1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Trib Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

[truth7t7]

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[AdHoc]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:24 AM, truth7t7 said:

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You have yet to define "day". 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. So you have to define "the last day" using scripture. And if you do so, you will find that there are 5 "days" in scripture. they are;

1. The time of daylight
2. The evening and following day - 24 hours from sunset to sunset
3. An event when it will be somebody's day of fame or horror
4. A year when used in prophecy (Dan.9 etc)
5. A thousand years is AS a "day" to the Lord

Now 1s Corinthians 15:23 says that the sequence of resurrection is Christ first, then "those who are His "at His coming", which is about, or exactly 2,000 years later. 

1. In John 5 above in your posting, you allude to the UNBELIEVER. It is ALL in the graves.
2. In John 6 above you allude to the BELIEVERS. But he too is raised "at the last day"
3. In John 12 above you allude to the UNBELIEVER again, and again it is the last day

Is 1st Corinthians 15:23 wrong? Should it read; "Christ first ... then ALL men on the last day", not "Christ first ... then those who are His at His COMING"? And then an even bigger problem arrises. The martyrs of Revelation 20 "LIVE" with Christ and rule, but the "rest of the dead" do not rise for 1,000 years.

May I propose that John 5, 6 & 12 above are correct if the "day" is defined as a thousand years. Any other "day" causes a contradiction.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have yet to define "day". 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. So you have to define "the last day" using scripture. And if you do so, you will find that there are 5 "days" in scripture. they are;

1. The time of daylight
2. The evening and following day - 24 hours from sunset to sunset
3. An event when it will be somebody's day of fame or horror
4. A year when used in prophecy (Dan.9 etc)
5. A thousand years is AS a "day" to the Lord

Now 1s Corinthians 15:23 says that the sequence of resurrection is Christ first, then "those who are His "at His coming", which is about, or exactly 2,000 years later. 

1. In John 5 above in your posting, you allude to the UNBELIEVER. It is ALL in the graves.
2. In John 6 above you allude to the BELIEVERS. But he too is raised "at the last day"
3. In John 12 above you allude to the UNBELIEVER again, and again it is the last day

Is 1st Corinthians 15:23 wrong? Should it read; "Christ first ... then ALL men on the last day", not "Christ first ... then those who are His at His COMING"? And then an even bigger problem arrises. The martyrs of Revelation 20 "LIVE" with Christ and rule, but the "rest of the dead" do not rise for 1,000 years.

May I propose that John 5, 6 & 12 above are correct if the "day" is defined as a thousand years. Any other "day" causes a contradiction.

The Lord Jesus Christ clearly defined (The Last Day) in John 12:48 below, there will be no days following this last day

It fits perfectly with (The Last Day) resurrection in John 6:39-40, (Then Cometh The End) in 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

Your claim I have brought forth private interpretation to validate your teaching is lacking

Jesus Is The Lord

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Edited December 17, 2021 by truth7t7

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The Lord Jesus Christ clearly defined (The Last Day) in John 12:48 below, there will be no days following this last day

It fits perfectly with (The Last Day) resurrection in John 6:39-40, (Then Cometh The End) in 1 Corinthians 15:23-24

Your claim I have brought forth private interpretation to validate your teaching is lacking

Jesus Is The Lord

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I guess that you are hearing this matter of defining the "day" for the first time, and I can understand your appreciation of it. I am not writing this to prove you wrong. I'm just showing you that there is an explanation why the "last day" can contain a resurrection and judgment of the Christian and the Jew, who are raised "WHEN HE COMES", and a resurrection and judgment of "the rest of the dead" who are only raised 1,000 years later. You might want to consider this, because if you stick to your theory, then the explanation of Acts 2:16-20 is going to be problematic. It reads;

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come

• In verse 17 we have "LAST DAYS" (plural). Now, Peter says that what happened before their eyes was God pouring out His Spirit. That was Pentecost 30 AD.
• But in verse 19 Peter says that ALSO belonging to the last days is a fearful judgment. Now, we know that this  has not come yet. So "THE LAST DAYS" span at least 2,000 years.
• But then verse 20 says that these "last days" are "BEFORE" the great and notable day of the Lord comes.

If the "last days" in which God's Spirit is poured out for power to do miracles and healings and speak in tongues are 2,000 years, then we must give the same value to the "DAY OF THE LORD". And that "day" is singular. Which one of the "days" of the Bible will you give it? And how will you explain that there is no resurrection although they are "LAST"? And how will you explain that it is AFTER the Great Tribulation that the "day of the Lord" is?

The only reasonable argument is that the age of God's Spirit poured out for making the Church is 2,000 years, and that these "2 days" are the "LAST" of 6 days, like Genesis, and that the remaining "day" belongs to the Lord (as the Sabbath always was) and in it is the resurrection of His Church, and 1,000 years later, the resurrection of the "the rest of the dead".

Any other scenario will cause absurdities.

[missmuffet]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:24 PM, truth7t7 said:

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Time will tell won't it?

[AdHoc]

32 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Only modern futurists believe this. It is not something we "know." It is something you guys of a certain eschatological views believe. It is also a post hoc argument. We don't measure scripture by history; we measure history by scripture. If the scriptures say X happened at Y then we believe scripture whether we understand how X happened at Y or not.

Irrelevant to the op. The op is about the last day (singular), not the last days plural. This is a moving of the goal posts. Even if the last days (plural) do last 2000 years there is a last day to the last days. The op is concerned solely and explicitly with the last day singular. 

 

And anyone interested in the difference between the singular last day and the plural last days should definitely survey the New Testament to see how the New Testament defines each. 
 

I'm astounded at your perception. Over and over and over, especially in the New Testament, the inspired authors recorded an event that was witnessed by many and then said ...

"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by .... "(Matt.8:17a)

What is prophecy if there be no historical fulfillment? And Joel's prophecy in Acts 2 is only partially fulfilled.

Yes, the scripture I investigated is irrelevant to the OP but not to the mechanism of how my brother reaches conclusions. For example, this objection of yours is irrelevant to the OP too. But your opinion is noted - and your freedom of speech is upheld. Pray, tell us how you reconcile two resurrections which Revelation 20 says are a thousand years apart, but John says are in the same day?

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

And I am astounded at your perception. Blessedly, this op is not about posters' perceptions. This op is about 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 being about a last day resurrection and not a last days rapture as some construe the latter. 

 

So how about we keep the posts about the posts and not the posters? Can we do that? 

 

Many times the NT says "That it might be fulfilled..." thereby indicating fulfillment that is yet to occur or pending. I think if those texts are examined it will be discovered most of them contain other markers that indicate the pending fulfillment was expected or anticipated by that audience, the audience of the first century and not us here in modern times in the 21st century. It will also be discovered there is also nothing in the text specifically indicating a far, far, far, far, far distant fulfilment. In other words, most of those "pending fulfillment" texts that were just commendably and astutely pointed out , also contain either explicit or implicit indicators of urgency and an absence of far distant delay. Any time centuries of delay are assigned to any text we should all ask ourselves how that was reached. 

Aside from the "That it might be fulfilled...." statements there are also very plain statements stating, "This is what the prophet was saying...." such as the Acts Pentecost experience being a fulfillment of Joel 2. Whether all of Joel was fulfilled may be a matter of debate but there is not, cannot, and should not be any dispute that the specific text Peter quoted was and has been fulfilled. The same is true of the portion of Amos James cites in Acts 15. 

If the New Testament states something was fulfilled, then it was fulfilled. 
If the New Testament states something will be fulfilled and indicates it will be fulfilled in a period of time relevant to that time period, then it was in their future but our past.
If the New Testament states something will be fulfilled and indicates that fulfillment is in the far distant future, then it might be in our future; that of our lifetime. 

 

That's the proper reading of scripture. Shouldn't be any dispute on those three points. 

No, we'll stick to the topic of this op or we won't trade post in this thread at all. We'll show truth7t7 respect by not hijacking his op for some off-topic agenda. This op is specifically about 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and the premise it is about the last day, not a last days rapture. It's a fairly specific and succinct point. No warrant for digression into multiple resurrections and how much of what prophesies were fulfilled. 

Last day versus last days
Resurrection versus Rapture 

Can any mention of the last day singular be found in Joel? How about explicit mention of a rapture or the resurrection? If not, then Joel is irrelevant to the op. If so, then post that content because that's what this op is about. 

OK. I hear you. Disregard my postings. I had no idea that defining and showing how the "last day(s)" is used in scripture would create such a storm of protest. I'm waiting with anticipation to see your exegesis on the OP without defining the "last day".

[truth7t7]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I guess that you are hearing this matter of defining the "day" for the first time, and I can understand your appreciation of it. I am not writing this to prove you wrong. I'm just showing you that there is an explanation why the "last day" can contain a resurrection and judgment of the Christian and the Jew, who are raised "WHEN HE COMES", and a resurrection and judgment of "the rest of the dead" who are only raised 1,000 years later. You might want to consider this, because if you stick to your theory, then the explanation of Acts 2:16-20 is going to be problematic. It reads;

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come

• In verse 17 we have "LAST DAYS" (plural). Now, Peter says that what happened before their eyes was God pouring out His Spirit. That was Pentecost 30 AD.
• But in verse 19 Peter says that ALSO belonging to the last days is a fearful judgment. Now, we know that this  has not come yet. So "THE LAST DAYS" span at least 2,000 years.
• But then verse 20 says that these "last days" are "BEFORE" the great and notable day of the Lord comes.

If the "last days" in which God's Spirit is poured out for power to do miracles and healings and speak in tongues are 2,000 years, then we must give the same value to the "DAY OF THE LORD". And that "day" is singular. Which one of the "days" of the Bible will you give it? And how will you explain that there is no resurrection although they are "LAST"? And how will you explain that it is AFTER the Great Tribulation that the "day of the Lord" is?

The only reasonable argument is that the age of God's Spirit poured out for making the Church is 2,000 years, and that these "2 days" are the "LAST" of 6 days, like Genesis, and that the remaining "day" belongs to the Lord (as the Sabbath always was) and in it is the resurrection of His Church, and 1,000 years later, the resurrection of the "the rest of the dead".

Any other scenario will cause absurdities.

Thanks for the response, we disagree

As stated in John 12:48 Jesus defined (The Last Day) with no days to follow

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited December 18, 2021 by truth7t7

[Marilyn C]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:54 PM, truth7t7 said:

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You seem to missed out this relevant verse - `For if believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

You see there are millions of believers who have died and are presently ASLEEP IN JESUS who are NOT in the graves. 

The final resurrection of those IN THE GRAVES is not that.

Also you seem to have NO idea of the Lord`s purpose for building His Body over these past centuries.

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

You seem to missed out this relevant verse - `For if believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him THOSE WHO SLEEP IN JESUS.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

You see there are millions of believers who have died and are presently ASLEEP IN JESUS who are NOT in the graves. 

The final resurrection of those IN THE GRAVES is not that.

Also you seem to have NO idea of the Lord`s purpose for building His Body over these past centuries.

I dont follow Ellen G. White in 7th Day Adventism's "Soul Sleep", a doctrine not found in scripture, back to the topic, thanks for the response

Jesus Is The Lord