A Prewrath Rapture question

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

[Only] The dead in Christ rise,  anistemi,  first,  at the sounding of the trumpet.   The living will be caught up to meet them in the air later,  at the sounding of the last trumpet. 

Are there any saints killed during the 3.5 year reign of the beast?

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15 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

16 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Are there any saints killed during the 3.5 year reign of the beast?

Rev 15:2 and 20:4 make that answer a resounding yes. 

One group of saints being resurrected from the dead at one point in time and then another group of saints being resurrected 3. 5 years later would violate what God showed to Paul that we would ALL be changed at the last trump...not one group resurrected at the 1st trumpet and another group resurrected at the 7th trumpet.

It would also violate what Jesus said that 'Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him will be raised on the last day..' Not some of those who see the Son of God and believe on him will be raised 3.5 years before the last day and the others will be raised on the last day...NO. Paul and Jesus and John all say everyone will be resurrected at the same time.

John 5:28 'All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...' Not some of the righteous will hear his voice and come forth, and then the other part of the righteous will come forth at another time.

Rev. 11:18 says at the sounding of the 7th trumpet  is the time of the dead, that they should be judged...not before the 7th Trumpet, but WHEN the 7th Trumpet sounds...we shall ALL be changed.

A moment, or a twinkling of an eye does not take 3.5 years...we are all changed at the same time at the last trumpet.

This is also shown in the Wheat and Tares, and the net. The net was only lowered one time and it was only brought to shore ONE TIME when it was full of good and bad fish...NOT the net was let down for some of the good fish, and then it was let down 3. 5 years later to get the rest of the good fish...no.

Same with wheat and tares. The wheat grew until the harvest....the harvest is the end of the age...there was not some wheat harvested 3.5 years before the end of the age, then the rest of the wheat harvested at the end of the age. All the wheat was harvested at one time, at the end of the age...same as Jesus said...on the last day...not 3. 5 years before the last day.

This is where the time frame for Jesus standing on the mt. of Olives is not 3.5 years before the last day...at the one and only time the dead in Christ are resurrected will happen on the last day, so when Jesus is on the Mount of Olives it is the last day and it is not 3.5 years before it, for the only resurrection of the saints happens on the last day.

The resurrection of the dead is a foundational doctrine in Hebrews 6...if the foundation is off, then so will the rest of the building...there is only one foundation and Paul is the one who showed us the mystery...He said 'I show you a mystery...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.' He said we shall ALL be changed at the Last Trump 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Here we see an order to the Resurrection.   Christ first.  Then those at his coming.

Yes, agree totally...but remember this does not say those that are Christs' at his comings (Plural) because there is only one second coming. The one mentioned in Zech. 14 is the same coming as Matthew 24...not two different events separated by 3. 5 years...

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Then comes the end when Christ has put down the last enemy of death. 

Yes, agreed...but this victory over death is only given to the resurrected / raptured / glorified saints...at this point we become like unto the angels...but the rest of the  world is still in mortal bodies subject to death...that is what the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years is for...people who live and die during that time whether good or bad and that is when they are resurrected and judged.

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The second death is the last enemy. 

The second death hath no power over those who are in the first resurrection...death is swallowed up in victory... the second death occurs only after the wicked dead are resurrected and judged...it is at that point that they are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

It does not say 'the second death is the last enemy...it says the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The second death occurs after the second resurrection. 

There is a second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, but it is not just for the wicked dead...it includes both wicked and righteous who would live and die during the 1000 years...

However the resurrection of the wicked dead we are talking about occurs at the second coming when both the righteous and wicked are resurrected as shown in John 5;28 that ALL that are in the graves shall come forth, some to life and some to shame. It is understood the graves at present are not just filled with righteous people...so when ALL of the dead are raised it is not just referring to the righteous dead or he would not have said ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth.

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Christ holds all authority to judge the dead.

Yes

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The righteous unto life eternal and eternal damnation to those that do wickedly. 

Yes, he judges both wicked and righteous at the Second Coming, as shown by the Wheat and tares, the good and bad fish, the sheep and the goats and others. All of these events happen at the end of this age...not 3.5 years before the end of this age.

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

Because Jesus holds all resurrection authority,  the resurrection of the righteous will take place when God places all authority (over all his enemies)  under Jesus.   That begins with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet,  when the dead are judged and given reward for their works. 

Yes, and remember it does not say it is the time of the (righteous) dead that they may be judged, it says it is the time THE DEAD that THEY should be judged...of course the category of THE DEAD again does not just mean the righteous dead...for THE DEAD includes everyone who is dead, just as John 5:28 specified...ALL that are in the graves.

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The scripture says that Christ will give reward to every man for his works when he comes with the holy angels. 

Amen

 

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

And Christ will reign until the last enemy of death is defeated. 

This is true but what happens at the resurrection at the Second Coming is stated in 1 Cor. 15:54 is 'When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory"

As you can see, this would not apply to people still in mortal bodies, but only those resurrected / raptured saints would be putting on incorruptible bodies, and of course this happens at the Second Coming and not at the end of the 1000 years.

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

The righteous are rewarded with the resurrection of life at the beginning of Christ's reign and the wicked are given the resurrection of damnation at the end of the reign of Jesus over all things. 

No...both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the Second Coming...this is one of the main errors entertained by Pre, Post, and Mid trib doctrines. Jesus told Caiphas that he would see him when he comes in the clouds of heaven...How will Caiphas see him coming if he is not resurrected until 1000 years after Jesus comes? 

Rev. 1 states that '...every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." And in what context is this given? It starts out 'Behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him...' Christ does not come at the end of the 1000 years so those that pierced him can not see him when he comes in the clouds if they are not resurrected until 1000 years later.

Also Wheat and Tares...what does he say happens to BOTH groups? He says 'Let BOTH grow together UNTIL the harvest. The harvest is not at the end of the NEXT age but is specifically said to be 'at the end of THIS AGE.'

The age we are in now ends at the second coming....that is the harvest and it plainly states both groups will be rewarded and judged at the harvest. The wheat are gathered into the barn and the tares are cast into the fire...remember the tares are not cast into the fire at the end of the 1000 years but at the SAME time the sheep are resurrected and rewarded...

Same with the sheep and goats...Both groups are present before Jesus when he comes...The goats are  resurrected and judged at the same time as the sheep. He does not tell the sheep to enter into the joy of the Lord, and then cast the goats into the fire 1000 years later. No. It specifically states "He shall say such and such to the sheep...' and then it uses the word 'THEN' (meaning at the same time) shall he say to the goats.

Same with the good and bad fish...Both groups, good and bad are brought up in the net AT THE SAME TIME and then separated...not a net let down for some good fish, then another net let down for the other good fish, then 1000 years later another net let down for the bad fish. No. It is not drawn to shore until it is full of both good and bad fish.

The misconception is the phrase 'the rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 years are finished.'' Almost everyone uses that verse to refer to the wicked dead and use it as if it trumps every scripture showing both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the Second Coming.

The clarity of this verse can be understood in the context of what Jesus told Caiphas...he said he would see Jesus when he comes in the clouds of heaven. So think closely about what is going on here. Caiphas, representing the wicked dead  has been resurrected and the righteous have also been resurrected as they are coming with Jesus to the earth.

So what are they coming to do? They are coming to execute judgment upon all and fight at Armageddon, as stated in Jude 14:

"Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are  ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds..."

So hold that thought and realize Jesus and the saints are coming down to fight at Armageddon...the wicked dead have also been resurrected at this same time, as represented by Caiphas, and also in fulfillment of John 5:28 that all those who were in the graves have now heard his voice and have come forth." But there is some unfinished business yet to occur, and what would that be?

It is that Jesus and the saints are coming down to a massive slaughter of the kings and captains gathered together at Armageddon. What does that mean? It means both the wicked and righteous have been resurrected, but now all these people are on the agenda to be killed, and this is all happening on the same last day.

So what I am saying is that the armies of the beast are killed AFTER the resurrection of both groups has already taken place. The dead bodies are lying all over and blood up to the horses bridles and the birds are eating their flesh. They have died AFTER the resurrection for both groups has occurred and so what does that mean? It means these are the 'rest of the dead' ON THAT DAY that were killed but of course were not included in the resurrection of the wicked because they were killed after that happened. These are 'the rest of the dead' that will not live again, or be resurrected until the 1000 years are finished. These that are killed here are the beginning point of the next group of people that will live and die during the 1000 years and be subject to the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years.

So in essence we have a resurrection of all the good and the bad from Adam until the Second Coming, and then we have another resurrection for all the good and the bad from the time of the Second Coming until the end of the 1000 years.

There is much more on this subject... but we can look at it more later.

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

There is not one time of resurrection for all. 

John 5:28 All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...there is no gap here, nor is there a gap in the wheat and tares, nor the good and bad fish, nor the sheep and goats...all these gaps are artificially injected into these texts and many others.

Please provide evidence that the end of the age in the Wheat and tares does not both take place at the same time, at the end of this age.

Please provide evidence that the net is let down for some good fish and then again for some other good fish and then let down again for the bad fish. 

Please provide evidence that those who were persecuting the Thessalonians believers will not be judged at the Second Coming as it states:

2 Thess. 1:6-

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on those who trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power....

Then it says the magic words...."WHEN HE SHALL COME to be glorified in his saints..." 

What is he talking about? Paul is referring to the wicked people who were persecuting the Thessalonians, and he says God will take vengeance on them...but he doesn't say God will take vengeance on them at the end of the 1000 years, but he said God will take vengeance on them WHEN HE COMES...he does not come at the end of the 1000 years. 

Of course this is in harmony with all the other scriptures...the tares are cast into the fire at the end of this age...the goats are cast into the fire when he comes, the bad fish are separated at the same time the good fish are and many others. 

[WilliamL]

On 1/16/2022 at 3:30 PM, Da Puppers said:

The scripture does not show Christ "descending" from heaven with the saints,  dead or alive.   It is a fallacious interpretation that has molded a traditional interpretation into a "factual" one.   The dead in Christ RISE with him,  not descend with him.

Actually, it is both. The souls of the righteous dead are presently in heaven, waiting for their reuniting with their dead bodies at the return of Christ.

Up until Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection, all the souls of the dead descended to Hades/Sheol, which was partitioned, with a space for the righteous (Abrahams' bosom), and another for the unrighteous. But after the resurrection of Jesus, righteous souls henceforth ascended to heaven to be with the Lord, because they were now sanctified by the His blood, and thus able to enter into the Divine Presence for the first time since Eden. But they will descend to be reunited with their resurrected bodies. These souls are those who "God will bring together with Him" when Jesus descends to raise the dead. 1 Thes. 4:14

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4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 1/16/2022 at 3:30 PM, Da Puppers said:

The scripture does not show Christ "descending" from heaven with the saints,  dead or alive.   It is a fallacious interpretation that has molded a traditional interpretation into a "factual" one.   The dead in Christ RISE with him,  not descend with him.

Actually, it is both. The souls of the righteous dead are presently in heaven, waiting for their reuniting with their dead bodies at the return of Christ.

Up until Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection, all the souls of the dead descended to Hades/Sheol, which was partitioned, with a space for the righteous (Abrahams' bosom), and another for the unrighteous. But after the resurrection of Jesus, righteous souls henceforth ascended to heaven to be with the Lord, because they were now sanctified by the His blood, and thus able to enter into the Divine Presence for the first time since Eden. But they will descend to be reunited with their resurrected bodies. These souls are those who "God will bring together with Him" when Jesus descends to raise the dead. 1 Thes. 4:14

Yes...exactly...it says the body returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it...the picture is seen in the two witnesses when they have been dead for 3.5 days and then they hear a great voice from heaven...'come up hither...' they ascend up to heaven in  a cloud, and their enemies beheld them...

So even after their bodies had already started to decay after 3 days at the great voice from heaven their mortal body puts on immortality and they visibly rise up to heaven while their enemies behold them. 

This is the point in Rev. 19 when he hears a great voice of much people in heaven saying Allelluia; salvation, and glory, and honor and power, unto the Lord our God...'

These 2 witnesses are part of the dead in Christ who are  resurrected and glorified at this same time and are the first who rise up, as it says, 'the dead in Christ shall rise first..' then after that the living are caught up into the sky and they meet Jesus and the glorified saints as they are now coming down from heaven and all the saints then descend to the earth and Jesus puts his foot in that day on the Mt. of Olives...as Zech. 14 says..."And the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee...' 

 

 How did they get up to heaven? They got there by 'rising first' as 1 Thess. 4:16 states...

So yes, indeed, the saints come down with Jesus and they rule with Christ as Priests and Kings for a 1000 years on the earth. 

[truth7t7]

On 1/20/2022 at 8:05 PM, transmogrified said:

Yes, agree totally...but remember this does not say those that are Christs' at his comings (Plural) because there is only one second coming. The one mentioned in Zech. 14 is the same coming as Matthew 24...not two different events separated by 3. 5 years...

 

Yes, agreed...but this victory over death is only given to the resurrected / raptured / glorified saints...at this point we become like unto the angels...but the rest of the  world is still in mortal bodies subject to death...that is what the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years is for...people who live and die during that time whether good or bad and that is when they are resurrected and judged.

 

The second death hath no power over those who are in the first resurrection...death is swallowed up in victory... the second death occurs only after the wicked dead are resurrected and judged...it is at that point that they are judged and cast into the lake of fire.

It does not say 'the second death is the last enemy...it says the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 

There is a second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, but it is not just for the wicked dead...it includes both wicked and righteous who would live and die during the 1000 years...

However the resurrection of the wicked dead we are talking about occurs at the second coming when both the righteous and wicked are resurrected as shown in John 5;28 that ALL that are in the graves shall come forth, some to life and some to shame. It is understood the graves at present are not just filled with righteous people...so when ALL of the dead are raised it is not just referring to the righteous dead or he would not have said ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth.

Yes

 

Yes, he judges both wicked and righteous at the Second Coming, as shown by the Wheat and tares, the good and bad fish, the sheep and the goats and others. All of these events happen at the end of this age...not 3.5 years before the end of this age.

 

Yes, and remember it does not say it is the time of the (righteous) dead that they may be judged, it says it is the time THE DEAD that THEY should be judged...of course the category of THE DEAD again does not just mean the righteous dead...for THE DEAD includes everyone who is dead, just as John 5:28 specified...ALL that are in the graves.

 

Amen

 

This is true but what happens at the resurrection at the Second Coming is stated in 1 Cor. 15:54 is 'When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory"

As you can see, this would not apply to people still in mortal bodies, but only those resurrected / raptured saints would be putting on incorruptible bodies, and of course this happens at the Second Coming and not at the end of the 1000 years.

No...both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the Second Coming...this is one of the main errors entertained by Pre, Post, and Mid trib doctrines. Jesus told Caiphas that he would see him when he comes in the clouds of heaven...How will Caiphas see him coming if he is not resurrected until 1000 years after Jesus comes? 

Rev. 1 states that '...every eye will see him, even those who pierced him..." And in what context is this given? It starts out 'Behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him...' Christ does not come at the end of the 1000 years so those that pierced him can not see him when he comes in the clouds if they are not resurrected until 1000 years later.

Also Wheat and Tares...what does he say happens to BOTH groups? He says 'Let BOTH grow together UNTIL the harvest. The harvest is not at the end of the NEXT age but is specifically said to be 'at the end of THIS AGE.'

The age we are in now ends at the second coming....that is the harvest and it plainly states both groups will be rewarded and judged at the harvest. The wheat are gathered into the barn and the tares are cast into the fire...remember the tares are not cast into the fire at the end of the 1000 years but at the SAME time the sheep are resurrected and rewarded...

Same with the sheep and goats...Both groups are present before Jesus when he comes...The goats are  resurrected and judged at the same time as the sheep. He does not tell the sheep to enter into the joy of the Lord, and then cast the goats into the fire 1000 years later. No. It specifically states "He shall say such and such to the sheep...' and then it uses the word 'THEN' (meaning at the same time) shall he say to the goats.

Same with the good and bad fish...Both groups, good and bad are brought up in the net AT THE SAME TIME and then separated...not a net let down for some good fish, then another net let down for the other good fish, then 1000 years later another net let down for the bad fish. No. It is not drawn to shore until it is full of both good and bad fish.

The misconception is the phrase 'the rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 years are finished.'' Almost everyone uses that verse to refer to the wicked dead and use it as if it trumps every scripture showing both righteous and wicked are resurrected at the Second Coming.

The clarity of this verse can be understood in the context of what Jesus told Caiphas...he said he would see Jesus when he comes in the clouds of heaven. So think closely about what is going on here. Caiphas, representing the wicked dead  has been resurrected and the righteous have also been resurrected as they are coming with Jesus to the earth.

So what are they coming to do? They are coming to execute judgment upon all and fight at Armageddon, as stated in Jude 14:

"Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are  ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds..."

So hold that thought and realize Jesus and the saints are coming down to fight at Armageddon...the wicked dead have also been resurrected at this same time, as represented by Caiphas, and also in fulfillment of John 5:28 that all those who were in the graves have now heard his voice and have come forth." But there is some unfinished business yet to occur, and what would that be?

It is that Jesus and the saints are coming down to a massive slaughter of the kings and captains gathered together at Armageddon. What does that mean? It means both the wicked and righteous have been resurrected, but now all these people are on the agenda to be killed, and this is all happening on the same last day.

So what I am saying is that the armies of the beast are killed AFTER the resurrection of both groups has already taken place. The dead bodies are lying all over and blood up to the horses bridles and the birds are eating their flesh. They have died AFTER the resurrection for both groups has occurred and so what does that mean? It means these are the 'rest of the dead' ON THAT DAY that were killed but of course were not included in the resurrection of the wicked because they were killed after that happened. These are 'the rest of the dead' that will not live again, or be resurrected until the 1000 years are finished. These that are killed here are the beginning point of the next group of people that will live and die during the 1000 years and be subject to the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years.

So in essence we have a resurrection of all the good and the bad from Adam until the Second Coming, and then we have another resurrection for all the good and the bad from the time of the Second Coming until the end of the 1000 years.

There is much more on this subject... but we can look at it more later.

John 5:28 All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...there is no gap here, nor is there a gap in the wheat and tares, nor the good and bad fish, nor the sheep and goats...all these gaps are artificially injected into these texts and many others.

Please provide evidence that the end of the age in the Wheat and tares does not both take place at the same time, at the end of this age.

Please provide evidence that the net is let down for some good fish and then again for some other good fish and then let down again for the bad fish. 

Please provide evidence that those who were persecuting the Thessalonians believers will not be judged at the Second Coming as it states:

2 Thess. 1:6-

"Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on those who trouble you; and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power....

Then it says the magic words...."WHEN HE SHALL COME to be glorified in his saints..." 

What is he talking about? Paul is referring to the wicked people who were persecuting the Thessalonians, and he says God will take vengeance on them...but he doesn't say God will take vengeance on them at the end of the 1000 years, but he said God will take vengeance on them WHEN HE COMES...he does not come at the end of the 1000 years. 

Of course this is in harmony with all the other scriptures...the tares are cast into the fire at the end of this age...the goats are cast into the fire when he comes, the bad fish are separated at the same time the good fish are and many others. 

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(1 Corinthians) 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

(John) 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So yes, indeed, the saints come down with Jesus and they rule with Christ as Priests and Kings for a 1000 years on the earth. 

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

So yes, indeed, the saints come down with Jesus and they rule with Christ as Priests and Kings for a 1000 years on the earth. 

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time On This Earth

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Edited January 24, 2022 by truth7t7

[transmogrified]

41 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Hello Truth 7t7-

Yes, everybody, both good and bad, from Adam until the Second Coming will be resurrected and judged on the last day at the Second Coming. 

 

50 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second) death resurrection has no power.

There is one resurrection in which both good and bad are resurrected on the same day...All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...not the righteous hear his voice at one time and come out of their graves, and then later the wicked hear his voice at another time and come forth. 

The example is the good and bad fish analogy, wherein the net was let down at one time and drawn in only once when the net was full of good and bad fish...it wasn't let down to get good fish, then let down again at another time for the bad fish..

The saints are considered in the first resurrection because they are in Christ who was the first that rose from the dead and was glorified. So the resurrection unto life is considered the first, or the best resurrection compared to the resurrection unto damnation. The word 'first' is 'proto' in the Greek and was translated 'best' when it says the father of the prodigal son in Luke 15:22 said 'Bring in hither the 'best' robe..." It is a comparative statement being used in this context...not that this was the only robe he had, but this one was the best one. This is also alluded to when it says they refused deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Daniel 12 describes it in a similar way...many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life, which would be the better resurrection, and some to everlasting shame. Here again, the righteous did not awake at one time and the unrighteous awake at a different time...they all heard the voice of the Son of God and came forth as in John 5:28.

Paul described it that there would be 'a (singular) resurrection of the dead, both of the just and of the unjust. Not there would be two resurrections, one for the righteous and another for the wicked at a different time. There is no time gap between the resurrection of the two groups. Both are resurrected on the last day at the Second Coming at the same time.

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

1.) (First) Resurrection To Life
2.) (Second) Resurrection To Damnation, The Second Death

 The scripture does say there is a first resurrection, but it does not say the resurrection of the wicked is the second resurrection. It does say there is a second death, but that does not mean there was a second resurrection.

When it says all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth, it does not specify the righteous came forth first...if it would be argued from silence one could say the wicked dead came forth first.. what it does say is 'all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth..."

 

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

(Revelation) 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 After Armageddon, it states in Zech. 14:16 that "...everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts and to keep the feast of tabernacles'

The nations convert at the Second Coming as shown in a number of scriptures...

Ps. 72:11 - "All kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.."

Zech. 2:11 - "...many nations shall be joined unto the Lord in that day, and shall be my people..."

Micah 4:2 -"Many nations shall come and say, come and let us go up unto the mountain of the Lord....and we will walk in his ways and he will teach us his paths...for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Is. 2:4 "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks...nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Daniel 7:14 "And there was given him dominion, and glory and a kingdom, that all people nations and languages should serve him..."

So looking in particular at Is. 2:4 '...and he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people..."

So what is happening here? He is going to judge the nations and rebuke them. What nations? The nations that are left after Armageddon. Does it say he rebukes the nations and kills them all? No, it does not. It says he rebukes them. And what is their response to his rebuke? They convert as it says...they beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks..."

This is the same theme in Daniel 2:35 when the Stone smites the image on the feet and the Stone becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth.

What does that mean? The interpretation is Dan. 7:27 - "And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." 

Of course the imagery of the Stone smiting the image on the feet with the ten toes is the Second Coming...does it say at this time that he burns up the whole earth? No, it does not. It says the kingdom that is under the whole heaven is given to the people of the saints of the most high...

It is even more specific in Rev. 11:15 when it says 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ." 

These are existing kingdoms that come under the jurisdiction of Jesus at the Second Coming. These are the nations the saints are given power over as it states in Rev. 2:26

'To him that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end will I give power over the nations..."

God does not give his saints power over nations that have been burned up...The saints and Jesus then rule over them with a rod of iron as it states in Rev. 2:27-

"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers..."

The saints are not ruling over nations that do not exist...these existing nations that are on the earth at the Second Coming are rebuked and come under the authority and dominion of Jesus and the saints. This is the kingdom Daniel saw that became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

In Rev. 15:4 the song of the redeemed are saying '...Who shall not fear thee O Lord, and glorify thy name, for all nations shall come and worship before thee for thy judgments are made manifest."

These are are the ones John saw out of every nation kindred and tribe that no man could number...The angel told John these were those who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb...these are the nations who were converted at the rebuke of the Lord."

The same group are identified in Rev. 19:5 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations...and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

Here again he smites the nations, but that does not mean he kills them all, for the very next phrase says 'he shall rule them with a rod of iron...'

These are the nations the saints are given power over...his 'smiting' them does not mean he killed them, it means he rebuked them and then he rules over them.

There is a judgment for both the living and the dead at the second coming, and they are not the same. The living nations get rebuked and converted at the Second Coming, but when the wicked dead are resurrected there is no opportunity to change...The sheep and goats, wheat and tares, and good and bad fish, and others,  are all referring to the resurrection of the dead, both good and bad. The wicked dead are cast into the fire in these contexts, but those who are alive at the Second Coming still have opportunity to repent. 

So when do the saints rule over the nations? If the nations are all killed at the Second Coming there are no nations to rule over. If there are no nations to rule over then God would not have made them kings and priests. A king and a priest needs people to rule over and to intercede for. There are many more scriptures on this. 

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

(John) 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(John) 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes

 

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

As we just went over some of the scriptures it is plain to see the nations and this world are not burned with fire at the Second Coming, for when Jesus comes he sets up his kingdom on this earth and the saints rule with him over the nations...if the existing earth is dissolved by fire at the Second Coming, then there would be no nations to rule over...no nations would be left after Armageddon, but it specifically states the nations that are left will go up to Jerusalem to worship the King.

In Rev. 20:7 it states the devil will be loosed out of his prison after the 1000 years are finished...and then what does it say? It says he "goes out to deceive the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth..."

How is he going out to deceive the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth that has been burned up 1000 years before? He doesn't because the earth was still here 1000 years after Jesus came.

The devil gathered these nations together...(they were still existing at the end of the 1000 years) and then what happened? They went up upon the breadth of the earth (that was still in existence and had not been burned up at the Second Coming) and compassed about the camp of the saints, (the camp that was upon the earth that was still in existence from the beginning of the 1000 years) and fire came down from heaven and destroyed them all...

So the fire did not come down from heaven and destroy nations that were not in existence because they had already been destroyed 1000 years before.

There are many other scriptures on this.

2 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

Yes, it is true God will create a new heaven and a new earth but it will not be at the Second Coming, but rather at the end of the 1000 years.

There is another resurrection for people who lived and died during the 1000 year period, which is called the Great White Throne. This is not the same resurrection and day of Judgment that happens at the second coming, but rather occurs 1000 years after the Second Coming.

The resurrection and judgment that takes place at the end of the 1000 years cannot be the same one that happened 1000 years before. It is impossible. The scripture specifically states 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.' Without going in to the identity of who the rest of the dead are, it stands to reason, you can not have one resurrection take place and then another one taking place 1000 years later be the same resurrection happening at the same time.

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Yes the heavens shall pass away and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and it will happen in the day of the Lord...however this is the portion of scripture that Peter tells us not to be ignorant of that one day is as a 1000 years and 1000 years as one day...To say the heavens and the earth are dissolve in the day of the Lord is still scriptural because it does happen at the end of the 1000 years...still within the Day of the Lord.

3 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Just because John saw a new heaven and a new earth, or that he said 'I make all things new,' is not proof it happens at the Second Coming...He is just writing that he saw this take place...its up to us to locate when it took place.

There is no mention of John seeing a new heaven and a new earth until after the 1000 years...as it reads at the end of Rev 19 it is describing the battle of Armageddon and the fowls eating the flesh of the captains and kings...what happens next?

Rev. 20:1  says a mighty angel came and bound the Devil for a thousand years...then what did he see? He saw thrones and they sat upon them...Who is this? These are the saints sitting upon thrones ruling the nations for a thousand years...what happens after that? He sees the devil is loosed at the end of the 1000 years...what happens next? The devil goes about to deceive the nations that are on the earth...then Gog and Magog...then the devil is cast into the lake of fire...then what happens?

He sees a great white throne and it from HERE that he sees the heaven and earth flee away...not 1000 years before this. THIS is where he sees the new heaven and earth and there was no more sea. THIS is where he sees death and hell give up the dead...this is 1000 years later than the Second Coming...this resurrection is NOT THE SAME ONE as at the Second Coming...THIS is where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire...not 1000 years before.

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This shows the powers of heaven being shaken..not burned up

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

This is not the Second coming or the earth being burned up...

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed

Yes, those of Sodom were burned up..the whole world was not...

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is concerning the wicked people who were persecuting the believers at Thessalonica..Paul was saying God was going to take vengeance upon them when he comes...he is referring to these wicked people specifically and the wicked dead as a whole being resurrected and punished with everlasting fire at the Second Coming as shown in the wheat and tares, sheep and goats and others...it does not mean everyone gets killed at the Second Coming

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

This scripture is very illustrative of what has been referred to with the judgment of the living and of the dead...the wicked dead are resurrected and burned in the fire...those who are alive at the Second Coming will be converted, or by this analogy, being washed in the blood of the Lamb is like fullers soap...washing something does not mean you burn it up

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

The earth does not melt until the end of the 1000 years...you have to place these scriptures in their proper place...just because it says 'he uttered his voice' is not proof this is the second coming...the heathen will rage and the kingdoms will be moved at the end of the 1000 years....Gog and Magog

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

First angel sounded...fire mingled with blood

Second angel sounded...great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea

Third part of men killed by fire, smoke and by brim stone that proceeds out of their mouth

If any man hurts the two prophets fire proceeds out of their mouth and kills them

Fourth angel power was given him to scorch men with fire

Just because it says a 'fire devoured before him does not mean the earth was burned up....

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

The word for 'presence' is defined in Strongs #6440 here: 

Quote

in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of, in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of, from before, from before the face of

This fits with what John said in Rev. 20 :11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it from whose face the heaven and earth fled away..."

This happens at the end of the 1000 years, not at the second coming

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

A fire devouring before him does not mean the earth is burned up

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Yes, there are rebukes mentioned in some of the above scriptures where men are scorched with fire, but this does not mean the earth is burned up. 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 This is what happens to the MEN at Armageddon...it does not mean the earth is burned up...

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

This is Gog and Magog at the end of the 1000 years...Fire comes down out of heaven and destroys all the sinners and the earth and the elements shall melt with fervent heat...

 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is talking about the nations who gathered themselves together at the end of the 1000 years around the camp of the saints and fire comes down and devours THEM, not the whole earth. Although this is indeed the time frame when the earth will melt, this scripture is specifically saying fire would come down and devour the people. 

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

Rev. 20:3 specifically says the devil goes out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth...so there were nations, and nations are people,  and people are physical mortal humans...

Rev. 20:4 says he saw thrones and they sat upon them... Thrones would mean a kingdom, kingdom would imply they were ruling over someone, and thrones would mean someone was sitting on them by the phrase 'and they (the saints) sat upon them...

Rev. 20:6 states the saints were reigning as kings and priests...so there was a kingdom or they wouldn't be kings, and they were ruling over people, and people are physical mortal humans, and the thrones were on the earth so there were earthly thrones and an earthly kingdom.

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

I don't know what you mean by Rev. 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lords (spiritual) angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time On This Earth

If 100% percent spiritual realm means physical human beings, and a physical earth then physical no longer means physical...The 'time' element is sometimes mistaken when the KJV says 'time shall be no more...' the better translation is 'he will delay no longer...'

 

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yes.

[truth7t7]

9 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello Truth 7t7-

Yes, everybody, both good and bad, from Adam until the Second Coming will be resurrected and judged on the last day at the Second Coming. 

 

There is one resurrection in which both good and bad are resurrected on the same day...All that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...not the righteous hear his voice at one time and come out of their graves, and then later the wicked hear his voice at another time and come forth. 

The example is the good and bad fish analogy, wherein the net was let down at one time and drawn in only once when the net was full of good and bad fish...it wasn't let down to get good fish, then let down again at another time for the bad fish..

The saints are considered in the first resurrection because they are in Christ who was the first that rose from the dead and was glorified. So the resurrection unto life is considered the first, or the best resurrection compared to the resurrection unto damnation. The word 'first' is 'proto' in the Greek and was translated 'best' when it says the father of the prodigal son in Luke 15:22 said 'Bring in hither the 'best' robe..." It is a comparative statement being used in this context...not that this was the only robe he had, but this one was the best one. This is also alluded to when it says they refused deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection.

Daniel 12 describes it in a similar way...many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...some to life, which would be the better resurrection, and some to everlasting shame. Here again, the righteous did not awake at one time and the unrighteous awake at a different time...they all heard the voice of the Son of God and came forth as in John 5:28.

Paul described it that there would be 'a (singular) resurrection of the dead, both of the just and of the unjust. Not there would be two resurrections, one for the righteous and another for the wicked at a different time. There is no time gap between the resurrection of the two groups. Both are resurrected on the last day at the Second Coming at the same time.

 The scripture does say there is a first resurrection, but it does not say the resurrection of the wicked is the second resurrection. It does say there is a second death, but that does not mean there was a second resurrection.

When it says all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth, it does not specify the righteous came forth first...if it would be argued from silence one could say the wicked dead came forth first.. what it does say is 'all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth..."

 

 After Armageddon, it states in Zech. 14:16 that "...everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts and to keep the feast of tabernacles'

The nations convert at the Second Coming as shown in a number of scriptures...

Ps. 72:11 - "All kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.."

Zech. 2:11 - "...many nations shall be joined unto the Lord in that day, and shall be my people..."

Micah 4:2 -"Many nations shall come and say, come and let us go up unto the mountain of the Lord....and we will walk in his ways and he will teach us his paths...for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Is. 2:4 "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks...nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Daniel 7:14 "And there was given him dominion, and glory and a kingdom, that all people nations and languages should serve him..."

So looking in particular at Is. 2:4 '...and he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people..."

So what is happening here? He is going to judge the nations and rebuke them. What nations? The nations that are left after Armageddon. Does it say he rebukes the nations and kills them all? No, it does not. It says he rebukes them. And what is their response to his rebuke? They convert as it says...they beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks..."

This is the same theme in Daniel 2:35 when the Stone smites the image on the feet and the Stone becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth.

What does that mean? The interpretation is Dan. 7:27 - "And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." 

Of course the imagery of the Stone smiting the image on the feet with the ten toes is the Second Coming...does it say at this time that he burns up the whole earth? No, it does not. It says the kingdom that is under the whole heaven is given to the people of the saints of the most high...

It is even more specific in Rev. 11:15 when it says 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ." 

These are existing kingdoms that come under the jurisdiction of Jesus at the Second Coming. These are the nations the saints are given power over as it states in Rev. 2:26

'To him that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end will I give power over the nations..."

God does not give his saints power over nations that have been burned up...The saints and Jesus then rule over them with a rod of iron as it states in Rev. 2:27-

"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers..."

The saints are not ruling over nations that do not exist...these existing nations that are on the earth at the Second Coming are rebuked and come under the authority and dominion of Jesus and the saints. This is the kingdom Daniel saw that became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

In Rev. 15:4 the song of the redeemed are saying '...Who shall not fear thee O Lord, and glorify thy name, for all nations shall come and worship before thee for thy judgments are made manifest."

These are are the ones John saw out of every nation kindred and tribe that no man could number...The angel told John these were those who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb...these are the nations who were converted at the rebuke of the Lord."

The same group are identified in Rev. 19:5 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations...and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

Here again he smites the nations, but that does not mean he kills them all, for the very next phrase says 'he shall rule them with a rod of iron...'

These are the nations the saints are given power over...his 'smiting' them does not mean he killed them, it means he rebuked them and then he rules over them.

There is a judgment for both the living and the dead at the second coming, and they are not the same. The living nations get rebuked and converted at the Second Coming, but when the wicked dead are resurrected there is no opportunity to change...The sheep and goats, wheat and tares, and good and bad fish, and others,  are all referring to the resurrection of the dead, both good and bad. The wicked dead are cast into the fire in these contexts, but those who are alive at the Second Coming still have opportunity to repent. 

So when do the saints rule over the nations? If the nations are all killed at the Second Coming there are no nations to rule over. If there are no nations to rule over then God would not have made them kings and priests. A king and a priest needs people to rule over and to intercede for. There are many more scriptures on this. 

Yes

 

As we just went over some of the scriptures it is plain to see the nations and this world are not burned with fire at the Second Coming, for when Jesus comes he sets up his kingdom on this earth and the saints rule with him over the nations...if the existing earth is dissolved by fire at the Second Coming, then there would be no nations to rule over...no nations would be left after Armageddon, but it specifically states the nations that are left will go up to Jerusalem to worship the King.

In Rev. 20:7 it states the devil will be loosed out of his prison after the 1000 years are finished...and then what does it say? It says he "goes out to deceive the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth..."

How is he going out to deceive the nations that are in the four quarters of the earth that has been burned up 1000 years before? He doesn't because the earth was still here 1000 years after Jesus came.

The devil gathered these nations together...(they were still existing at the end of the 1000 years) and then what happened? They went up upon the breadth of the earth (that was still in existence and had not been burned up at the Second Coming) and compassed about the camp of the saints, (the camp that was upon the earth that was still in existence from the beginning of the 1000 years) and fire came down from heaven and destroyed them all...

So the fire did not come down from heaven and destroy nations that were not in existence because they had already been destroyed 1000 years before.

There are many other scriptures on this.

Yes, it is true God will create a new heaven and a new earth but it will not be at the Second Coming, but rather at the end of the 1000 years.

There is another resurrection for people who lived and died during the 1000 year period, which is called the Great White Throne. This is not the same resurrection and day of Judgment that happens at the second coming, but rather occurs 1000 years after the Second Coming.

The resurrection and judgment that takes place at the end of the 1000 years cannot be the same one that happened 1000 years before. It is impossible. The scripture specifically states 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.' Without going in to the identity of who the rest of the dead are, it stands to reason, you can not have one resurrection take place and then another one taking place 1000 years later be the same resurrection happening at the same time.

Yes the heavens shall pass away and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and it will happen in the day of the Lord...however this is the portion of scripture that Peter tells us not to be ignorant of that one day is as a 1000 years and 1000 years as one day...To say the heavens and the earth are dissolve in the day of the Lord is still scriptural because it does happen at the end of the 1000 years...still within the Day of the Lord.

Just because John saw a new heaven and a new earth, or that he said 'I make all things new,' is not proof it happens at the Second Coming...He is just writing that he saw this take place...its up to us to locate when it took place.

There is no mention of John seeing a new heaven and a new earth until after the 1000 years...as it reads at the end of Rev 19 it is describing the battle of Armageddon and the fowls eating the flesh of the captains and kings...what happens next?

Rev. 20:1  says a mighty angel came and bound the Devil for a thousand years...then what did he see? He saw thrones and they sat upon them...Who is this? These are the saints sitting upon thrones ruling the nations for a thousand years...what happens after that? He sees the devil is loosed at the end of the 1000 years...what happens next? The devil goes about to deceive the nations that are on the earth...then Gog and Magog...then the devil is cast into the lake of fire...then what happens?

He sees a great white throne and it from HERE that he sees the heaven and earth flee away...not 1000 years before this. THIS is where he sees the new heaven and earth and there was no more sea. THIS is where he sees death and hell give up the dead...this is 1000 years later than the Second Coming...this resurrection is NOT THE SAME ONE as at the Second Coming...THIS is where death and hell are cast into the lake of fire...not 1000 years before.

This shows the powers of heaven being shaken..not burned up

 

This is not the Second coming or the earth being burned up...

 

Yes, those of Sodom were burned up..the whole world was not...

 

This is concerning the wicked people who were persecuting the believers at Thessalonica..Paul was saying God was going to take vengeance upon them when he comes...he is referring to these wicked people specifically and the wicked dead as a whole being resurrected and punished with everlasting fire at the Second Coming as shown in the wheat and tares, sheep and goats and others...it does not mean everyone gets killed at the Second Coming

This scripture is very illustrative of what has been referred to with the judgment of the living and of the dead...the wicked dead are resurrected and burned in the fire...those who are alive at the Second Coming will be converted, or by this analogy, being washed in the blood of the Lamb is like fullers soap...washing something does not mean you burn it up

 

The earth does not melt until the end of the 1000 years...you have to place these scriptures in their proper place...just because it says 'he uttered his voice' is not proof this is the second coming...the heathen will rage and the kingdoms will be moved at the end of the 1000 years....Gog and Magog

 

First angel sounded...fire mingled with blood

Second angel sounded...great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea

Third part of men killed by fire, smoke and by brim stone that proceeds out of their mouth

If any man hurts the two prophets fire proceeds out of their mouth and kills them

Fourth angel power was given him to scorch men with fire

Just because it says a 'fire devoured before him does not mean the earth was burned up....

The word for 'presence' is defined in Strongs #6440 here: 

This fits with what John said in Rev. 20 :11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it from whose face the heaven and earth fled away..."

This happens at the end of the 1000 years, not at the second coming

A fire devouring before him does not mean the earth is burned up

 

Yes, there are rebukes mentioned in some of the above scriptures where men are scorched with fire, but this does not mean the earth is burned up. 

 This is what happens to the MEN at Armageddon...it does not mean the earth is burned up...

 

This is Gog and Magog at the end of the 1000 years...Fire comes down out of heaven and destroys all the sinners and the earth and the elements shall melt with fervent heat...

 

This is talking about the nations who gathered themselves together at the end of the 1000 years around the camp of the saints and fire comes down and devours THEM, not the whole earth. Although this is indeed the time frame when the earth will melt, this scripture is specifically saying fire would come down and devour the people. 

Rev. 20:3 specifically says the devil goes out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth...so there were nations, and nations are people,  and people are physical mortal humans...

Rev. 20:4 says he saw thrones and they sat upon them... Thrones would mean a kingdom, kingdom would imply they were ruling over someone, and thrones would mean someone was sitting on them by the phrase 'and they (the saints) sat upon them...

Rev. 20:6 states the saints were reigning as kings and priests...so there was a kingdom or they wouldn't be kings, and they were ruling over people, and people are physical mortal humans, and the thrones were on the earth so there were earthly thrones and an earthly kingdom.

I don't know what you mean by Rev. 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lords (spiritual) angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ

If 100% percent spiritual realm means physical human beings, and a physical earth then physical no longer means physical...The 'time' element is sometimes mistaken when the KJV says 'time shall be no more...' the better translation is 'he will delay no longer...'

 

Yes.

We strongly disagree

As shown Revelation 20:1-6 is seen 100% in the Lords spiritual, Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

There is no Kingdom on earth, with mortal humans present, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

As you have been shown Jesus Christ will return in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

No need In beating a dead horse, I have clearly shown you my observation of scripture, we strongly disagree