Revelation 10

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, the word "near" means near. 

 

I'm not going to belabor the point with you any further. I asked for any example of "near" not meaning near anywhere in the New Testament and the request has been ignored. Instead, I have received baseless argumentum ad nauseam, ad hominem, and red herring. I have provided scripture as written, plainly read and have not received anything close to parity. 

Moving on now. 

We disagree, and it's my "opinion" the Preterist eschatology in 1st century fulfillment has you blinded to this basic truth, because it destroys the very foundations of Preterist Eschatology, as the generation seen will be eyewitnesses of the Lords return "Future", the day and hour no man knows

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited January 20, 2022 by truth7t7

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Prove the "if". 

 

Do not assume it. Prove its existence first. 

As soon as you give me the scripture

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If an 'age' lasts 2000 years, then everyone within that 2000 years is of that age. 

If that 'age' is the 'age' that consists of the last days then the last days would last 2000 years.  

Even if the last days were within that 'age' then the 'last days' could also last 2000 years. 

My question is
Are there any verses in Scripture that state the last days can't last 2000 years?  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I believe that Peter gave us the timing of the ages.

The first age was the first skies and the first earth, which began with the Creation and perished in the Flood.

The second age, the age in which we currently live, began from the Flood and will carry into the future to the Fire at the end of the age, which will be punctuated with the Great White Throne Judgment and the Perdition (Sentencing) of wicked men.

The third and final age will be the age in which there will be NEW skies and a NEW earth, wherein dwells righteousness. 

[DeighAnn]

39 minutes ago, Josheb said:

No, you are the one needing to provide the scripture.

No, I asked a question and once an answer is given,  then we will proceed.  Until then I will take your refusal as an inability to do so and will rest in peace.  

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

I believe that Peter gave us the timing of the ages.

The first age was the first skies and the first earth, which began with the Creation and perished in the Flood.

The second age, the age in which we currently live, began from the Flood and will carry into the future to the Fire at the end of the age, which will be punctuated with the Great White Throne Judgment and the Perdition (Sentencing) of wicked men.

The third and final age will be the age in which there will be NEW skies and a NEW earth, wherein dwells righteousness. 

Except for that pesky Satan being in the garden when the story unfolds but doesn't begin.  

The sons of God REJOICED and sang and jumped for joy watching the earth being created.  SATAN known by another name at the time was ruling over kingdoms and protecting the MERCY SEAT.  He was of the highest rank and was made better looking, wiser, and better singer than anyone else. 

Then iniquity was found in him.  

THEN DARKNESS WAS UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP

8415. tehom 
Strong's Concordance
tehom: deep, sea, abyss
Original Word: תְּהוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: tehom
Phonetic Spelling: (teh-home')
Definition: deep, sea, abyss
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
deep, sea, abyss
NASB Translation
deep (22), deeps (8), depths (4), ocean depths (1), springs (1).


THEN he was in the garden -  got some laws changed

THEN  then the angels left their habitation

Then there was a flood

Then Christ came to the world -  got some laws changed 

Now we await the rider on the first white horse GIVEN a crown with a fake 'bow' SENT to OVERCOME THE WORLD

who will be DESTROYED by the coming of CHRIST returning for the day of vengeance

at the end of the day, 1000 years the overcomer is released and all evil is blotted out.  

New Heaven and New Earth -  ALL THE FORMER THINGS FORGOTTEN (sound familiar as in that what has been will be and nothing new under the sun?) 

AND IN THE BEGINNING.......

[truth7t7]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

If my dog Tulio were president of the USA...

Some hypotheticals are worth considering. Some are not. I'd simply like to see some proof, or maybe just some evidence that would justify the hypothetical being asserted. Otherwise, it is a waste of time. What is the basis for the "if..."? Don't assume the "if...". Give us a reason to consider the "if" veracious. Do it, if you can, with scripture. 

 

Scripture you provide, not me. 

 

Evidence your own supposition. 

Ole Tulio would probably do a better job than Biden?

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Except for that pesky Satan being in the garden when the story unfolds but doesn't begin.  

The sons of God REJOICED and sang and jumped for joy watching the earth being created.  SATAN known by another name at the time was ruling over kingdoms and protecting the MERCY SEAT.  He was of the highest rank and was made better looking, wiser, and better singer than anyone else. 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Sorry, but you don't know this happened at all. This scenario comes from Job 38:

Job 38:1-11 (KJV)

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (This is AFTER THE FLOOD OF NOACH'S DAY.)
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? (These foundations of the earth are SUNK DOWN.) or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (These "sons of God" are NOT "angels!" They are the HUMAN BEINGS who survived.)
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? (THIS IS THE FLOOD OF NOACH'S DAY.)
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, (There were no clouds before the Flood. See Genesis 2 below.)
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, 'Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed'?" (These are the continental shelves that stop the massive waves from washing over the continents.)

Genesis 2:4-6 (KJV)

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Genesis 4:25-26 (KJV) in connection with Genesis 6:1- (KJV)

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That "the sons of God" saw "the daughters of men" that they were fair; and they TOOK them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said,

"My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

4 There were giants (Hebrew: nfaliym = "wood-cutters; lumberjacks") in the earth in those days; and also after that, when "the sons of God" came in unto "the daughters of men," and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown (popular men).

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his (man's) heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said,

"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

 

There's absolutely NOTHING here that suggests there were angels here, despite what men, like Dr. Tony Evans, have said! And, since it was "the sons of God" who were doing violent deeds against "the daughters of men," then it seems obvious to me that these were terms of PREJUDICE, "the sons of God" being the more evil of the two groups! Because they called THEMSELVES "the sons of God," they thought they were better than mere "men." And, the words "and-they-took to-themselves" in Genesis 6:2 are the Hebrew words "vayyiqchuw naashiym." These women weren't "given" to them by their fathers and families; they were TAKEN by these "sons of God," as if they OWNED them! It was little better than SLAVERY! And, I believe THIS is why God was sorry He had made them!

So, there's not a place in Scripture that suggests that "the sons of God" were "angels." To the contrary, we read in Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV)

5 For unto which of the angels said he (God) at any time, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" And again, "I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

and

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, "Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Then iniquity was found in him.  

This is found in Ezekiel 28:15. But, again, this is NOT talking about the Devil called "haSatan," Hebrew for "the Enemy"; this is talking about the king of Tyre!

Ezekiel 28:11-12 (KJV)

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty ... ."'"

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THEN DARKNESS WAS UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP

8415. tehom 
Strong's Concordance
tehom: deep, sea, abyss
Original Word: תְּהוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: tehom
Phonetic Spelling: (teh-home')
Definition: deep, sea, abyss
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
deep, sea, abyss
NASB Translation
deep (22), deeps (8), depths (4), ocean depths (1), springs (1).

For this, you've gone back to Genesis 1:2, as though the first verse was separate from the Creation account! THERE IS NO "GAP" BETWEEN GENESIS 1:1 AND GENESIS 1:2! As is typical in Hebrew literature, there is a SUMMATION of what is to follow at the beginning of the text!

The simple proof of this is found in the Hebrew words translated "the heaven" and "the earth," "et hashaamaayim v'et haa'aarets," in Genesis 1:1.

These SAME WORDS (without the definite-article prefix, "ha-") are found as the names for what they represent given THE FIRST TIME to these things!

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven" (Hebrew: shaamayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:9-13 (KJV)

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth" (Hebrew: 'erets); and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas" (Hebrew: mayim): and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth":

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

THESE WERE THE NAMES GIVEN TO THESE THINGS, THE FIRMAMENT (EXPANSE) AND THE DRY GROUND, FOR THE FIRST TIME!

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

THEN he was in the garden -  got some laws changed

THEN  then the angels left their habitation

Then there was a flood

Then Christ came to the world -  got some laws changed 

Now we await the rider on the first white horse GIVEN a crown with a fake 'bow' SENT to OVERCOME THE WORLD

who will be DESTROYED by the coming of CHRIST returning for the day of vengeance

at the end of the day, 1000 years the overcomer is released and all evil is blotted out.  

New Heaven and New Earth -  ALL THE FORMER THINGS FORGOTTEN (sound familiar as in that what has been will be and nothing new under the sun?) 

AND IN THE BEGINNING.......

No, you've partially quoted Ecclesiastes 1:9:

Ecclesiastes 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

2 "Vanity of vanities," saith the Preacher, "vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

(This is said as seen from our perspective here on the surface of the earth.)

6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.

(This is talking about the cyclonic pattern of weather.)

7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

(This is the water cycle.)

8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, 'See, this is new'? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

 

The key words in this passage are "under the sun!" These place this passage FIRMLY WITHIN the Creation! It does NOT extend outside of the Creation!

[DeighAnn]

17 hours ago, Josheb said:

No justification for asking the question has been provided. No one is required to answer an unjustified, unsubstantiated, question based on arbitrary assumptions. My answer to the question is: Until I have some justification for the premise upon which the question is based and some scriptural evidence for its relevance and veracity it is a question for which no answer should be expected. 

 

If an age lasts ten minutes...
If an age lasts ten years...
If an age lasts one human lifetime...
If an age is equivalent to a generation...
If an age lasts 2000 years...
If an age lasts 14,000 years...
If an age lasts a millennium of millennia...

 

What?????? 

What is the basis for selecting "2000 years"? The fact we're living 2000 years after Jesus spoke on the Mount of Olives? What is the basis for using our time period as a measure of an age? If Jesus does not come back in this century, then folks will be hypothesizing an age is 2100 years. Then in the next century they'll speculate an age is 2000 years, then 3000 years, then 4000....... 

 

And your question is worded in the negative. The entire conversation began because someone asserted the last days lasts 2000 years. Isn't the onus of that poster to prove the affirmative position before anyone argues an absence of something? 

Are there any verses in Scripture that state the last days can't last 2000 years? 

 

There are not explicit statements precluding that possibility. If there were then these posts would not exist. 

However, the moment a person connects the last days with the ends of the age there are scriptures implicitly precluding the last days from lasting 2000 years because it wasn't the ages that were occurring in the first century it was the ends of the ages that then existed. The question then becomes "Can an end of the last days take 2000 years of more?" 

No matter how it is framed my question remains: What is the scriptural basis for any of these suppositions? 

 

And, so far, you are refusing to even try. 

 

The ends of the ages came upon the first century Church according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 10. He also said all those things written in the Old Testament were intended for the Christians in the first century, the Christians upon whom the ends of the ages had come. 

 

If a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day the thousand-year bondage of satan will last only one day. The reign of Jesus will last one day. This is the kind of reasoning argued in eschatology. God told John the events described were at hand; they were near. When does God ever use the word "near" to mean anything other than near? The answer is (supposedly) a day is like a thousand years. 

??????? 

There is no mention of the word "near" in 2 Peter. 2:8!!! According to Peter a thousand years is like a day so the thousand years of Revelation must really be one day. 

 

 

Reason is a gift from God. 

 

Tell me what the scriptural basis for assuming an age lasts 2000 years? If 2000 years is an age, then the age prior to Jesus began with Jacob. What would be the scriptural basis for setting a fixed amount of time to an "age"? 

 

Just give providing some scriptural basis a try. I'm rooting for you. 

Its all relative. 

So, again, or is it the 3rd time now?, please answer the question. If you can't please just admit that you can't,  so we can move on.  And as I told you before,  I am at peace with it.   
 

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The key words in this passage are "under the sun!" These place this passage FIRMLY WITHIN the Creation! It does NOT extend outside of the Creation!

Hi Retro,
I see how you discern the words of God through the laws of language but could you share with me something that has been spiritually discerned by the leading of the Holy Spirit?  I am just wondering if that is where the disconnect is stemming from.  

Never the less, the FACTS REMAIN.  Satan, created the full pattern, ruling kingdoms, protecting the Mercy seat till INIQUITY found in him HIM IN THE GARDEN clearly making the GARDEN impossible to be 'in the beginning'.  What ever the WORDS lead you to believe, that is just the plain unvarnished truth.  

Heaven is real and it isn't just 'sky' no matter what the 'word' definition is.  It seems no matter how many verses speak to the subject, one at a time they are negated for one reason or another.  For me, not only the preponderance of evidence  suggests there was an age before this one that Satan was a ruler in it and that iniquity was found in him and that the earth became null and void (a 'STATE' GOD HIMSELF SAYS He didn't create it in) but the leading of the Holy Spirit make it as real as this computer I am typing on, albeit you don't believe it.  

God backs up what He tells us in other parts, I see them.  Everything wasn't just status quo in the days of Noah. How can we be positive?  The flood.  The strange flesh.  The angels who left their estates.  The giants.  I understand you write it off through word definitions, I don't.  The spirit of the words is where I am lead.  

'On earth as it is in heaven'.  We know there is a huge society in heaven right now.  We know there are thrones and elders and beasts angels and armies in heaven.  We know they are not only sent to the earth we know they leave on their own.  We know they warn of problems, give prophecy, create and fix problems here on earth.  

I believe the words of God are perfect and read them as such, even KNOWING that they have had evil hands on them, but as God only opens my eyes when I am ready I am sure He blinds me to those 'errors' also.  I approach it all in complete faith in the leading of the Holy Spirit. Do you?  Is that your 'go to' also?  Do you find yourself building upon the foundation or do you find yourself tearing down?  

I believe 'heaven' is a lot more involved in what takes place here than we realize. 


d

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day  7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
 

Ephesians 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men

Ephesians 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven neither is there respect of persons with him.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood,

BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES
against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness IN HIGH PLACES 

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day and having done all to stand.


Daniel 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days for yet the vision is for many days.

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (This is AFTER THE FLOOD OF NOACH'S DAY.)
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? (These foundations of the earth are SUNK DOWN.) or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (These "sons of God" are NOT "angels!" They are the HUMAN BEINGS who survived.)
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? (THIS IS THE FLOOD OF NOACH'S DAY.)
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, (There were no clouds before the Flood. See Genesis 2 below.)
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, 'Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed'?" (These are the continental shelves that stop the massive waves from washing over the continents.)

Again, SOUNDS so much like it could be truth BUT IS IT?  DO YOU BELIEVE what you are putting forth yourself or are you blinded by pride of what you think you know?  JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUTH.  THE ONLY TRUTH TO BE FOUND IS 'WHAT IS WRITTEN', never in HATH GOD SAID?.  

LAID THE FOUNDATION comes AFTER THE FLOOD?  Seriously?  FOUNDATION.  
3245. yasad 
Strong's Concordance
yasad: to establish, found, fix
Original Word: יָסַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: yasad
Phonetic Spelling: (yaw-sad')
Definition: to establish, found, fix


DO you ALSO believe that was when GOD DETERMINED THE MEASUREMENTS OF THE EARTH?  or STRETCHED the line upon it?  THAT MAKES NO SENSE. 

Everything HERE ONLY FITS CREATION, NOT THINGS THAT WOULD NEED TO TAKE PLACE AFTER A FLOOD.  

We need to disregard bias, and look at the evidence.  


Do you also believe THAT IS WHEN THE CORNERSTONE WAS LAID?  AFTER NOAHS FLOOD?  I am looking forward to these questions never being addressed.  

I do agree about it not raining till the flood


Don't you get tired of these brick walls?  Wouldn't it just be easier to accept what is written and go from there? 

The 'DOORS' or the continental shelves were placed when?  WHEN the sea burst forth FROM THE WOMB.  


WHEN exactly were ALL the sons of God together at once?

HATH GOD SAID 'just the sons that survived'
OR
IS IT WRITTEN 'ALL the sons of God'


So many issues when we presume instead of absorb.