A Prewrath Rapture question

[Biblican]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I choose to meditate on scripture, pray much in the Spirit, and wait for the Lord to reveal His intent in the scriptures. It works.

And He reveals the prophetic meanings of the visions. He had to show John that candlesticks and stars represent churches and angels. In other words, there are things in Revelation that are designed to represent other things and unless the Lord shows you, you are not going to understand it. We are shown that candlesticks are churches and the two witnesses are churches.

[transmogrified]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:56 AM, iamlamad said:

On the other hand, perhaps you can't in your mind see that Jesus was talking to Jews about their resurrection because the Gentile church did not yet exist when Jesus said those words.

Even Pre trib can not see that Jesus was talking to the Jews about their resurrection...Peter was a Jew and died after Pentecost...this would place him in the 'dead in Christ' category that would allegedly have him resurrected before the tribulation. It can't go both ways...Pre trib can not explain what Jesus was saying by contradicting themselves...Pre trib can not have Peter resurrected before the tribulation and also say Jesus will resurrect him on the last day, and say this is a valid explanation...This is non sense.

 The part about being a Jew would have nothing to do with the resurrection, as a believing Jew is the same as a believing Gentile...as Paul said 'there is neither Jew nor Greek bond or free, male or female...we are all one in Christ Jesus. 

Please provide evidence Jews will be resurrected on the last day and Gentiles will be resurrected before the tribulation.

If you claim the Old Testament saints are in the category of "All those that God has given to Christ,' then all the Old Testament saints are resurrected on the Last day...

But claiming one category of who Jesus said would be raised on the last day still leaves three other categories. It was not just 1) All those God gave to Christ who were to be resurrected on the last day, it was also:

2) Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood

3) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him

4) All those who God has drawn to Christ

If it is claimed the Jews, or Old Testament saints fill the #1 category, who is going to fill the other three?

The problem is no one can stick their big toe into John 6 and legitimately leave with the idea that someone was being left out.

If truly all scriptures are to considered to formulate doctrine, then who is going to fill #4?

All those who God has drawn to Christ...Jesus said no man can come unto me except the spirit of God draw him...who fits this criteria? Is it ever shown that New Testament saints come to Jesus? Of course. It is the whole New Testament in a nutshell...

If Jesus said those that all those that come to him would be raised on the last day, it is easy to say the pre trib explanation that he was only talking to Jews who would be resurrected is false.

Please provide a valid explanation of who will be resurrected on the Last Day.

On 3/25/2022 at 8:56 AM, iamlamad said:

Gary, you can argue "till the cows come home" that Jesus included all that would ever come to Him in the future, Jew and Gentile alike, for that  "on the last day" resurrection.  The problem with that theory is that it ignores Paul's writing.  It is not wise to put more weight, so to speak, on one verse and ignore another verse.

The above quote asserts the only people who would be resurrected on the last day would be those who had died before Jesus uttered these words in John 6. Pre trib would not even believe this as they have the tribulation saints and the two witnesses resurrected on the last day.

Please provide a valid explanation for who Jesus will raise on the Last day.

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The problem with that theory is that it ignores Paul's writing.

Saying Jesus is contradicting Paul is a serious allegation. Jesus did not himself write anything in the scriptures...John wrote under the same inspiration as Paul did...The Holy Ghost did not inspire John to say 'all those that God draws to Christ will be raised on the last day,' and then inspire Paul to say 'some of those that God draws to Christ will be resurrected on the last day...' 

If Pre trib is going to claim the tribulation saints are those who will be resurrected on the last day, then they will also have to be acknowledged which category they fit into in John 6.

Will it be...

1) Those who God has given to Christ?

2) Those who the spirit of God has drawn to Christ?

3) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him?

or 4) He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood?

It cannot be said the tribulation saints will be resurrected on the last day and not find them listed here, just as it can not be said the New Testament saints will not be resurrected on the last day when they are listed here. 

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The problem with that theory is that it ignores Paul's writing.

What I have heard is that Paul says we are raptured before the wrath of God is poured out...unless I am missing something this is said to be stated in 1 Thessalonians. Please state the exact verse you are going from that states this and how you came to this conclusion...

Blessings to you- Gary  

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Even Pre trib can not see that Jesus was talking to the Jews about their resurrection...Peter was a Jew and died after Pentecost...this would place him in the 'dead in Christ' category that would allegedly have him resurrected before the tribulation. It can't go both ways...Pre trib can not explain what Jesus was saying by contradicting themselves...Pre trib can not have Peter resurrected before the tribulation and also say Jesus will resurrect him on the last day, and say this is a valid explanation...This is non sense. 

Once someone is born again, their "In Christ" status takes precedence. Of course all the disciples, being born again will rise with the church.   This is bible. 

On the Last day, will be for all the OT saints that were never born again. Plus, it will be for all who will be beheaded by the Beast.

God has the plan for the Jews all laid out, to include their time to end with the 70th week. But there was one stipulation: they had to accept Jesus as their Messiah as a nation.

Because they failed, God put blindness in part upon them, and sent Paul to the Gentiles. In other words, but STOPPED the Jewish clock, and inserted the Gentile church into the Jewish timeline. When the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, God will rapture the church, stop the Gentile timeline and start up the Jewish timeline again, just in time for the Day of the Lord and the 70th-week. The Day of the Lord will be for both the Jews and the nations, but the 70th week is strictly for the Hebrew people: it is THEIR final week.

The early church was nearly all Jews, but as time went on, fewer and fewer church members were Jews. Today there is still a very small % of the church is Hebrew people. It is mostly a Gentile church.

Paul's gospel was different. In fact, it was SO different, Christian Jews forced Paul to go to Jerusalem to the "experts" to see if Paul was right.

[transmogrified]

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

On the Last day, will be for all the OT saints that were never born again.

Could you please show which of the four categories in John 6, the Old Testament saints are identified...Is it

1) All those God has given to Christ

2) Those who God has drawn to Christ..

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood

4) Those who see the Son and believe on him

11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Plus, it will be for all who will be beheaded by the Beast.

Could you please show me which category those that are behead by the beast will fit in?

Edited March 26, 2022 by transmogrified

[iamlamad]

On 3/26/2022 at 12:11 PM, transmogrified said:

Could you please show which of the four categories in John 6, the Old Testament saints are identified...Is it

1) All those God has given to Christ

2) Those who God has drawn to Christ..

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood

4) Those who see the Son and believe on him

Could you please show me which category those that are behead by the beast will fit in?

It is in the fact that at that time the Gentile church of today DID NOT EXIST.  It might not have existed if Israel as a nation had accepted Jesus as their Messiah.  The Father had to be very careful in what Jesus said, because the future could have gone either way. Did the Father know? Of course He knew, but it seems the FAther waits to allow men to make up THEIR minds.

On the other hand, 

What part of this shows up a last day rapture?

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

¹¹ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

There must be a verse somewhere that shows you this is after the trib. It CANNOT be verse 11, for it will be no comfort if the church has to go through the days of God's wrath. It cannot be verse 9, for that verse tells us God will set no appointments for us with His wrath.

I am therefore stumped. I cannot find one verse here that even hints of a posttrib rapture.

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am therefore stumped. I cannot find one verse here that even hints of a posttrib rapture.

Could you show me which verse in the above text that says the rapture would come before his wrath? The above text does not mention a rapture anywhere, pre trib or post trib. 

Quote

"But of the times and seasons, brethren ye have no need that I write unto you..."

Where does the above statement mention a rapture that takes place before his wrath?

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Yes, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...Where is the rapture mentioned in this text?

I can give you a reference to the Day of the Lord where a rapture is mentioned and it is in 2 Thess. 2:1 

"We beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord (Second Coming) and our gathering together unto him (rapture)...he then goes on to say that this Day of the Lord (this same day wherein the Second Coming and the rapture will take place ) will not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

The man of sin does not show up until the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation so this day would not be before the tribulation. 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The above verse does not mention the rapture, either pre trib or post trib. 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This does not speak directly about the rapture, but it does say we are not in darkness that that day would overtake us as a thief...Why? Because he told us 'when you shall see the man of sin in the holy place, then know that it is nigh, even at the doors...the only way we could see him is if we were here, and of course the believers had not yet been raptured because no resurrection of the dead in Christ had happened, because there was no resurrection of any believers until the last day. 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

We are children of the light, because we are taking heed to what Jesus said to look for...the entrance of his word giveth light...it gives understanding unto the simple...

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Sleeping means one is unaware of what is going on around him...we know his coming will be nigh at the door only if we know what we are to be looking for. When Jesus said we would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, he said 'let him that reads understand..' So Jesus was pointing his disciples to go read Daniel to get the understanding they needed to know about the anti christ. He told them they would see him, and he also told the disciples to understand what Daniel had to say about him...they would not have seen the anti christ at all if the rapture was to take them away first, and neither would they have been pointed to Daniel to get understanding about the man of sin, if Jesus knew they would not encounter him.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

This verse does not show us the rapture takes place before God's wrath.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

This verse does not say the rapture takes place before God's wrath.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

This verse does not show the rapture happens before God's wrath...it shows believers are not appointed to wrath...it would apply to saints who live before the tribulation as well as to saints who live during the tribulation. Does God pour out his wrath on his saints right now? No. Will he pour out his wrath on his saints in the tribulation? No.

First of all, there is no resurrection of anyone before the tribulation, so there was no rapture to miss...so God could not be angry with anyone for missing what did not happen...So what this means is ALL believers who are alive at this time will go through the great tribulation...which of course means Jesus will fulfill his word that the resurrection for all saints will happen on the last day, at the last trump, for all saints.

Because saints are in the time of great tribulation does not mean God is pouring out his wrath on them...tribulation works patience, we are to glory in tribulations, it says we are appointed unto tribulation...Paul said 'Who can separate us from the Love of God? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No...he said in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us...All the things he mentioned did not include the wrath of God...why? Because we are not appointed unto wrath....

What else does it say? It says 'He that endures unto the end shall be saved..." Yes, we will go through all these things...yes we are more than conquerors, yes God said no temptation has taken you that that which is common to man, and he will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able, but will with the temptation also provide a way to escape that ye might be able to bear it...bearing it means you are able to undergo hardship, you are able to endure hardness as a good soldier...and come out triumphant in the end. He said 'I am with you alway, even to the end of the age...' 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

This is the comfort we have from God...that whether we live or die we are going to live together with the Lord...if we are killed by the beast, or if we are alive and remain, we still know we shall see God and be with him forever...Like Job said, 'I know my redeemer liveth and shall stand in the latter day upon the earth, and though after the skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh I shall see God; whom I shall see for myself, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me...

What did Paul say? He said "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in me will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ...' Yes, we may be beheaded, yes the little horn will wage war against us...yes he will wear out the saints of the most high... 

He said he that began a good work in us will perform it until the day of Christ...this is not saying he that began a good work in you will pour out his wrath on you in the day of Jesus Christ...No...he continues to perform his good work within you all the way to the day of Jesus Christ...

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There must be a verse somewhere that shows you this is after the trib. It CANNOT be verse 11, for it will be no comfort if the church has to go through the days of God's wrath.

This is adding to the text...it does not say we will avoid going through the days of God's wrath...it says 'We are not appointed unto wrath.' Just like the 144,000 they are alive during that time of wrath and they are not hurt by it...we also are sealed with the Holy Spirit and are not appointed to wrath. This is who our God is: It says  'The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer, My God, my strength in whom I will trust, by buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower..." 

Where are we to dwell? It says "He that dwells in the secret place of the most high shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty..." God does not pour out his wrath on those who are abiding under his shadow...if we do not abide in him, then yes, he could pour out his wrath on us...but as long as we are in him, we are not appointed unto wrath even though we may go through all types of tribulations...

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It cannot be verse 9, for that verse tells us God will set no appointments for us with His wrath.

I don't see any translations that have the words 'will set no appointments for us with his wrath...' that is making it sound like if you are in at a certain place at a specific time God will pour out his wrath on you....' which is not the meaning of the verse...You are only subject to God's wrath if you are in sin...not just because you were alive on the earth during the tribulation...being alive on the earth during that time is not a sin...you could be alive on the earth during that time and be in sin, but just being there does not make you a sinner. If it was true that just being alive during that time made you subject to God's wrath then the 144000 could never be protected, because they were there...but if God protects them from his wrath during that time, he will also protect the saints from his wrath as well, as it says, we are not appointed to wrath.

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am therefore stumped. I cannot find one verse here that even hints of a posttrib rapture.

The only scripture claimed to be pre trib, was 'Wherefore comfort one another with these words.' Is the scripture you are referring to that convinced you the rapture was before his wrath? 

It is comforting to know that I am not appointed unto wrath...it is comforting to me to know that whether I live or die I will be with the Lord...This is not a direct or indirect reference to the rapture happening before God's wrath. 

The only way it could be considered an indirect reference to a pre trib rapture is by thinking that because you are alive on the earth during a specific time period then God will pour out of wrath on everyone regardless of status, and rather than being encouraged to be in a state of righteousness to avoid his wrath, it is said we must be raptured to avoid this period of time... As if God is going into an uncontrollable rage and just starts swinging his sword killing everyone in sight. This is non sense.

The misunderstanding here is thinking his wrath is the universal condition that will be on the earth during that time, when it is not his wrath that is universal, it is the tribulation that is universal...the wrath is selective upon those who are evil. Remember it is not God that is waging war against the saints, it is the little horn. God is the refuge of saints, the devil is our enemy, not God. 

 

The place where it does describe the rapture in detail is what Paul was saying  in 1 Thess. 4:16 where it says 'the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the air..."

The place where it shows a rapture after the tribulation is that it says the dead in Christ raise before those which are alive ascend up...the resurrection in turn, is shown to happen on the last day, therefore the rapture does not come before the last day...the people Jesus said he would raise on the last day included people who believed on the Son of God...these people are the dead in Christ..

A hint is an indirect indication of something...yes it does not say 'the resurrection will not happen before the last day,' but the hint, or the indirect indication,  is that the resurrection does not happen before the last day, therefore the rapture could not happen before the last day, because it must happen first. 

So the indirect indication was the sequence of events...just like if I say God created man on the sixth day and made cattle and creeping things on the fifth day...It doesn't come out and say, 'But the sixth day came after the 5th day,' but there is an indirect indication that it did because we can see that 5 comes before 6. 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is in the fact that at that time the Gentile church of today DID NOT EXIST. 

Where did pre trib come up with the idea that the OT saints and the tribulation saints would be raised on the last day? Did they read John 6 and say, they must fit in here somewhere just because there was no other place to put them? Any in depth consideration of what Jesus said in John 6 would not leave anyone with the impression that only OT saints and tribulation saints are being mentioned...

If what Jesus said in John 6 truly only pertained to the Old Testament saints, then why were tribulation saints and the two witnesses added into the mix? These are New Testament saints and they died in Christ, yet they are not in the 'dead in Christ' category because Pre trib can not have them in that group and still be pre trib, even though they are in that group according to their own definition...they were believers that died after Pentecost.

It appears Pre trib has no scriptural reference they can point to that justifies the position that only OT saints and tribulation saints are resurrected on the last day. Pre trib will not select any category that might pertain to them shown in John 6 because it would only open a can of worms for them in that if Old Testament saints are shown in this verse, they why are not the New Testament included in the other verse? They have no answer for this...Saying there was no Gentile church at the time has no bearing on the content on what Jesus said.

Saying the New Testament saints were not referenced by Jesus in John 6  because Pentecost had not taken place, makes everything Jesus said meaningless. Why would he say 'no man can come to me except the spirit of God draw him and I will raise him up at the last day...? He said later that if he was to be lifted up he would draw all men unto himself...this took place on the cross...now the spirit of God has been poured out in the New Testament era...who else could Jesus have been talking about except it were New Testament saints?

Who gets drawn by the spirit to Jesus? Who are they? They are saints, regardless of whether Pentecost had happened at the time he said those words or not, the description he gave shows us without question who he was talking about. If it doesn't mean New Testament saints then there was no purpose at all in him even saying it...it becomes meaningless and would not pertain to anyone. 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Could you show me which verse in the above text that says the rapture would come before his wrath? The above text does not mention a rapture anywhere, pre trib or post trib. 

Where does the above statement mention a rapture that takes place before his wrath?

Yes, the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...Where is the rapture mentioned in this text?

I can give you a reference to the Day of the Lord where a rapture is mentioned and it is in 2 Thess. 2:1 

"We beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord (Second Coming) and our gathering together unto him (rapture)...he then goes on to say that this Day of the Lord (this same day wherein the Second Coming and the rapture will take place ) will not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

The man of sin does not show up until the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation so this day would not be before the tribulation. 

The above verse does not mention the rapture, either pre trib or post trib. 

This does not speak directly about the rapture, but it does say we are not in darkness that that day would overtake us as a thief...Why? Because he told us 'when you shall see the man of sin in the holy place, then know that it is nigh, even at the doors...the only way we could see him is if we were here, and of course the believers had not yet been raptured because no resurrection of the dead in Christ had happened, because there was no resurrection of any believers until the last day. 

We are children of the light, because we are taking heed to what Jesus said to look for...the entrance of his word giveth light...it gives understanding unto the simple...

The rapture is in the previous chapter. Keep in mind, neither God nor Paul wrote in chapter headings. They were added later. Paul mentions the Day of the Lord just three verses after His classic rapture passage of 4:17. Why would he do that unless they were somehow connected?

Why would Paul then write that God will set no appointments for us with His wrath, if the Day and His wrath are not in some way connected with the rapture?

Make no mistake here, Paul is still talking about the rapture for He wrote that while those living in the darkness will get left behind and get sudden destruction, those living in Christ will get raptured ("salvation") and get to live together with Him - saying the same thing as "so shall we very be with the Lord" from chapter 4.

What I understand from this is Paul telling us that the start of God's wrath is going to follow immediately after the rapture. Prewrath theorists understands it the same way, so they have to MOVE the start of the Day of His wrath to later on in the book to make Revelation fit their theory.

Quote

when you shall see the man of sin in the holy place,

This was spoken to Jews about the end of THEIR age, and has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today. Daniel wrote that the 70th week was for his people. The church is not going to see this. Why? Because God will begin the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath BEFORE He begins the 70th week, and this will place the entire 70th week INSIDE the Day of the Lord. This means every event of the 70th week (every trumpet and every bowl) will come with His wrath - and that means, the church is not going to be here for any of it. The rapture then, just as Paul stated, will come just before wrath. I believe the rapture will be the trigger for the start of wrath.

Paul's second letter needs its own thread. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

...

"We beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord (Second Coming) and our gathering together unto him (rapture)...he then goes on to say that this Day of the Lord (this same day wherein the Second Coming and the rapture will take place ) will not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

No, that is not scripture: the rapture and the Day are two very different things.

A trigger on a gun cannot harm anyone or anything. But the trigger sets the gun off and that CAN hurt.

The Day will start with God's wrath and fierce anger. Which one of these words fits the rapture?

The truth is, the rapture is a BLESSED event and we can be SURE God is not angry with His church. God's wrath comes AFTER the rapture. (Notice that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord three verses AFTER his rapture verse.)

It is not a falling away, it is a departing. And we need not guess what significant departing Paul is talking about because He told us this passage is about the rapture.

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

The departing (of the church) must come first because the Holy Spirit, working through the church, restrains and holds back the revealing of the man of sin until the proper time. When the church is taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin can be revealed, and then all can know for sure that the Day has started and they are not IN IT.

If Paul really did mean people falling away from God, how would anyone know if enough had fallen away to be what Paul meant? It is not just an apostasia, it is THE apostasia - meaning a departing every reader should not about.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

..

The man of sin does not show up until the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation so this day would not be before the tribulation. 

The above verse does not mention the rapture, either pre trib or post trib. 

True, the man of sin will only be revealed when he will enter the temple and declare he is God. And that event will divide the week. Then, after he is revealed, John saw him rise up (gaining power?) out of the sea.

Both passage from Paul mention the rapture, one with the words "caught up together" and the other as "the gathering." But passages mention a coming of the Lord. Both passages show us a pre-tribulation rapture.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Could you show me which verse in the above text that says the rapture would come before his wrath? The above text does not mention a rapture anywhere, pre trib or post trib. 

I did not really answer this before. Verse nine shows the rapture, but Paul chose to use the word "salvation." Indeed, those caught up will be saved from the sudden destruction, by way of being caught up. Verse ten confirms this. It is by way of the rapture that we get to "live together with Him."

⁹ For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.