Who is the Little Horn of Daniel 8? Can this be linked with the Little Horn in Daniel 7?

[truth7t7]

On 12/13/2021 at 3:10 AM, adamjedgar said:

I don't see islam working. The final power has to come out of the iron kingdom...it's clear from history that Rome followed Greece. This is an historically proven fact...it must be the correct interpretation.

So, that means the little horn must rise out of the Roman Empire to fit the imagery in the vision

A quick observation...an antichrist is a "wolf in sheep's clothing"...a pretender. 

Islam does not pretend to be Christian...they do not believe in Jesus as Mighty God. Islam I think see their own version of the Abrahamic narrative.. their own version of the chosen people. There is no trickery going on there...it's plainly obvious and not a particularly good effort at deceiving using antichrist (imho).

So this leaves a dilemma...how would a "wolf in sheep's clothing" come out of the Roman Empire?

There is an important characteristic about Greece and particularly Rome, they realised that in order to maintain control, both state and religion were vital...this is how the Papacy got its power, the combining of a pagan state with the christian church...what better way to achieve the "wolf in sheep's clothing" goals than to corrupt the messiahs own message from within his own group of followers...the future Judaces! 

If we look back in history, we hear the term "dark ages". What happened during this time and who was at the helm? Terrible oppression and persecution at the hands of "the church" with the power and blessing of the state...so much so, the pope was like God on earth...he ruled his roost and influenced monarchies everywhere...just look at the crusades! Heretics were killed by the hundreds, thousands...some say millions died at the hand of religious zealots.

This sort of record fits the prophetic writings I think better than Islam...the wolf in sheep's clothing came from Christianity itself!

Many churches claim the "wolf in sheep's clothing" to be manifested through the Roman Catholic Church.

I don't like to point the finger at denominations...I would really prefer a different interpretation...but I honestly think history is against me on this one.

 

Scripture is very clear, Daniel's (Little Horn) is the very same bad guy as John's (The Beast)

The (Little Horn) will be present on earth to see the future second coming of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as his living body is given to the burning flame

Daniel 7:9-11KJV

⁹ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

¹⁰ A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

¹¹ I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Revelation 19:19-20 is the very same event as Daniel 7:9-11 above, "Future" unfulfilled

Revelation 19:19-20KJV

¹⁹ And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

²⁰ And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

On 12/13/2021 at 3:10 AM, adamjedgar said:

I don't see islam working. The final power has to come out of the iron kingdom...it's clear from history that Rome followed Greece. This is an historically proven fact...it must be the correct interpretation.

So, that means the little horn must rise out of the Roman Empire to fit the imagery in the vision

A quick observation...an antichrist is a "wolf in sheep's clothing"...a pretender. 

Islam does not pretend to be Christian...they do not believe in Jesus as Mighty God. Islam I think see their own version of the Abrahamic narrative.. their own version of the chosen people. There is no trickery going on there...it's plainly obvious and not a particularly good effort at deceiving using antichrist (imho).

So this leaves a dilemma...how would a "wolf in sheep's clothing" come out of the Roman Empire?

There is an important characteristic about Greece and particularly Rome, they realised that in order to maintain control, both state and religion were vital...this is how the Papacy got its power, the combining of a pagan state with the christian church...what better way to achieve the "wolf in sheep's clothing" goals than to corrupt the messiahs own message from within his own group of followers...the future Judaces! 

If we look back in history, we hear the term "dark ages". What happened during this time and who was at the helm? Terrible oppression and persecution at the hands of "the church" with the power and blessing of the state...so much so, the pope was like God on earth...he ruled his roost and influenced monarchies everywhere...just look at the crusades! Heretics were killed by the hundreds, thousands...some say millions died at the hand of religious zealots.

This sort of record fits the prophetic writings I think better than Islam...the wolf in sheep's clothing came from Christianity itself!

Many churches claim the "wolf in sheep's clothing" to be manifested through the Roman Catholic Church.

I don't like to point the finger at denominations...I would really prefer a different interpretation...but I honestly think history is against me on this one.

 

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

[Charlie744]

7 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

The Future Human Man, The Antichrist Seen Below In (Daniel) 11:37 Will Be A Hebrew/Jew In Decent, His Fathers Worshipped The True Hebrew (God Of His Fathers)

(Daniel) 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Examples: God Of His Fathers

(2 Kings) 21:22KJV
22 And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord.

(2 Chronicles) 21:10KJV
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers.

Is the beast of Daniel 7 the beast of Revelation? I have read Daniel not Revelation.

Is the little horn of Daniel 8 the A/C or is the A/C a new actor that arrives near the end times? 

Do you believe the little horn is the papacy (which of course means it is not one person but there will be many rulers / popes of the papacy until the end times?

It is clear that Greece is the 3rd kingdom. Does the fact that it was broken up into 4 separate territories prior to its conquest by pagan Rome change the fact they were still 'Grecian'?  If they were broken up into 2 or even 8 separate territories, would that change the fact they would still 'fit' within the belly / thighs of the 3rd kingdom (bronze kingdom)? 

I the 2nd kingdom of the Medes-Persians, the 70 year punishment period ended when Cyrus issued his decree to allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem. However, after Cyrus there were a few kings that continued running Persian with one being the strongest - either Xerxes or Antixerses  (something like that), but they were destroyed by Greece / Alexander --- they, like the 4 generals post Alexander stayed in 'their lane', if you will (they were still considered within the silver section of the metal man image. 

Do you agree the only kingdom that conquered Greece was pagan Rome - regardless of how many or how long those OTHER Greek generals reigned WITHIN the Greek empire period?

I have not studied it but I don't believe any Greeks were known for iron.. that is a Roman thing. Consequently, God identifies Rome 4th kingdom with iron, agree?

Greece as a kingdom certainly came to an end when pagan Rome conquered them. But even pagan Rome ended around the beginning of the 6th century -but it morphed into the papal Roman empire which continues to this very day and will continue so until the end of days. It will be the LAST / FINAL kingdom of the metal man image. 

These are just a small sample of questions or comments regarding the identification of the 4th kingdom. However, because of the confusion and difficulty interpreting these later chapters in Daniel and the way they have been presented, they definitely create interpretation concerns. Which is exactly why God started with the basics, if you will, and color coded each of the 4 kingdoms for us to identify. The additional animal images in 7 and 8 provide further opportunity to identify the kingdoms of the metal man image and reveals some further activities they will be known for - this is to add an element of time to the metal man image and also reveal their mindset (the metal man image is static and does not reveal their character).

Just some things to think about and discuss. (perhaps). But if it is not found in chapter 2, you can not add to it in chapter 7 or 8 (characters or kingdoms).

Not sure unless I go back over it again, but I believe the only issue folks attempt to connect the 4 generals (and AE, Seleucids, the Ptolemy's, etc.) as the 4th kingdom is because of the comment 'four notable ones', AND they believe the horn comes from ONE OF THEM as opposed to come from ONE OF THE FOUR WINDS.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Is the beast of Daniel 7 the beast of Revelation? I have read Daniel not Revelation.

Is the little horn of Daniel 8 the A/C or is the A/C a new actor that arrives near the end times? 

Do you believe the little horn is the papacy (which of course means it is not one person but there will be many rulers / popes of the papacy until the end times?

It is clear that Greece is the 3rd kingdom. Does the fact that it was broken up into 4 separate territories prior to its conquest by pagan Rome change the fact they were still 'Grecian'?  If they were broken up into 2 or even 8 separate territories, would that change the fact they would still 'fit' within the belly / thighs of the 3rd kingdom (bronze kingdom)? 

I the 2nd kingdom of the Medes-Persians, the 70 year punishment period ended when Cyrus issued his decree to allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem. However, after Cyrus there were a few kings that continued running Persian with one being the strongest - either Xerxes or Antixerses  (something like that), but they were destroyed by Greece / Alexander --- they, like the 4 generals post Alexander stayed in 'their lane', if you will (they were still considered within the silver section of the metal man image. 

Do you agree the only kingdom that conquered Greece was pagan Rome - regardless of how many or how long those OTHER Greek generals reigned WITHIN the Greek empire period?

I have not studied it but I don't believe any Greeks were known for iron.. that is a Roman thing. Consequently, God identifies Rome 4th kingdom with iron, agree?

Greece as a kingdom certainly came to an end when pagan Rome conquered them. But even pagan Rome ended around the beginning of the 6th century -but it morphed into the papal Roman empire which continues to this very day and will continue so until the end of days. It will be the LAST / FINAL kingdom of the metal man image. 

These are just a small sample of questions or comments regarding the identification of the 4th kingdom. However, because of the confusion and difficulty interpreting these later chapters in Daniel and the way they have been presented, they definitely create interpretation concerns. Which is exactly why God started with the basics, if you will, and color coded each of the 4 kingdoms for us to identify. The additional animal images in 7 and 8 provide further opportunity to identify the kingdoms of the metal man image and reveals some further activities they will be known for - this is to add an element of time to the metal man image and also reveal their mindset (the metal man image is static and does not reveal their character).

Just some things to think about and discuss. (perhaps). But if it is not found in chapter 2, you can not add to it in chapter 7 or 8 (characters or kingdoms).

Not sure unless I go back over it again, but I believe the only issue folks attempt to connect the 4 generals (and AE, Seleucids, the Ptolemy's, etc.) as the 4th kingdom is because of the comment 'four notable ones', AND they believe the horn comes from ONE OF THEM as opposed to come from ONE OF THE FOUR WINDS.

Thanks for the response Charlie, I dont agree with the reformed historicist view

As my post above clearly describes, yes I believe the (Little Horn) in Daniel 7 is (The Beast) in Revelation 13

Charlie I believe the bad guy is the very same charachter in Daniel chapters 7,8,9,11 its just a repeated vision/story, same bad guy

You will closely note that all chapters denote it's at the end when the bad guy hits the scene

Charlie I believe scripture clearly teaches "Jerusalem" is Mystery Babylon The Great, Mother Of Harlots as seen in Revelation 17, not Rome as many teach and believe

As posted I believe scripture clearly teaches this future bad guy will be a King/Ruler of Jewish/Hebrew decent

Hope that helps, that's my observation of scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited December 15, 2021 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I have with great interest read these 7 pages and I find it interesting that all the responders repeat the same, well, what I call a mistake. I'm not sure how far back this goes.....I'm guessing maybe a century or more. I'm only guessing as I really don't know.

It all has to do with Alexander the Great and what followed after his death.

I think that everyone here mentioned, all follow thru with the story (I can't call it a fact, though there are some who do) that after his death, his kingdom was divided into 4....Dan 8:8

After Alexanders death, there were about two dozen generals and mercenaries battling for control. This eventually, after some 50 years, 3 main dynasties emerged.... though even here, there is some discrepancy as to who they were. 

And thousands of satrapies. All consolidated over time into the 4 main regions of control. And there are clearly 4. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Scripture says, in Daniel 8:8..... "that the goat magnified himself  exceedingly, but as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken, and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven"

So the question (s).... 

What sort of time frame is allotted to the coming up of four horns? Is it right away?

It's the idea of who and where they ruled after the dust settled and the smoke cleared. We aren't given a time frame as to when the 4 would emerge as the top dogs or how long the particular General would reign, or the length of the dynasty; the important aspect is the division of the kingdom of Alexander. Accomplished as prophesied.

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Since the results of the wars between all his generals.....there were only 3 conspicuous (notable) dynasties that remained for a considerable length of time, (150 years) how does this work with scripture that states there were four? Does a fourth for a very short time count? Are not the final 3 the most significant since they remained for a century and a half?

What's significant is their existence as that is what was prophesied. And it seems to me they all still remain. It's significant Alexander's kingdom was divided into 4 prominent regions, more so than who may have ruled those regions or for how long. 

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

How does all this work with the interpretation by the Angel Gabriel in Dan 8:17-19, where Gabriel say THREE TIMES.... "The vision pertains to the time of the end, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end"....THREE TIMES he states it's at the time of the end?????????

Why is this interpretation by Gabriel ignored?

It's not ignored by me. It's profoundly intriguing those four regions, kingdoms, remain to this day as prophesied. If Gabriel said it was four then it was four; no matter what 1000 books by 100 historians say to attempt to make alterations.

Since Gabriel's words are the standard here and he said four, then four it is. The prominent ones after all the shooting ended were Cassander, Ptolemy, Antigonus and Seleucid ruling Greece, Egypt, Asia Minor and Mesopotamia, respectively.

5 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 I have more questions, but this will do for now.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Diaste

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

I think there is a major issue here. Nowhere does the ‘little horn’ arise OUT of the 4 horns, and secondly, there are no 4 horns within Greece (there is only ONE great horn that represents Alexander). 

 

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place,

The large or great horn was broken and four horns emerged and come up in its place. The KJV says, 'notable ones', but the understanding is 4 prominent horns, as here the horns represent power and kingdoms. This is consistent with the image of both the goat and the ram with the two horns of the ram representing the dual rulership of the Medes and Persians.

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

"So here the vision says a little horn emerged, and it's from one of the four from verse 8. The great horn of the goat to the little horn, and the four in between the breaking of the great horn and the emergence of the little horn. All horns, all from the Alexander's kingdom and the little horn from one of the four horns.

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Four notable ones are not four horns... and verse 9 is ‘from one of ‘them’ came came a ‘little horn’. 

Most translations say four horns. 

 

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Four ‘notable ones’ came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came the little horn... 

The little horn did not come from out of the ‘four notable ones’, but he came out of the ‘four winds’.

It's the same thing really. The notable horns went toward the four winds. This is saying four kingdoms will rise from the fall of Alexander in four directions. It's the prominent ones which is the focus and the winds are the directions in which they will rule. This is borne out by history as Cassander went west, Antigonus north, Ptolemy south, and Seleucid east.

 

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Alexander ‘s Kingdom was the one horn which was broken into 4 territories (not kingdoms) and given or taken by the 4 generals. None of which were anything but ‘notable’. They had no relationship with chapter 2- metal type, two legged (conquered the world and would stamp and crush their foes, Rome was brutal. And in a physical or natural view, as they ‘stamped and crushed’ their way among the nations, their feet would not and could not stand the punishment- they began to crack and break down - this meant they would have to bring into their empire the pagans - those they conquered to help control their borders. 

They clearly had a relationship. The bronze of the statue is Alexander and the 4 main regions of control after his fall were all contained in the territory of Alexander the Great. The 4 main regions are still the bronze of the statues belly and thighs.

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

They will not have the same power... 

And they did not. They warred against and with each other. There was no world dominating vision anymore. The charisma of Alexander was gone.

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Again, the interpretations of chapter 8 cannot contradict chapter 2. Greece as a ‘kingdom’ (the 3rd kingdom) regardless of how it ended after the one horn (Alexander) died did end. There is a complete change in metal type, military methods, etc., that identified a new 4th kingdom. Pagan Rome was that 4th kingdom and would continue until they deteriorated and became too weak as they spread out over the world. This became the opportunity for the papal church to gain control and power from pagan Rome. The little horn is the head of this power and must continue to the end of days (which it is certainly doing). 

Not Rome. I know you want that but it's a dispensational doctrine that just doesn't fit with scripture.

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Out OF the beast came the 10 horns meaning that they already in existence- in chapter 2 they were the 10 toes. But they came out of the beast or they came to the surface and made themselves known. THEN, ANOTHER little horn came forth that was completely different than the 10. 

The little horn did rise from 10 and take out three as it is written. But this cannot contradict, overshadow, or cancel the other visions which are also true.

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Chapter 8 shows us what happens to these 3 parts of the 4th kingdom- a ‘Stone’ strikes them and breaks apart the iron and the clay into separate components. In chapter 8 this is now seen as a ‘beast’ (all the peoples and nations conquered by pagan Rome meshed together but initially still ruled by pagan Rome). But the 10 toes rise to the surface. Also a completely new power (little horn) comes to the surface AFTER the 10. 

 

Not Rome. Rome is a distraction. Rome is dead. Alexander's divided kingdom is still here. Just as it is written.

 

[Charlie744]

47 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Thanks for the response Charlie, I dont agree with the reformed historicist view

As my post above clearly describes, yes I believe the (Little Horn) in Daniel 7 is (The Beast) in Revelation 13

Charlie I believe the bad guy is the very same charachter in Daniel chapters 7,8,9,11 its just a repeated vision/story, same bad guy

You will closely note that all chapters denote it's at the end when the bad guy hits the scene

Charlie I believe scripture clearly teaches "Jerusalem" is Mystery Babylon The Great, Mother Of Harlots as seen in Revelation 17, not Rome as many teach and believe

As posted I believe scripture clearly teaches this future bad guy will be a King/Ruler of Jewish/Hebrew decent

Hope that helps, that's my observation of scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

The problem with my previous post is there are just too many questions or issues to consider. 

Perhaps we might take one at a time?

In 7 we find 3 actors in the 4th kingdom 1) beast, 2) 10 horns, 3) little horn.

The original 4th kingdom (legs of iron) was pagan Rome. 

The feet of iron and clay was a combination of pagan Rome and other non-Roman folks ruled by pagan Rome. 

The 10 toes became the 10 horns.

The ‘Stone’ that hit the feet would break apart the iron and clay feet into its separate components. 

Leaving the 3 actors in 7. 

So, the little horn and the beast are not the same and if they are not, then do both continue on until the end of days?

My response would be yes- the little horn is the papacy and the beast is the secular side of things that worships material things and has no concern for anything God. 

What do you think?

 Thanks, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 

Thus the goat became very great, but at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place,

The large or great horn was broken and four horns emerged and come up in its place. The KJV says, 'notable ones', but the understanding is 4 prominent horns, as here the horns represent power and kingdoms. This is consistent with the image of both the goat and the ram with the two horns of the ram representing the dual rulership of the Medes and Persians.

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

"So here the vision says a little horn emerged, and it's from one of the four from verse 8. The great horn of the goat to the little horn, and the four in between the breaking of the great horn and the emergence of the little horn. All horns, all from the Alexander's kingdom and the little horn from one of the four horns.

Most translations say four horns. 

 

It's the same thing really. The notable horns went toward the four winds. This is saying four kingdoms will rise from the fall of Alexander in four directions. It's the prominent ones which is the focus and the winds are the directions in which they will rule. This is borne out by history as Cassander went west, Antigonus north, Ptolemy south, and Seleucid east.

 

They clearly had a relationship. The bronze of the statue is Alexander and the 4 main regions of control after his fall were all contained in the territory of Alexander the Great. The 4 main regions are still the bronze of the statues belly and thighs.

And they did not. They warred against and with each other. There was no world dominating vision anymore. The charisma of Alexander was gone.

Not Rome. I know you want that but it's a dispensational doctrine that just doesn't fit with scripture.

The little horn did rise from 10 and take out three as it is written. But this cannot contradict, overshadow, or cancel the other visions which are also true.

Not Rome. Rome is a distraction. Rome is dead. Alexander's divided kingdom is still here. Just as it is written.

 

We are at different ends of the spectrum on all the above. But that is okay. I will try and respond to all or most of this in the AM. However, I would respectfully ask if you would study the term ‘horns’. They are not interchangeable with ‘notable ones’. And the little horn did not come out of the 10- he was very different than the other 10, for he had eyes, etc., the little horn is a man (papacy). The 10 horns are powers not a man. 

Thanks, Charlie 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The ‘Stone’ that hit the feet would break apart the iron and clay feet into its separate components. 

And that statute would surely fall down.  

[DeighAnn]

On 12/13/2021 at 2:33 AM, Diaste said:

Why?

If this 'one is' is true it would be either Nero or Domitian depending on when the book was written; 65 AD or 95 AD. That would mean the 7th and 8th would have come long ago and Jesus would also have returned long ago.

I just don't think Rev 17:10 is past, present and future in the space of sentence fragment. 

The whole of Revelation has to happen in either 7 years or 3.5 years. If it's true that 'one is' is Nero or Domitian, then it's all long over including the Millennium, and this is a new earth under a new heaven.

I only see 4 kingdoms. Daniel says, "Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom" Finally... the end. No more kingdoms. The Iron Kingdom is the 4th and that's it. Just the 4. Not 5 or 6 or 8. Four. The Iron Kingdom comes into existence then it wanes or is reconstituted with flaws or mixed with incompatible elements like people, ideology, etc. Just like Daniel says in 2:41-43.

But it never goes away. It crushes the other three but itself endures till the end. This isn't Rome as Rome is dead and gone. 

And if the feet and toes have iron in them then the legs of iron and the iron in the feet should be the same kingdom. 

And if this Iron kingdom was to crush all the others, Islam fits this much better than Rome. Islam swept all across Mesopotamia, across Northern Africa, into Asia Minor and across Southern Europe into Spain; taking over the realms previously held by the Precious Metal Kingdoms. Even Rome retreated from the Parthians and so did not hold Seleucid territory except for the Levant. 

Islam is also the major religion in Mesopotamia, Turkey and Egypt with Greece being mostly Orthodox.

 

OK.  I don't know.  I think it has to do with Mount Moriah anyhow so I am not even in the running.  I was just asking to have what I had written corrected by being  written in the same way so that I could understand.  It hasn't so I still don't.  Anyway, I think there are enough people in this conversation and to be perfectly honest, I have no calling here (as of yet) so I am just going to politely bow out and wish you all good luck.    d