to God. The Father sees that man's heart and one day He will answer his cries. 

Almost all the Pastors and Elders I know refuse to see that condition - overlooking that reality they almost always press the man to forgive without even acknowledging the offence - or else rebuke him if he shows the least anger and speaks out. And in churches that have thrown off any truly godly restraint he may be encouraged to join in the parade despite his condition of bitterness and a way is found to accommodate his condition and the man is eventually drawn into the same ill effect that grips his Pastor and the Elders so that his position is twice as bad as it was when he was stumbled by a harsh hand. 

Some believers are simply carnal and fleshy and don't want to live holy and godly lives. Other believers are bitter as described above and other believers are spiritually full of pride. The list can be almost endless - but every part of it has a reality that consists of all believers being beneficiaries of Christ' sacrifice of Himself for their sin - and their walk that either glorifies Him or else in the end puts Him to an open shame. In our time that condition is nearly full. So to answer your question is red above then prophetically I say that it is not nearly sufficient to express the truth of what God has done to provide us a way to walk by faith - and a way to escape by reasonable means. What God did to answer these things was laid down from the foundation of the Earth. And that meaning is altogether Christ crucified for sin and our death and resurrection in Him and only then when we have truly understood the Cross - do we find even a semblance of liberty to say what you have said in a time when the Cross is almost entirely refused because it speaks of an end to life and the grave. 

 

There is much in this to be profitable. As I am want to repeat over and over again--everything needs to bow to the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension. All doctrine needs to live there.

Thanks, brother.

[biblelesson]

On 9/16/2021 at 3:40 PM, Kelly2363 said:

I think you have misunderstood me clearly. And there seems to be no shortage of that on Internet forums. What I do know, however, as a fact of face to face life in the churches and in private with Pastors and Elders - and even occasionally with some brethren that are extremely gifted and have a good account to their ministries - this subject is misunderstood even when it is stated plainly. The reason for that seems to be essentially characterised in what you opened the thread with. Unless of course I have misunderstood you.

But if we take the element I have highlighted in red above then what could I say of that - seeing as you have asked me?

Well I would say that it sounds like the truth. And even in saying that the inflection already gives cause to be concerned that I am saying that it is a lie. That is the problem with spiritual meanings. A truth must be true as God reckons truth and as the Scripture proves its meaning - but truth must also be set in the reality of the experience of brethren in the churches - so that a sounds like the truth - may not in fact do any harm and neither might it be a lie. Whereas, it may in truth be well short of what is either needful or biblically true. And the measure of that is set in prophetic lines that cannot be easily explained.

So if for example you were in my church and you shared onetime and said precisely what you have said in red above - then it is likely that almost the entirety of the church would say Amen. Only a bitter person may stumble at it. And a bitter person may have good cause to be bitter because he may have been genuinely harmed in the church itself. So when he hears that which asserts a meaning that tells him that Jesus' blood covers his sins - or that He bore his sins in His own body - or that He was chastised for his iniquities - he may well remember that these things were once his and yet he also may know that he is broken and cannot even receive such a simple truth. Spiritual meanings and effects do not simply run one way from God to men - but they also run from men to God. The Father sees that man's heart and one day He will answer his cries. 

Almost all the Pastors and Elders I know refuse to see that condition - overlooking that reality they almost always press the man to forgive without even acknowledging the offence - or else rebuke him if he shows the least anger and speaks out. And in churches that have thrown off any truly godly restraint he may be encouraged to join in the parade despite his condition of bitterness and a way is found to accommodate his condition and the man is eventually drawn into the same ill effect that grips his Pastor and the Elders so that his position is twice as bad as it was when he was stumbled by a harsh hand. 

Some believers are simply carnal and fleshy and don't want to live holy and godly lives. Other believers are bitter as described above and other believers are spiritually full of pride. The list can be almost endless - but every part of it has a reality that consists of all believers being beneficiaries of Christ' sacrifice of Himself for their sin - and their walk that either glorifies Him or else in the end puts Him to an open shame. In our time that condition is nearly full. So to answer your question is red above then prophetically I say that it is not nearly sufficient to express the truth of what God has done to provide us a way to walk by faith - and a way to escape by reasonable means. What God did to answer these things was laid down from the foundation of the Earth. And that meaning is altogether Christ crucified for sin and our death and resurrection in Him and only then when we have truly understood the Cross - do we find even a semblance of liberty to say what you have said in a time when the Cross is almost entirely refused because it speaks of an end to life and the grave. 

 

I don't know if you see what you are doing, but this is what I'm getting from what you have written.

You seem to want to be in charge of these people, but because we don't have that right, meaning, we are not God, we can't make pastors like those you are referring to see that their actions are harmful to God's flock; because some have wrong motivations anyway.  God has already said there will be false prophets to deceived the people.  We can't make people live a godly life if they don't want to, and if they are dealing with something in the church that has caused their bitterness; that is way beyond your ability to fix.  We pray for them, offer support if they want support but we must be careful and try the spirits of people so that we don's become bitter too.    We have an adversary, Satan, that opposes God and is responsible for these confusion and rejecting God's word. 

What you don't recognize is you are the one turning a blind eye to God's word, while watching these people.  You are taking the pain of the situation and judging the word of God according to what you see in them, instead of seeing what the word of God is saying about the situation.

We are only required to follow the Gospel.  We are also responsible for serving God for the purpose of edifying the church, but it must be done according to how we are instructed to do so in the gospel.   We don't take it upon ourselves to be lord over people because we see they are not following God's word!  And what I said in my post is biblical, and if someone's pain and hurt causes them to not be able to accept God's word as it is written, or reject His word, then that's between that person and God.  God knows how to save his own.  

Edited September 18, 2021 by biblelesson

[Riverwalker]

17 hours ago, biblelesson said:

God does not punish us in our life under this current dispensation (New Covenant) because His Son took our punishment; Jesus died to cover the sins of the world and sin is blotted out in Christ, Colossians 2:14, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

 God is working today to gathering the souls of those who will be saved in Christ; and He is doing this through the Holy Spirit.   

Philippians 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”   So, It is God who Has begun a good work, and He is perfecting it in us, 1 Peter 5:10, “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

1 Corinthians 1:3-4, “Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort, who comforteth us in all our tribulations, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.  So, as we go through our tribulation and suffering and afterwards, we are to comfort others the way God comforts us.  But if we think we are being punished, how will God comfort us?

We will suffer tribulation, persecution, and difficult times, which is the process of the furnace of fire. When we find ourselves in the furnace, it’s a shock to the system, the psyche, and the heart.  Christians are place in situation they have never experience before, and of course will not have the knowledge and wisdom to help them maneuver in such situations.  God is aware that when He throws the Christian in the furnace of fire, that Christian is going to make many mistakes throughout their trial, and these mistakes are sins.   However, we are told to count it all joy.  So, what are we counting all joy while going through such trials that we don’t like, don’t know how to handle, don’t know what to do, is scarry, heart breaking, makes us angry, etc.?  What’s the joy of such a situation?  God’s grace is the joy.  God knowing the pain and suffering we will endure is working to make us “walk thou holy before Him.”  We are being made perfect for the Kingdom in Christ Jesus.
 
But because we really, really don’t understand, at first, we think that because our reactions of anger, strong words to others, bitterness, and other responses, which is what the trials are supposed to bring out, is wrong and sinful, and God is punishing us. We think, “I must have sinned, that’s why I’m dealing with this situation.”   But no, God is not punishing us.  Jesus was punished for us.  God is growing us to be able to STAND!  

When we think God is punishing us, we are making a mistake in judgment.  What’s happening is we are following the lies of the devil.  

There are two planes:

Plane 1

In Christ there is no sin because Christ has been made sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.   Therefore, God does not impute sin onto us, Romans 4:8.  In this present dispensation, God does not punish us, but allow us to go through trials for His purposes for our salvation.  But He is doing the work on us, and we will get through it.  

Plane 2

Satan is the one causing the grief, but God allows it like Job.  God uses it for good, but Satan uses it for bad.  Satan lies and tells us that we are going through our suffering because we committed a sin against God, and that we are being punished.  But this is a lie because Christ died for the sinner, and we are a reconciled to God in Christ.  

2 Corinthians 5:18, “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them…”

So, we are not being punished for our sins in this dispensation (New Covenant), we are being put through trials that are difficult, which provides an opportunity for Satan to lie to us, like he did with job by causing Job’s friends to make incorrect assessment of his situation causing more grief for him. 

The punishment will come in the end for those who do not accept Christ as their savior.  

 

The gift Of Jesus, is his love. 

And you cannot force this gift on anyone, you can only offer it. If they reject the gift of God's love all they have left is the terrible judgment of God

Jesus on the possibility of hell

Matthew 5:29

If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

1 Peter 4:

3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 

 

and Finally 

Revelation 20

The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Make no mistake God will judge those who have rejected His love in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  His judgment will be swift and it will be harsh

 

[Kelly2363]

1 hour ago, biblelesson said:

I don't know if you see what you are doing, but this is what I'm getting from what you have written.

You seem to want to be in charge of these people, but because we don't have that right, meaning, we are not God, we can't make pastors like those you are referring to see that their actions are harmful to God's flock; because some have wrong motivations anyway.  God has already said there will be false prophets to deceived the people.  We can't make people live a godly life if they don't want to, and if they are dealing with something in the church that has caused their bitterness; that is way beyond your ability to fix.  We pray for them, offer support if they want support but we must be careful and try the spirits of people so that we don's become bitter too.    We have an advocated, Satan, that opposes God and is responsible for these confusion and rejecting God's word. 

What you don't recognize is you are the one turning a blind eye to God's word, while watching these people.  You are taking the pain of the situation and judging the word of God according to what you see in them, in stead seeing what the word of God is saying about the situation.

We are only required to follow the Gospel.  We are also responsible for serving God for the purpose of edifying the church, but it must be done according to how we are instructed to do so in the gospel.   We don't take it upon ourselves to be lord over people because we see they are not following God's word!  And what I said in my post is biblical, and if someone's pain and hurt causes them to not be able to accept God's word as it is written, or reject His word, then that's between that person and God.  God knows how to save us.  But we don't allow ourselves to get bitter with people!

 

Well I can agree that we must [I must] not lord it over the flocks. We are all called brethren so as to reverse the order in the world which is the dominion that Satan presently rules over and to be children in the Kingdom that is a greater than the world and has an expanse that includes Christ Himself as the King to whom we are all bond servants - wherein the greatest shall be the least and the least shall be the greatest until He comes again in the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead wherein shall we be recompensed according to our service. But you must see that whist you are entirely free to speak your mind plainly with me at least - you cannot possibly know whether I lord it over anyone in the way you have said. 

You are right in another way, however, you sense from my words a meaning that leaves no room for escape for those who are called into the ministry of the Word and to Eldership and governance of the flocks who are abrogating their responsibilities - and you ought to sense that they will not escape because the Lord will complete that which He began is us - And where there is an obstacle to His will He will remove it. Judgement begins in the household of the Lord. We cannot escape. We will be held to account in this day. Go and weep for them and cry out for them because I bear witness in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that they will not escape. How the Lord will judge is a matter for the Lord - but judge He will do for His own names sake.

As for the wolves and the false prophets and the teachers of error they will be utterly destroyed and lain waste. to in our sight in those places where the Lord will establish a Lamp to the nations and a right path to the greatest harvest the world has ever seen. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Kelly2363
Spelling

[Waggles]

3 hours ago, biblelesson said:

Jesus covers our sins.  But our sinful nature is what God is working with!  God shows us ourselves through the sufferings, and then heals those areas that need healing to produce a Christ like faith and the Fruit of the Spirit in us. 

What do you think?

[biblelesson]

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi biblelesson, You have picked up on a somewhat distorted theology that constantly circulates in various forms. As a Christian I would be most concerned if God didn't correct and discipline me for getting out of line, and put obstacles

 

God is not disciplining us for getting out of line, God is sanctifying the saints; growing us up in Christ to became the first fruits unto Him and the Lamb as mentioned in Revelation 14:.4.  There are other places that mention the saints being the firstfruits unto God. We are to be holy and God being the Husbandman does the work on us through trials.   

Without these trials that produces fruit (Fruit of the Spirit), although very painful, we would not be able to stand before Him.   

13 hours ago, Michael37 said:

God judged and punished the wicked pre-flood inhabitants of earth, and also Israel for backsliding into spiritual fornication and idolatry.

I believe sin has consequences for all, even for the redeemed. Those who are really saved are led to repentance from sin by the chastisement of God. Hardened criminals who come to Christ in prison testify to this, as do many who have walked in darkness and been brought low before repenting.

From start to finish the Bible warns God's People that sin has consequences. In one sense Moses was "punished" by being refused entry to the Promised Land and David was "punished" by the loss of children and not being allowed to build the Temple.

Sin does has consequences, and Jesus had to pay the price for our sins.  He suffered for us because WE are sinners.  So that's the consequence we need to be clear about.  Not us, because whatever we do, we cannot please God because we are sinners.  Our sins have been covered by the blood of Christ.  When we deny what Christ did for us, and think we can please God through doing actions of good believing that makes us obedient, we deny the suffering Christ had to endure for US. Because we then are looking at what we do, and not what Christ did.  So, obedience is to follow the gospel message, the gospel of Christ which tells us that of ourselves we can do noting: our strength is in the Power of the Spirit of Christ. 

It is correct that salvation is for everyone who truly accept Christ as their savior, to include hardened criminals.  Every one who accepts Christ is drawn by the Father.   We don't even make that decision. John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Also, we are to look at the punishment that God handed out under the Old Testament (Old Covenant) under the Israelites as pointing to Christ.  The requirement for obedience was different then.  They were required to make multiple  sacrifices for sin, and honor yearly holy days, such as the day of atonement.  All of the those laws pointed to Christ, and when Christ died on that cross, He atoned for our sins and nailed the law to the cross.  So we are under the New Covenant under Christ and are saved by the gospel of Christ.  

 

So my original post was about sin not being imputed unto us under this dispensation (new covenant), and the trials we go through are not because we have committed a sin, but that God is dealing with our sin nature to grow us up into the likeness of Christ. 

[Waggles]

James 1:2  Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into manifold temptations; 
3  knowing that the proving of your faith worketh patience. 
4  But let patience have perfect work, that ye be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing. 

[Waggles]

1Peter 1:3  Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 
4  unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you, 
5  who by God’s power are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last season. 
6  Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while if need be, put to grief in manifold trials, 
7  that the proving of your faith, more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, be found unto praise and glory and honour at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 
8  whom not seeing ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and glorified: 
9  receiving the end of the faith, salvation of souls. 

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, biblelesson said:

God is not disciplining us for getting out of line, God is sanctifying the saints; growing us up in Christ to became the first fruits unto Him and the Lamb as mentioned in Revelation 14:.4.  There are other places that mention the saints being the firstfruits unto God. We are to be holy and God being the Husbandman does the work on us through trials.   

Without these trials that produces fruit (Fruit of the Spirit), although very painful, we would not be able to stand before Him.   

Sin does has consequences, and Jesus had to pay the price for our sins.  He suffered for us because WE are sinners.  So that's the consequence we need to be clear about.  Not us, because whatever we do, we cannot please God because we are sinners.  Our sins have been covered by the blood of Christ.  When we deny what Christ did for us, and think we can please God through doing actions of good believing that makes us obedient, we deny the suffering Christ had to endure for US. Because we then are looking at what we do, and not what Christ did.  So, obedience is to follow the gospel message, the gospel of Christ which tells us that of ourselves we can do noting: our strength is in the Power of the Spirit of Christ. 

It is correct that salvation is for everyone who truly accept Christ as their savior, to include hardened criminals.  Every one who accepts Christ is drawn by the Father.   We don't even make that decision. John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Also, we are to look at the punishment that God handed out under the Old Testament (Old Covenant) under the Israelites as pointing to Christ.  The requirement for obedience was different then.  They were required to make multiple  sacrifices for sin, and honor yearly holy days, such as the day of atonement.  All of the those laws pointed to Christ, and when Christ died on that cross, He atoned for our sins and nailed the law to the cross.  So we are under the New Covenant under Christ and are saved by the gospel of Christ.  

 

So my original post was about sin not being imputed unto us under this dispensation (new covenant), and the trials we go through are not because we have committed a sin, but that God is dealing with our sin nature to grow us up into the likeness of Christ. 

My personal experience is of punishment which I know absolutely, unquestionably in my heart and mind, came from God, but not for my destruction or damnation . . . quite the opposite, but punishment nevertheless, which I still live with, Hallelujah.

If anyone thinks this is not Biblical I simply refer them to the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

(Mat 18:32)  Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
(Mat 18:33)  Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
(Mat 18:34)  And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
(Mat 18:35)  "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

[Waggles]

John 15:1  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 
2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every one that beareth fruit, he pruneth it, that it bear more fruit. 
3  Already YE are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. 
4  Abide in me, and I in you. Even as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine; thus neither ye, unless ye abide in me. 
5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: Who abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. 
6  Unless one abide in me, he is cast forth as the branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.