watchman Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 15 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 66 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 69 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 DeighAnn, I think you are making this far too complicated. A lot of times in Scripture, human descriptive words are used to help us mere mortals to have understanding of God and His plan for the redemption of mankind. Jesus used the phrase "Son of Man" Himself. Jesus knew who He was and the mission the Father had given Him. I will try to make this short with just a few verses: Mat 9:4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? Mat 9:5 For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? Mat 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—he then said to the paralytic—"Rise, pick up your bed and go home." Jesus' question in verse 5 was rhetorical. His critics believed it was easier to say, "Get up and walk," because only God can forgive sins. Jesus had claimed to do the more difficult thing from their viewpoint, namely, to forgive sins. Jesus responded ironically in verse 6. He would do the easier thing. From the scribes' perspective, since Jesus had blasphemed God, He could not heal the paralytic, since God does not respond to sinners (Joh 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him). By healing the paralytic, Jesus showed that He had not blasphemed God. He could indeed forgive sins. Jesus again used the term "Son of Man" for Himself (v. 6). His critics should have sensed the messianic claim that Jesus' use of this title implied, since they knew the Old Testament well. The Judge had come to earth with authority to forgive sins (cf. 1:21, 23). This goes all the way back to the Garden when Eve, and then Adam, did the only thing God had forbidden. Eve was deceived or beguiled by Satan to follow 'his' instructions rather than God's. Adam, knowing fully well what God had instructed, ate of the forbidden fruit. Because of this act, the sin nature that every human is born with, is transmitted to all future generations by means of man and not the woman. Satan, in his desire to thwart the will of God, figured he had accomplished his goal since Adam and Eve gave the authority that God had given them, over to Satan. It is an act of futility for any being to think they can "get over on God!" The virgin birth was necessary in order to prevent the sin 'nature' from being passed to the person of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah. The response of the observing crowd was appropriate in view of Jesus' action. People should respect and admire the One who can forgive sins. Here was a manifestation of God before them. They "glorified God" because they saw a man exercising divine authority. Unfortunately they failed to perceive that Jesus was their divine Messiah. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 We may be talking at cross purposes here. In the biblical eras, it was man that planted the seed and the woman 'grew it'. There was no concept of male infertility. If the man planted it, then if she did not produce a child it was her 'fault'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 43 minutes ago, Josheb said: Maybe I'm missing something but who is saying anything anywhere about "fault" or "blame"? This all seems very non sequitur to me. There's only nine posters weighing so far and only one has mentioned blame and that mention appears to be unrelated to anything anyone has posted and rhetorical. If my observation is correct then fault and blame are red herrings and should not be given credence. No one is blaming any woman for anything. Sorry, I did not make myself clear. I was not assigning blame but rather UNDERSTANDING of the role of a woman back then. We are 'modern' and do not understand the mindset or local beliefs of those times. We cannot read scriptures and unconsciously and indirectly impose our current knowhow of cause and effect back then. Back then, the woman was the 'garden' and the man the seed planter. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 On 10/22/2021 at 6:51 PM, LearningToLetGo said: Sounds like you're wishing we had some way to DNA test Jesus to see what's what. That's a modern POV. Does it really matter if Jesus was or was not genetically the son of Mary? Would that knowledge change anything? If Mary is not the mother of Jesus then Jesus is not a human from the house of David. Because he did not have a Father from the house of David , and not Mary as his mother. Then he cannot be a brother. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 (edited) On 10/22/2021 at 6:58 PM, missmuffet said: Jesus Christ was conceived by God. First of all is not what the scriptures say, scriptures that are known to you from your youth that say a young maiden from the house of David shall conceive and bear a son ...but also that Mary is identify by the Angel Gabriel ( and I will make this very heavy by) the Angel Gabriel who stands in the presence of God. And from the knowledge that God made it that way and it is straight forwards that the woman conceives and the one who conceive the woman is the one to have a miscarriage and also the one who after carrying the fetus for the full gestation period of nine months she gives birth. Edited October 24, 2021 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.64 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 24, 2021 13 hours ago, watchman said: Because of this act, the sin nature that every human is born with, is transmitted to all future generations by means of man and not the woman. Thank you for your response. The sin nature and all the 'temptations' that come of it, are all born of woman no matter who is the cause of at fault But this 'nature' is not a spot or a blemish, those come from actions which Christ never did. That is how He could be tempted in all things like us, but remain without sin. Flesh only becomes sinful when one commits sin. We know there was human flesh because of the verse that speaks to it not seeing corruption We know that God IS the Father of Jesus and so Jesus is the Son of God BUT the problem is words written that make it sound like GOD is ALSO the Mother of Jesus and Mary is the 'surrogate' that carried Him and bear Him but DID NOT CONCEIVE HIM. How without Mary conceiving does 'MAN' come about in the equation? What I get back in return is speculation about what it means to be perfect and without blemish, impeccable and what that MUST MEAN ...(thoughts of man) AND YOU WILL CONCEIVE AND BEAR, inconvient so just change the meaning of conceive here to something else even though the subject is... and is linked with Elizabeths, which if Mary is not the Mother certainly shouldn't be (cause that would cause confusion) Conceive and bear, not acquire and bear, not have placed within and bear, not will be hosting and bear and raise. It takes a mother and father to have a son. Short of that is a clone. Mary, the Mother of Jesus is the only way Jesus can be called the 'Son of Man'. The first Adam was of the 'dust of the earth' the second 'of the womb'. Without Mary contributing there is NO MAN in Christs makeup. And again, if egg tainted as to cause sin then feeding off it the same. If childbirth sinful then being birthed would create same sin as what is trying to take away Marys motherhood. BUT you have your beliefs and I have mine and all will be brought into the light...so we shall see. D 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 On 10/23/2021 at 12:12 AM, DeighAnn said: IF Mary is not the Mother of Christ, then it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR Christ to be the SON OF MAN This is why Jesus called him self the Son of Man...because he had God, the Heavenly Father as his Father and had Mary as his mother. The only combination to make him the Mediator between God and Man. Someone who can stand in the presence of God and can be from the human race from the house of David, from the chosen seed of Abraham to Issac to Jacob to David, the Royal seed and because he can stand in the presence of God the Heavenly Father a Priest out of the order of the Levitical Priesthood, who never could stand in the presence of the Heavenly Father, they only stand in the presence of the Lord their God.. This is why Jesus Christ came to open the way to the Heavenly Father, not to the Lord God of the Jews. Because he was the Lord God of the Jews before he left everything to be born to enter our world as a man through Mary. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter and Deborah Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 14 Topic Count: 2,241 Topics Per Day: 0.50 Content Count: 4,366 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,030 Days Won: 3 Joined: 01/13/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1947 Share Posted October 24, 2021 (edited) On 10/22/2021 at 3:36 PM, DeighAnn said: Judges 13:3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. Judges 13:4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: Judges 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. Judges 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name: Judges 13:7 But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death. Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Hi DeighAnn, These scriptures are correct. also, Luke 1:26-38 Christ’s Birth Announced to Mary 26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; [a]blessed are you among women!” 29 But [b]when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” 34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I [c]do not know a man?” 35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.” 38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. LOL, Walter and Debbie Edited October 24, 2021 by Walter and Deborah More info. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,853 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 (edited) On 10/22/2021 at 6:58 PM, missmuffet said: Jesus Christ was conceived by God. This is an erroneous statement contrary to the words of the scriptures. In Isaiah 7:14,15, and 16 at the least * Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings * and Isaiah 9:6,7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. * and in the words of the Archangel Gabriel who stands in the presence of God in the Gospel of Luke 1:19 * And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. Luke : 26,27 * 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And Luke 30, 31 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. Edited October 24, 2021 by Your closest friendnt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted October 24, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2021 31 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: This is an erroneous statement contrary to the words of the scriptures. In Isaiah 7:14,15, and 16 at the least * Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings * and Isaiah 9:6,7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. * and in the words of the Archangel Gabriel who stands in the presence of God in the Gospel of Luke 1:19 * And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. Luke : 26,27 * 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And Luke 30, 31 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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