Does Modern Church Structure Closely Model the NT Church?

[Starise]

I see something. I'm not sure if it is what you intended.

[Anne2]

4 minutes ago, Starise said:

I see something. I'm not sure if it is what you intended.

That is exactly how it appeared on my end. But something new has been appearing in my response box for quite sometime. I don't know where it came from but it is interferring I think. It is a paperclip which says drag files to attatch, or choose files. Then underneath it says accepted file types. With a series of grouped letters and file sizes. I tied to put it into my response so you could see it and I cannot. Then on the other side is a drop down box which is labeled other media. I have no clue why it is in there. I just assumed it was a function given by worthy and everyone had it after so many posts. But maybe not?

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

That is exactly how it appeared on my end. But something new has been appearing in my response box for quite sometime. I don't know where it came from but it is interferring I think. It is a paperclip which says drag files to attatch, or choose files. Then underneath it says accepted file types. With a series of grouped letters and file sizes. I tied to put it into my response so you could see it and I cannot. Then on the other side is a drop down box which is labeled other media. I have no clue why it is in there. I just assumed it was a function given by worthy and everyone had it after so many posts. But maybe not?

Those boxes, that funcionality will not interfere with your posts. They are an integral part of this particular forum software, which is one o the two best available. Generaly easier to use, but if you are used to another…a learning curve is dealt with.

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Those boxes, that funcionality will not interfere with your posts. They are an integral part of this particular forum software, which is one o the two best available. Generaly easier to use, but if you are used to another…a learning curve is dealt with.

 thank you, so it is all a feature from worthy? Makes me feel better about that. I think in my testings I clicked on it, because it did some stuff that I have no clue how to use it. LOL

[Starise]

8 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

That is exactly how it appeared on my end. But something new has been appearing in my response box for quite sometime. I don't know where it came from but it is interferring I think. It is a paperclip which says drag files to attatch, or choose files. Then underneath it says accepted file types. With a series of grouped letters and file sizes. I tied to put it into my response so you could see it and I cannot. Then on the other side is a drop down box which is labeled other media. I have no clue why it is in there. I just assumed it was a function given by worthy and everyone had it after so many posts. But maybe not?

If you drag a picture over the paper clip it lets you attach pictures and files, like this-

 

[Anne2]

Just now, Starise said:

If you drag a picture over the paper clip it lets you attach pictures and files, like this-

 

LOL thank you that's cute.

[Anne2]

7 hours ago, Starise said:

I would guess coming from a Jewish background and later becoming a Messianic Jew is far different than my background or maybe a few others. It is clear there are differences.

Many protestant churches have a table up front made just for what they call the "Lords Supper" or the "Lord's Table". The table itself often has-

" Do this in remembrance of Me" written on the front of the table. The deacons and elders assist in distributing the bread and the grape juice, or in some cases it's real wine to the congregation. Different churches do it at different intervals. My church does it once a month. My last church did it once every three months. When the elements are passed around scripture is read concerning Christ's sacrifice and our need to be thankful and remember.

I never seen that last meal of Jesus as a passover meal. It was simply a meal that Jesus used the bread and the wine to signify what was to take place. I see the passover as a thing told only to the Jews to do. In fact, Paul never demanded the Gentiles participate in any of these things to my knowledge.

Until Paul we had a predominantly Jewish church, after Paul and the rest who went to take the message to the Gentiles, an integration occurred.

This caused a stir, because many of the Jews could not grasp that this change had taken place. This is understandable because for a very long time they had done things a different way. It's whole "Old dog new tricks" thing.

In a way things were different I think. But again I tend to think covenantally, so it is the covenants that are the source of that. Jesus in his earthly ministry, was an apostle to the Jew's. Gentiles were pretty much off to the side, making an appearance here and there. His focus was his kinsman in the flesh. John's baptism was administered from John and then his disciples under Christ. Jew's were being baptized for the remission of sin. Gentiles however baptism came after baptism of the holy spirit. It was the order that was different.

An astonishing thing when preaching to Cornelius....

10:44   While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46  For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Then answered Peter,

Why forbid baptism?
47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Then what?

1   And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2  And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
3  Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.
 

They ate something with someone that was not supposed to be eaten with the uncircumcision??

This was something that was not just any food

Offerings brought to God

Deut12: 14  But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.

Was it something distinguished as an offering?

Not as common food, That the clean as well as the unclean alike would eat?
15  Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.
 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Anne2

[Alive]

I believe it was the Lord who orchesfrated a departure from the Judaic influence to set the early church free and avoid a cookie cutter expression.

in other words diversity rather than a static experience. Alive and vibrant with local flavor...so to speak.

[Anne2]

55 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Sister, I wholly agree with you: problems exist. 

However, there are two very important realities that must be accepted in an op like this. The first is the definition of the Church. Are going to use a contemporary and extra-biblical definition? Or are we going to use the term as the Bible asserts it? The second follows immediately on the heels of the first because the moment we start using an extra-biblical definition of the Church then the op is conceded: THAT is a modern departure from the New Testament Church!!! Everything concerning "structure" flows immediately from the definition(s) we use. Terms like "invisible church" are modern inventions. To call a building a "church" as a post-scriptural invention. It muddies the waters. If, however, we use the term as the scriptures use the term then we ALL end up having a much different conversation. 

Your concerns about the Messianic movement are shared, at least a little. One of the wonderful realities about the Church NT-era and modern is its diversity. Differences can create division, but they don't do so inherently. They do so because of an individual's or group's biases or prejudices. Fred doesn't like the fact Ricky is different from Fred so Fred judges Ricky and judges him to be lesser-than. On their worse days one or both of them are deemed heretics even though both their views may fall within the pale of orthodoxy. It the stuff that falls outside the pale that should concern us. I know Messianic believers who celebrate the feasts as commemorations of Christ and his fulfillment of those feasts. I suspect what you're observing is the influence of Dispensationalism on a sect or section within the Messianic view that not all Messianics share. Or maybe those I observe are the minority!  

I've been reading a pair of books of Dispensationalism, one by Michael Vlach and the other by J. Michael Lester and I've been wondering about this question whether or not a Jew is still a Jew after having converted to Christ. In my opinion they cease to be Jews. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. Seems fairly plain, simple, and blunt to me. In the Bible, ALL the early converts were consider Jews! They were deemed a sect of Judaism called "The Way".

 

Acts 9:1-2
Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

Acts 19:9-10, 21-23
But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.  This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.... Now after these things were finished, Paul purposed in the Spirit to go to Jerusalem after he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."  And having sent into Macedonia two of those who ministered to him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.  About that time there occurred no small disturbance concerning the Way.

Acts 24:14-23
"But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.  "In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.  "Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings; in which they found me occupied in the temple, having been purified, without any crowd or uproar. But there were some Jews from Asia — who ought to have been present before you and to make accusation, if they should have anything against me.  "Or else let these men themselves tell what misdeed they found when I stood before the Council, other than for this one statement which I shouted out while standing among them, 'For the resurrection of the dead I am on trial before you today.'"  But Felix, having a more exact knowledge about the Way, put them off, saying, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I will decide your case."  Then he gave orders to the centurion for him to be kept in custody and yet have some freedom, and not to prevent any of his friends from ministering to him. 

 

 

 

The reason for this is because they met in the temple and later the synagogues. They didn't meet in homes. They gathered daily for teaching and service in the common area of the temple because the Gentile convert weren't allowed in the inner chambers. That all changed as the persecution increased because the old-line Jews can't be having talk of the Messiah having come and dying by their own hand in collusion with the Roman occupiers. The Sadducees (the larger and older of the two main sects) can't have it being taught there is life after death, and it is dependent upon faith in a dead man who supposedly came back from the dead; faith and not obedience to Moses' Law. The notion the old covenant is abrogated, and the phylactery-wearing priests are condemned is intolerable. Gotta kill them, too. 

So, the members of The Way got chased out of the temple and the synagogues and they started meeting in folks' homes. While this was happening Gentiles in all the cities where the gospel was taken began to come to Christ. By the time the gospel reached Antioch they began to be called "little Christs," or Christians. 

 

Acts 11:19-26
So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone.  But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who came to Antioch and began speaking to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus.  And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a large number who believed turned to the Lord.  The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.  Then when he arrived and witnessed the grace of God, he rejoiced and began to encourage them all with resolute heart to remain true to the Lord; for he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And considerable numbers were brought to the Lord.  And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. 

 

So gradually the converts to Christ stopped being exclusively Jewish, the Jewish and Gentile converts stopped being called "The Way" and were increasingly called "Christians". They also stopped meeting in the synagogues and since the pagan temples were thoroughly out of bounds, they met in small groups in converts' houses. Archeologically speaking, the first church building was an addition built onto the home a wealthy convert. 

There is an important exception to this. 

That exception is the ekklesia. 

That is what the converts to Christ were called in scripture. They were those who were "called out." It's worth noting that when the Jews translated their scriptures into Greek (The Septuagint) they used the word "church" in place of "assembly"!  The Jews themselves drew a connection between "The Assembly" and "Those Called Out." It was the Jews themselves that drew a linguistic and theological connection between qahal and ekklesia. 

 

So when this op asks about comparisons between the "modern church" and the "NT church" the op itself has fallen prey to a non-NT-Church practice! There's only one Church in the Bible and that Church is those of both Jewish and Gentile origin who have been called out of the world into service to God through His resurrected Son. Sects within Christianity that have bad thinking, bad doctrine, and bad practice are not the Church. The obvious examples are the JWs and LDS. They use the language of "Jesus," but they mean entirely different things when they use the term. They are NOT the Church. 

If the Messianics you're referencing don't subscribe to core Christian doctrine and practice, then they are not the Church. That could be said of any group, large or small, within the religion bearing our Lord and Savior's name. Just as not all Israel is Israel, not all Christians are Christians. The differences they have between themselves and the NT-era Church aren't buildings, stages, lecterns, and backwards collars. 

 

Ultimately, I think your concerns deserve their own op because the Messianics are not representative of the modern Church. Your points are well taken but I'm not sure this thread can devote sufficient space to that matter without huge digression. 

 

Ok thank you Josheb. I appreciate you taking the time with it. I may not always see eye to eye with you, but I do respect your opinions and knowledge. And am attempting to learn a bit too!<:-)

[Anne2]

48 minutes ago, Alive said:

I believe it was the Lord who orchesfrated a departure from the Judaic influence to set the early church free and avoid a cookie cutter expression.

in other words diversity rather than a static experience. Alive and vibrant with local flavor...so to speak.

Not all Messianics are the same. They are a diverse group and can be of great help in looking at scripture from a better view in some instances. It was those specific teachings that bothered me. Not their expression of faith.