1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Trib Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Hello this is Gary...Kind of just got back on discussion boards and wanted to go over some elements about this topic.

One main point of misunderstanding is about how to reconcile the resurrection in Daniel 12:2 and the other statement in Rev. 20:5 that the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.

Its not like we can make scripture fight against itself and one persons clings to one scripture while another clings to a different one...they are all inspired and Daniel 12:2 is just as inspired as Rev. 20:5 but it needs to be understood.

Pre Trib advocates there is no resurrection of the wicked dead until the 1000 years are finished, and in trying to establish this they end up overlooking many scriptures that show both the wicked and righteous dead are resurrected and judged at the Second Coming.

The thing to realize is this resurrection that happens at the second coming consists of all humanity, good and bad, from the time of Adam until the Second Coming. 

John 5:28-29 states 'the hour cometh when all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...they that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation."

Because of misunderstanding Rev. 20:5 that the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, they feel they must insert a gap of time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous.

It also happens with Daniel 12:2...Because of misunderstanding Rev. 20:5 they again feel they need to insert a gap of time between the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous.

Dan. 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

The Tregelles translation distorts the text to almost being unrecognizable to insert a resurrection for the righteous to happen at one time and another resurrection for the wicked at another time. It reads:

 "And many from among the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake. These (that awake) shall be unto everlasting life.  But those (the rest of the sleepers who awake later) shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt." 

We also have the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13. Both grow together until the harvest..the harvest is defined by Jesus as being the end of THIS age, not the end of the NEXT age. He says the tares are gathered and burned at the same time wheat are gathered into the barn. It would be very misleading if Jesus really knew the wicked were not going to be resurrected and judged until the end of the 1000 years to say they would be judged and cast into the fire at the end of this age.

We also see the same analogy when Jesus talked about the 10 talents in Matthew 25:14- " For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods...he gave such and such to one and such and such to another and straightway took his journey. After he left those who he had given the talents to traded with them but he 'that had received the one talent went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.' 

Then, after a long time the Lord of those servants cometh and reckons with them. The Lord traveling into a far country is depicting Jesus going away into heaven but when it says 'and after a long time, the lord of those servants COMES, he is referencing the Second Coming. But when he comes, he does not just deal with all the righteous servants, he also deals with the wicked and slothful servant.               

The wicked servant is not in the same category as the righteous. Jesus is not just dealing with different rewards for the righteous...he says to the unfaithful servant 'Thou wicked and slothful servant...' and then says 'cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Casting the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is not the same as 'well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of the Lord. The judgment of being cast into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth is the judgment of the wicked, but this is not happening at the end of the 1000 years, this happens 'when the Lord of those servants COMES, not 1000 years after he comes.

You can see they are both dealt with at the same time when it says, And after a long time, the Lord of those servants comes and reckons with THEM, not just with the good and faithful servants. The context is, he deals with one servant and rewards him, then with another servant and rewards him, then in the same time frame he deals with the wicked and slothful servant. But here again, people misunderstand Rev. 20:5 so they think they have to insert an artificial time gap when none is present in the text.

He then proceeds on to the sheep and goat judgment where we see the same analogy. Both the sheep and the goats are there WHEN he comes, not the sheep are there when he comes and the goats are there 1000 years after he comes...No. Both are present at the same time. So here is the quote:

   "WHEN the son of man shall come in his glory (Second Coming) and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory."

So he is no longer in heaven, he has now descended from Heaven and is now sitting on the throne of his glory ON THE EARTH.  And who is gathered before him? ALL people, or all nations, in other words EVERYBODY is before him, both good and bad, both sheep and goats. The goats are there just as the sheep are there. They got here because of what he had already stated in John 5:28 that the hour would come that ALL that were in the graves would hear his voice and would come forth...this is that hour. These sheep and goats are here before the judge and this is the Day of Judgment...the is the Judgment seat of Christ Paul wrote about. As he said, it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

This is the same judgment in Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the ANCIENT OF DAYS DID SIT....(This is Jesus when he comes to the earth and SITS upon the throne of his glory) a fiery stream  issued and came forth from before him; ...ten thousand times ten thousands stood before him; the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

But you can see the goats have been resurrected as well as the sheep and now they are all before him...not sheep at the Second coming, and goats 1000 years later, BOTH are being judged and rewarded AT THE SAME TIME. Read:

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. vs. 34 THEN (at the time he sets them both before him) the king shall say to the sheep, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....: vs. 41 THEN (at the same time) shall he say to them on his left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." The sheep and the goats are BOTH resurrected and judged and rewarded at the same time WHEN Jesus comes, on the last day.

So lets look at another scripture in 2 Thess. 1:6 Paul is telling the believers that is a righteous thing with God to recompense those who were troubling them at that time. He assures them that God will take vengeance on them WHEN HE COMES, not 1000 years after he comes.

6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those who trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heave with his might angels...(WHEN he comes...not 1000 years AFTER he comes) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel....(according to Pre trib doctrine there is no resurrection of the wicked dead until the 1000 years are finished, but here Paul is saying God will take vengeance on those who were troubling them WHEN he comes).

    "...who shall be punished with everlasting fire from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power..." and then the clincher as to WHEN they will be punished...vs. 10- WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN ALL HIS SAINTS.

See that he says this punishment of taking vengeance with flaming fire will take place WHEN he comes, not 1000 years AFTER he comes. They have to be resurrected for him to punish them with flaming fire.

So now lets look at another scripture in Rev. 1:7

"Behold, he cometh with clouds, and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, even  those who pierced him..."

So how is that 'those that pierced him, being wicked men, will see him when he comes if they are not resurrected until 1000 years after he comes? The event is when he 'cometh with clouds, which is the Second Coming. He does not 'come with clouds at the end of the 1000 years...he has already came and has been on the earth for the entire 1000 years reigning with his saints.

So lets look at another scripture in Matthew 26:64

"Jesus saith unto him (Caiphas) Thou hast said nevertheless I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.:

So Caiphas was a wicked man, yet Jesus is telling him he will see him WHEN HE COMES in the clouds of heaven. This is the second coming, not an event that happens at the end of the 1000 years. Here again we see the wicked dead will be resurrected at the Second Coming or Jesus could have never told Caiphas this if he knew Caiphas would not be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years.

So lets look again at Daniel 12:2

  "Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

  So the word 'many' is a synecdoche, meaning that a part is put for the whole...In the same sense Paul said 'many were made sinners, it is not to be assumed that quite a few people were made sinners, but not all of them. No. The word 'many' is sometimes translated 'multitudes' of them sleeping the dust shall awake, meaning there the amount of people that will be resurrected will be great.

 This resurrection does not occur according to a pre trib timeline, as it states these many people will be resurrected when Israel is delivered, and we know from Zachariah that Israel is not converted until they see him coming and he saves them from being destroyed. Read:

Timeframe:

1) Dan. 11:45 Yet he (antichrist) shall come to his end; and none shall help him (Second Coming timeframe...after the tribulation when Jesus comes down and destroys him)

2) AT THAT TIME Michael stands up...(same timeframe...not pre-trib) 

3) There shall be a time of trouble (great tribulation period)

4) AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered (Second Coming)

5) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake (Resurrection of good and bad at the Second Coming)

.So you can see again there is no resurrection of the righteous happening here before the tribulation, and another resurrection for the wicked happening at the end of the 100 years...both are centered at the timeframe of the Second Coming. This is also confirmed that both of these events will have taken place by the time the end of the reign of the anti christ in Dan. 12:6

"And one said to the  man clothed with linen...how long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" What wonders is he asking about? He is asking how long it will be to the END of the 1) man of sin, 2) Michael standing up 3) Israel being delivered, 4) the time of trouble, 5) the resurrection of both good and bad.

  We can't arbitrarily just delete the resurrection of the wicked that is included in the list of events to be completed. He doesn't ask. ..'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders, except for the resurrection of the wicked?' He asks 'How long shall it be to the end of THESE WONDERS...the wonders that were just spoken of.

And what was the answer he got? It was told him that 'It would be for a time, times and dividing of times, and when he shall have accomplished to shatter the power of the holy people, ALL THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.

So go into the details here and see...The time, times and dividing of times would be the 3 .5 year reign of the man of sin, and then it says 'when he shall have accomplished to scatter, or break in pieces the power of the holy people, then all these things will be finished.

So he is saying at the end of the 3. 5 years of the reign of the beast during which he shatters the power of the saints these events will be finished. He does not say they will be finished at this time except the resurrection of the wicked will happen 1000 years later...No. He says ALL THESE THINGS just mentioned will be finished...the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked will be done, the time of trouble will be over, Israel will be delivered, the man of sin will come to his end.

So now lets see what is meant by the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Picture all from Adam until Jesus comes, both good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming. The day in which he comes is the end of this age, the last day, the day of judgment, the harvest, etc..etc. It does not mean it is the last that ever will be, it means it will be the last day of this age.

The group of people who have lived and died from Adam to the Second Coming are those who will be resurrected at the Second Coming, both good and bad. When we get to those who will dwell in the next age, or in the 1000 year reign period there is an entirely new set of people who live and die. So now instead of a group of people who lived and died from Adam to the Second Coming, there emerges a group of people who will live and die from the Second Coming until the end of the 1000 years, or until the Great white Throne judgment. 

The people who then live and die until the great white throne judgment encompasses an entirely new set of people. So from here we can deal with the issue of what Paul said in Timothy, that when he comes he will judge the quick and the dead...in other words, he not only judges the living, but also the dead. The instances we have looked at dealt with the resurrection of the dead. like at the Sheep and Goat judgment there was no 'alter call' for the goats to come now and accept Jesus...No. They have no more opportunity, while on the other hand, the ones who are still alive at the Second Coming have an opportunity to accept him.

So Zechariah states that those who are left from all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the Lord..the issue is that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord, so all people are not killed during the tribulation.

Revelation brings this out in Rev. 2:26-27

"And he that overcomes will I give power over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

So how will he give power to someone to rule over the nations if they are all killed? Of course they are not all killed, rather he rebukes them and they repent and become subjects during the 1000 years while we reign over the nations as kings and priests.

 Rev. 19:15 says 'he smites the nations and rules them with a rod of iron..." See if 'smiting them meant he killed everyone then he would not be ruling them for they would be dead. But what this 'smiting' means is that he rebukes them and the repent, as it states in Isaiah 2:4 'And he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people...and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks, and nation shall not lift up sword against nation..."

 So anyway, thats the jist of how people get converted at the Second Coming and we rule over them during the 1000 years. So what is meant then that the 'rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished?

So go back to Caiphas seeing Jesus coming in the clouds and lets connect a few dots. Caiphas SEES Jesus coming, not that he is coming WiTH the saints, but the resurrected Caiphas has been resurrected and by extension even those that pierced him and everyone sees him but lets just focus on what is going on. The saints are coming with Jesus to execute wrath on the armies that are gathered at Armageddon. Connect these two dots, that although the resurrection of the wicked has happened and Caiphas sees Jesus and his armies coming to kill those at Armageddon on the last day, we can see that those at Armageddon will be killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked has already taken place. These are the 'rest of the dead' that are killed ON THAT DAY that will not be resurrected until the thousand years are finished. This last day is now the beginning of the new age wherein people will live and die during this timeframe and will be those who are resurrected at the Great White Throne, both good and bad again, but of course that were killed will be included in this grouping. 

So lets look at one more scripture in closing to confirm what was just said in Isaiah Isaiah 24:21 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. (The kings of the earth that are gathered at Armageddon) they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, (gathered into the pit or prison called death and hell) and after many days shall they be visited."(after the 1000 years they are resurrected and judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. 

Thee is much more but this is way to long of a post...Gary

 

 

 

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[transmogrified]

 Quote:

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ
 

 Yes there is one time of resurrection...it is when all those who are in the grave hear his voice and come forth...but there is not one voice that sounds for the righteous to come forth and then another voice at a later time for all the wicked to come out of their graves. John 5: 28-29 'All those in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of man and shall come forth.' Implying the voice sounds once for the righteous and then later another voice sounds for the wicked is not in the text.

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

There are two groups of people that get resurrected, but one resurrection. Paul said in Acts 24:15 there 'will be a resurrection of the dead (singular)  both of the just and the unjust.' He did not say there would be one resurrection for the just that would happen first, and then another one that would happen later for the unjust. 

There is a second death, but the assumption that there is a second resurrection is based on misunderstanding what the first resurrection means. We are in the first resurrection, not because we get raised before the wicked, but because we are in Christ who was the first that rose from the dead 2000 years ago. Jesus was the first that should rise from the dead and he is called the first fruits of those who slept...we are not the ones who got raised first...it was Christ who was raised first and we get raised later at his coming. But the scripture plainly shows that all the good and bad are resurrected at the same time on the last day.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

The misunderstanding is corrected by the analogy of the net in Matthew 13. The net was lowered only one time. The net was drawn only when it was full of good and bad fish. There was no net lowered at one time to pick up the good fish, and then lowered again at another time to pick up the bad fish...The distinction was not two nets, but two kinds of fish in one net.  The separation was based on who was bad and who was good, not when they were gathered, for they all came to shore in the same net, at the same time. 

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 Quote:

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ
 

 Yes there is one time of resurrection...it is when all those who are in the grave hear his voice and come forth...but there is not one voice that sounds for the righteous to come forth and then another voice at a later time for all the wicked to come out of their graves. John 5: 28-29 'All those in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of man and shall come forth.' Implying the voice sounds once for the righteous and then later another voice sounds for the wicked is not in the text.

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

There are two groups of people that get resurrected, but one resurrection. Paul said in Acts 24:15 there 'will be a resurrection of the dead (singular)  both of the just and the unjust.' He did not say there would be one resurrection for the just that would happen first, and then another one that would happen later for the unjust. 

There is a second death, but the assumption that there is a second resurrection is based on misunderstanding what the first resurrection means. We are in the first resurrection, not because we get raised before the wicked, but because we are in Christ who was the first that rose from the dead 2000 years ago. Jesus was the first that should rise from the dead and he is called the first fruits of those who slept...we are not the ones who got raised first...it was Christ who was raised first and we get raised later at his coming. But the scripture plainly shows that all the good and bad are resurrected at the same time on the last day.
 

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

The misunderstanding is corrected by the analogy of the net in Matthew 13. The net was lowered only one time. The net was drawn only when it was full of good and bad fish. There was no net lowered at one time to pick up the good fish, and then lowered again at another time to pick up the bad fish...The distinction was not two nets, but two kinds of fish in one net.  The separation was based on who was bad and who was good, not when they were gathered, for they all came to shore in the same net, at the same time. 

Semantics, there are two resurrections on the last day,this event takes place in the twinkling of an eye, the righteous will be removed and not experience Gods cup of wrath

The first resurrection seen in Revelation 20:5-6  below is of the righteous, the second death represents the resurrection of the wicked

Revelation 20:5-6KJV

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Edited December 26, 2021 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

Semantics, there are two resurrections on the last day,this event takes place in the twinkling of an eye, 

Are you saying that both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected in a twinkle of an eye on the last day?

[R. Hartono]

@transmogrified

@truth7t7

[transmogrified]

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Want verses about the pre-trib. rapture and claims there is none ?

Yes, please give me the verses about the pre-trib rapture and claims there is none...

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Very clear, the saints are caught up to the cloudbecause Jesus has not return yet but taking these wise virgins home b

It is not an issue of whether the saints are caught into the clouds...most people will agree that we will be caught up in the clouds. The question is WHEN will this happen? The part of the scripture you have given does not prove when this is to happen, just that it will happen. Do you have any verses that show they are caught up into the clouds before the tribulation?

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because Jesus has not return yet but taking these wise virgins home

There are not too many that would disagree that Jesus has not returned yet...how does that prove people get caught up into the clouds before the tribulation?

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but taking these wise virgins home

Part of the scripture about the wise virgins says: "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.:

How do you know this cry that was made at midnight was before the tribulation?
 

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but taking these wise virgins home"

 

Another part of the scripture states: "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut." 

The above text shows the wise virgins went with him to the marriage. How do you know this marriage happens before the tribulation and can you show me a scripture that this marriage is in heaven?

Thank you- Gary