Jerusalem is Falling #2

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2 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

Ok, you have to understand what the Bible means when it says that 'Babylon is fallen'. You look in history and you find that the pagan systems of worship after Noah, became prominent in the Mesopotamian region. And this is where Babyon rose up with its  stone idols and symbols of sun worship with statues with halos, various pagan crosses,  tridents,  globes as symbols of rulership of the universe, sacred hearts, and more... and of course, prayer beads for repetitive prayers even though the Bible admonishes:

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Matthew 6:7

The Babylonian system of worship has essentially been maintained even is hidden as mystery's or ceremonies or otherwise to modern day as we see in the church of Rome. The ancient Chaldeans of Babylon worshipped  male and female gods representing the sun god and there were largely three aspects to this system of sun worship, representing the father, mother, and the son.

It spread from Babylon as the Priest fled when the Medes and Persians invaded, and they ended up in Pergamon or Pergamum (Greek: Πέργαμον), also referred to by its Greek form Pergamos . Thus you see the text in the Bible...

Revelation 2:12-13 King James Version

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Now the Greeks had picked up and adopt the Babylonian gods and the Greek Doura or Greek temple in Mesopotamia, freely allowed the gods of Babylon. The Greeks picked up the Babylonian system of worship and restored many of its pagan temples of worship, like Bel’s temple at Babylon.  The Babylonian gods took Greek names, as we see the Greek name of one their idols was Zeus Olympus, but it was clearly the old Babylonian sun-god. The foreign gods were basically Hellenized and spread throughout the Greek world. 

By the second century the Roman Empire annexed Mesopotamia to its rule, and the Babylonian system moved westward and into Rome, where we see it in the various rituals and ceremonies of the Roman Catholic Church. Babylonian sun-worship and the mystery religions became the official religions of Rome, as we can see in the many temples to the Sol Invictus (the invincible Sun) . It has basically taken the Babylonian system of worship and hidden it under a cover of "Christianizing" paganism. So its not hard to see how the apostles called Rome "Babylon" even back then...

1 Peter 5:13

The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Yes, I agree with everything that you have said.

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Please consider this, that the Babylonian system had united with and corrupted unbelieving Israel being manifested in Caesar worship.

This is shown in the alliance of the priests and scribes with Rome at the birth of Jesus in Matt 2:4, and His crucifixion, John 19:15.

The priests had abandoned God and united themselves with Rome.

So by the time the Revelation was written, after 70 AD, the unbelieving branches were captives in Rome and uniting with Rome against the believing branches of Israel, the Pentecost kingdom Israel/church, shown in the Rev 2:9, and Rev 3:9.

Rev 17, is the picture of the harlot woman Israel who was branded as a slave to the Roman Babylon. She is captive in Babylon, wearing the name of Babylon, possessed by Babylon, Rome, but she would be considered a separate entity, harlot Israel.

John, in saying that Babylon had fallen was referring to the unbelieving branches that had united themselves with Rome in Jerusalem, calling them Babylon. Yes, Babylon is Rome, but the unbelieving broken branches that had united themselves with Rome, had made themselves part of the Roman/Babylonian system, becoming Babylon themselves. No longer the spirit of Israel, but now the spirit of Babylon, becoming Babylon.

So, Babylon has fallen, refers to Jerusalem and the unbelieving branches in Jerusalem that were destroyed before the writing of the Revelation.

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[abcdef]

18 hours ago, Alive said:

Thank you for responding--I appreciate it.

What I find problamatic is looking at Putin, Russia, the Ukraine, etc. and building a case for any imminent anything related to one's view of end time events.

I see it as pure speculation. I have been hearing these things since the 70's.

IMO--its better to just couch current events in terms of--"hey this is interesting" and mayhaps it is connected to scriptural pronouncements. Constant wrong prognostications makes us look silly.

IMO

As I am want to say and repeat--so many are sure that the Lord has shown them a thing (end times) and yet different brethren differ widely in "what they have been shown".

Something in me grouses at this...my failing, I suppose.

:-)

Think about this,

Jesus opens the 7 sealed scroll in front of John at the writing of the Revelation.

But then, it doesn't tell what the scroll says at that time, the narrative passes directly into the events of the 7 trumpets. 

We are finally told what the scroll says in Rev 10:8-11, and Rev 11:1-13. It is the story of the 2 witnesses who are faithful Christian Israel who fled into the wilderness of the gentile nations in the 70 AD ish time period and then are restored to Jerusalem.

The significance of this delay in the revealing the contents of the scroll is showing that the meaning of the scroll will not be revealed until after the 6th trumpet blows.

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The 6th trumpet shows the 200 mill man army crossing the Euphrates River headed towards Jerusalem, which has already begun.

So the idea would be that we can't understand the final events contained in the scroll until after the 6th trumpet has blown.

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The passage of Rev 10, which is shown after the 6th trumpet, suggests that close to the time that the 7th trumpet is blown that the prophecies concerning Israel in the Revelation would be revealed and understood, Rev 10:7.

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After the contents of the scroll are revealed as the story of the 2 witness, the narrative reverts back to the trumpets, the 7th trumpet.

The 7th trumpet shows the end of the seals/trumpets narrative which ends with the 2nd resurrection, the revealing of Jesus in heaven (the ark of the covenant), and the judgment.

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So what this means is that we will understand the scriptural events that take place in the time between the 6th and 7th trumpets, but only after the 6th trumpet has blown and the events of the 6th trumpet have begun to take place. Which would be that armies from across the Euphrates are moving to attack Jerusalem restored to Israel.

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Think about it.

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Which is worse,

Trying to understand the prophecies  and be wrong,

Or Understanding the prophecies correctly and not saying anything as they come to pass? 

 

 

[abcdef]

 

Friends, I don't want to disrupt or derail other people's threads and their conversations, but sometimes my viewpoint is a little different, so I will say what I have to say on this thread. It is not that I don't enjoy reading them and seeing their point of view, I do, and I am thankful that they love Jesus and the scriptures, but when we start discussing the details and related scriptures it seems that sometimes I derail the original intent of the author. 

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The conversation surrounding the 7th/last trumpet is a good one.

There was a question about the 7 trumpets, when they are blown, and their significance.

I have associated the 7 trumpets with the trumpets of Jericho. When the 7th trumpet blows, the walls fall down. In my thoughts I see the 7th trumpet of the Revelation as the world falling down at the final resurrection. (There are only 2, 1 Cor 15:23-24).

There are some who might agree.

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This opens the question, "What are the 7 trumpets and when do they sound?"

1st, I don't think that they will be heard on planet earth. They are shown to John with Jesus at the writing of the Revelation.

Well then, how can we tell when they have sounded?

The answer seems to be that we can tell by the results of the trumpets after they sound.

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Now, many, are saying that the results of the trumpets sounding should be taken as literally written, without any symbolism at all, but even those who say that the results should always be literal, will admit that the Revelation has symbolism.

Then the question is, "What is literal and what is not?"

This is where the interpretations differ.

The symbols of the Revelation are taken as the intended subject instead of what the symbols represent.

One example might be Rev 13:1, some see the beast rising out of the sea as a literal animal coming out of a literal body of water. Dan 7:1-7, 2-3, shows that the beasts of Dan 7 are nations, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. The literal interpretation of the beast nations being an animals and a body of water distorts the meaning, some may agree. 

Are they literal nations? Yes. But the nations are described by symbols, lion, bear, and leopard, for example.

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Now back to the trumpets.

The results of the trumpets are real events that show the relationship between God and the unbelieving branches of the children of Israel, who rejected Jesus and the Pentecost kingdom of Israel exclusively, not the planet and the gentile nations.

The effects of the withdrawing of the blessings of protection of God are shown in symbolism about un believing Israel from 70 ad (trumpets) until the present, and the near future.

The trumpets effect the gentile nations because the scriptures that lead to God are diminished, the sun is darkened to unbelieving Israel, and the gentile nations are the ones who carry out the attacks on the children of Israel, mainly Rome over the centuries.

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The Rev 4:1-2 verses show that LITERALLY only John is taken through the door in heaven. Not the Pentecost kingdom of Israel (church).

This is a prime example of the literal being taken as symbolic by some, where there is not supporting evidence to do so.  

This distortion, that Rev 4:1-2, is a resur/rapt, disrupts the entire timeline of the seals/trumpets and the Revelation.

It is not a resur/rapt.

The seals show the time between the 37 AD ish rejection of the gospel Pentecost kingdom and the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. The trumpets show the time after 70 AD.

The Rev 4:1-2, distortion is an attempt to make the Revelation entirely future, which it is not. This distortion is an attempt to exclude Rome from being the iron 4th beast nation and the Bishop of Rome as the Antichrist. 

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(To be continued.)

[Alive]

Try as I may, I cannot fathom what they thought these things meant, but I suspect that it was relevant to them and that there was a clear consensus among the brethren as to the meaning. That the Lord opened their eyes to the meaning.

Why wouldn't He?

Rev. 1:1 (NAS20S)   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, ² who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, everything that he saw. ³ Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Message to the Seven Churches

Rev. 1:4 (NAS20S)    John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne, ⁵ and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— ⁶ and He made us into a kingdom, priests to   His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. ⁷ BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Rev. 1:8 (NAS20S)   “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “ who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The Patmos Vision

Rev. 1:9 (NAS20S)    I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and   perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. ¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, ¹¹ saying, “ Write on a scroll what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”

[Hobie_]

On 2/10/2022 at 9:47 PM, abcdef said:

Yes, I agree with everything that you have said.

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Please consider this, that the Babylonian system had united with and corrupted unbelieving Israel being manifested in Caesar worship.

This is shown in the alliance of the priests and scribes with Rome at the birth of Jesus in Matt 2:4, and His crucifixion, John 19:15.

The priests had abandoned God and united themselves with Rome.

So by the time the Revelation was written, after 70 AD, the unbelieving branches were captives in Rome and uniting with Rome against the believing branches of Israel, the Pentecost kingdom Israel/church, shown in the Rev 2:9, and Rev 3:9.

Rev 17, is the picture of the harlot woman Israel who was branded as a slave to the Roman Babylon. She is captive in Babylon, wearing the name of Babylon, possessed by Babylon, Rome, but she would be considered a separate entity, harlot Israel.

John, in saying that Babylon had fallen was referring to the unbelieving branches that had united themselves with Rome in Jerusalem, calling them Babylon. Yes, Babylon is Rome, but the unbelieving broken branches that had united themselves with Rome, had made themselves part of the Roman/Babylonian system, becoming Babylon themselves. No longer the spirit of Israel, but now the spirit of Babylon, becoming Babylon.

So, Babylon has fallen, refers to Jerusalem and the unbelieving branches in Jerusalem that were destroyed before the writing of the Revelation.

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The thing is, that Jerusalem was basically wiped out by the Roman armies in AD 70. They knocked down the walls and were so angry they filled up the Temple mount with tons of dirt and rock and stopped the sacrificial service to this day. The Christians in Jerusalem had to flee to east across the Jordan to Pella and then went up north and set up in Antioch and formed their center of studies during the early church, which became the new Christian center.  Antioch was the western end of the caravan routes over which goods were brought from the east and was at the crossroads of the Empire for that area so it led to much growth and prosperity.  Antioch was one of the largest cities in the Roman Empire at that time and was home to a large and thriving Jewish community. So if anything, it was Antioch that was the great Christian center not Jerusalem, as it was was for all intents and purposes a backwater. 

Rome on the other hand, was the center of the Roman Empire, and along with Alexandria, became the other two centers of Christianity. In the early church, the bishop of Rome now became regarded as a Patriarchate, i.e. an autonomous diocese along with Alexandria and Antioch, and soon became the dominant center. It became more prominent and by the second century was seen basically as in charge of those things Christian and ruling over the church as we see at the Council of Nicaea in 325. The church at Rome, or the Papacy was given more and more power as the western part of the empire ebbed and we see by 538 the transition from the Pagan Roman Empire to the Papal power of Rome. It was at this time since Emperor Justinian's decree of 533, which made the bishop of Rome,  chief bishop of all the churches, that the supremacy of the bishop of Rome over the Church was actually implemented by the bishop of Rome, Vigilius. And were was Jerusalem in all this, nothing, and what power on the church and Christians, not much if any, even as the crusaders fought over it... And we dont see a change until after WWII when the Jews, not Christians, came back to restore what little they could....  

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-for-the-history-of-jerusalem-4500-bce-present

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Hobie_

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4 hours ago, Alive said:

Try as I may, I cannot fathom what they thought these things meant, but I suspect that it was relevant to them and that there was a clear consensus among the brethren as to the meaning. That the Lord opened their eyes to the meaning.

Why wouldn't He?

I think that the Christians of the 85-96 AD time period would have understood almost everything about the Revelation.

1. This is because the symbolism comes from the OT.

2. They understood that there were only 2 resurrections (Jesus and the coming for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet) and that the symbols were describing the events between the 2 resurrections.

3. They understood perfectly that the beast was Caesar and Rome.

4. That the Revelation was written to the children of Israel primarily and is not centered on the gentiles or the planet earth.

5. The Revelation answers the biggest question for the children of Israel in that time period, which was, "Will Jerusalem be restored to Israel and when?"

They probably understood it better than most Christians today, it sometimes seems.

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As mentioned in previous posts, the time line is not given in the years of men, but is shown by different events and situations the revolve around the children of Israel, both faithful (kingdom/church) and those who rejected the gospel Pentecost kingdom.

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The Seals/Trumpets are about the unfaithful broken branches.

The 2 witnesses are faithful Israel, the gospel Pentecost kingdom (church) that flees into the wilderness of the gentile nations and is chased to the extent of the Roman Empires influence, Rev 12:15-16.

They are both the same timeline, 37 AD ish through the 2nd resurrection. They are just centered on the 2 different groups of the children of Israel during that time.

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When we read the Revelation we should remember that the letters may have had the authorities of Rome reading them. Of course you couldn't say or write anything criticizing Caesar or Rome without being killed.

But you probably could say that Babylon was a nasty beast and get away with it.

Israel would understand because they would know the "beasts" of Daniel 7 were about the gentile nations that ruled over the children of Israel.

So after the destruction of Jerusalem, it would be clear the Roman Empire was the 4th beast. There was no need to say "Rome" because the passages about "the beast" in Daniel would be understood as Rome in that 1st century.

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4 hours ago, Alive said:

Rev. 1:1 (NAS20S)   The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, ² who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, everything that he saw. ³ Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it;

 

4 hours ago, Alive said:

for the time is near.

Many say that this phrase refers to the 70 ish destruction of Jerusalem.

Well, first, whether the Revelation was written before the destruction or after, it still has the same meaning about the events that take place between the 2 resurrections, that is, it really doesn't matter to the extent that it changes the meaning of the texts.

Jerusalem is destroyed by the beast nation and the people of Israel are in troubled times.

Jesus didn't tell John when the second resurrection would be in the years of men, Jesus just gives the circumstances and events surrounding the 2 resurrection.

The phrase "it is near" causes us to always be ready.

"Near" is a relative word. Certainly we would not consider that the 2nd resurrection was "near" the 1st century Christians, but the beginning of certain events of the Revelation were near and had become evident.

 

4 hours ago, Alive said:

Message to the Seven Churches

Rev. 1:4 (NAS20S)    John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne, ⁵ and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— ⁶ and He made us into a kingdom, priests to   His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

 

 

4 hours ago, Alive said:

⁷ BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

This could be considered an affirmation of previous prophecies made by Jesus about the 70 AD destruction. Kind of, "I told you this was going to happen and now it has, just like Jesus said it would happen."

 

4 hours ago, Alive said:

Rev. 1:8 (NAS20S)   “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “ who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The Patmos Vision

Rev. 1:9 (NAS20S)    I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and   perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. ¹⁰ I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, ¹¹ saying, “ Write on a scroll what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”

The best evidence of the post destruction writing is that the scroll of the 7 seals could not be opened until after the 70 AD destruction.

This is shown in the observation that the 6th seal is the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, confirmed by Rev 6:16, and lk 23:30.

So the scroll could not be revealed until after the events of the 6th seal.

Since the contents of the scroll are revealed at the time that the Revelation was given (the 2 witnesses), then the 6th seal showing the 70 AD destruction must have already happened.

 

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4 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

The thing is, that Jerusalem was basically wiped out by the Roman armies in AD 70. They knocked down the walls and were so angry they filled up the Temple mount with tons of dirt and rock and stopped the sacrificial service to this day. The Christians in Jerusalem had to flee to east across the Jordan to Pella and then went up north and set up in Antioch and formed their center of studies during the early church, which became the new Christian center.  Antioch was the western end of the caravan routes over which goods were brought from the east and was at the crossroads of the Empire for that area so it led to much growth and prosperity.  Antioch was one of the largest cities in the Roman Empire at that time and was home to a large and thriving Jewish community. So if anything, it was Antioch that was the great Christian center not Jerusalem, as it was was for all intents and purposes a backwater. 

Rome on the other hand, was the center of the Roman Empire, and along with Alexandria, became the other two centers of Christianity. In the early church, the bishop of Rome now became regarded as a Patriarchate, i.e. an autonomous diocese along with Alexandria and Antioch, and soon became the dominant center. It became more prominent and by the second century was seen basically as in charge of those things Christian and ruling over the church as we see at the Council of Nicaea in 325. The church at Rome, or the Papacy was given more and more power as the western part of the empire ebbed and we see by 538 the transition from the Pagan Roman Empire to the Papal power of Rome. It was at this time since Emperor Justinian's decree of 533, which made the bishop of Rome,  chief bishop of all the churches, that the supremacy of the bishop of Rome over the Church was actually implemented by the bishop of Rome, Vigilius, considered the first pope. And were was Jerusalem in all this, nothing, and what power on the church and Christians, not much if any, even as the crusaders fought over it... And we dont see a change until after WWII when the Jews, not Christians, came back to restore what little they could....  

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/timeline-for-the-history-of-jerusalem-4500-bce-present

 

Again brother, I will agree with everything that you have posted here.

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The viewpoint of the Revelation is from the time of it's writing, say 85-96 AD ish.

At that time Jerusalem had fallen and was so wasted that Josephus wrote that you couldn't tell that a city ever existed there.

It had become everything that Rev 17 & 18 says at that time.

Consider that John wrote in Rev 17 that the 6th head "is".

That means that the situation of his day was that the harlot was riding the beast at that time.

The future of the woman and the Roman beast are seen as the 10 horns and the 8th head.

Rome divides into horns at the death of the 7th head.

The Roman horns hate the woman, but Rome was part of the Babylonian system.

So maybe the logic would be that Rome embraced the Babylonian system, but hated the children of Israel, as shown by centuries of persecution.

[abcdef]

This is a continuation of the 2nd post on page 5 about the 7 trumpets and the fall of this present day Jerusalem.

The 7 seals  are the time between Israel's rejection of the Pentecost gospel kingdom in about 37 AD and the destruction of the 70 AD Jerusalem.

The 7 trumpets cover the time between the 70 AD destruction and the 2nd resurrection.

Between the seals and trumpets is a half an hour of silence in heaven.

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When Jesus was asked by His Apostles about the destruction of the temple (Matt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21), Jesus said that Jerusalem would fall and be followed by a time called the times of the gentiles, LK 21:24. At the end of that time Jerusalem would be restored by gathering Israel from the gentile nations, from one end of heaven to the other, the gathering shown in Matt 24:31. This gathering of Israel from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem would complete the statue of Dan.2, and end the time of the woman in the wilderness shown in Rev 12. 

But Jesus didn't say how long that time period was or much about the details leading up to the event of restoration. So the time was not determined in years and the early Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel was lacking additional information on the restoration, until the Revelation was given to John and the 7 congregations.

The time between 70 AD and the giving of the Revelation was the 1/2 hour of silence.

The congregations knew that Jerusalem would be restored, but didn't know the details. When Jesus gave John the Revelation, the details were revealed, in symbolism. Heaven had been silent after the 70 AD destruction, the Revelation ended the silence and revealed the sequence of the trumpets.

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to be continued.

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[abcdef]

The  first 4 trumpets.

Again, the trumpets are about the unbelieving broken branches of Israel who rejected the gospel Pentecost kingdom. The 7 trumpets take place between 70 AD and the resur/rapt of the 7th trumpet. They show the withdrawing of God's blessings of protection.

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The first 4 trumpets are grouped together by Rev 14:7, which show the creation as the heavens, earth, the sea, and the fountains.

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One might observe the grouping of 4 in other places such as,

The 4 days in the creation of the earth in Genesis (the 5th day begins the creation of life after the earth is finished).

The 4 horsemen of Rev 6:1-8.

The first 4 vials that are covering the same areas as the first 4 trumpets, earth, sea, fountains and rivers, and heaven Rev 14:7.

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The 4 trumpets cover the entire creation and the river of life of blessings that flows from the throne of God that keep the creation alive and in order.

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What the 4 trumpets are saying is that the children of Israel who rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom are affected by the withdrawing of God's blessings no matter where they are in God's creation.

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Rev 8:7, The first trumpet shows unbelieving Israel being burned up by the enemies of Israel. The enemies are mainly Rome during this post 70 AD time period.

The trees are Israel which is understood as fig trees or olive trees as shown in Zech 4 and Rev 11. 

The grass is also people as shown in Isa 40:6-7.

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The second trumpet Rev 8:8-9.

The great mountain is Jerusalem Dan 9:16. The sea is the sea of the gentile nations.

The picture of Jerusalem being swallowed up by the gentile nations results in the blood of Israel being poured out in the gentile nations, the result of the assault and aftermath of the 70 AD fall. Israel was chased into the gentile nations and Rome followed Rev 12:15-17, killing Israel  in the sea of the gentile nations as far as the power of Rome would extend.

The ships are groups of Israel sailing on the sea of the gentile nations, above the gentile nations, closer to God. The effects of the 70 AD fall on the groups of Israel that were fleeing to the safety of other Jewish settlements are shown to be also affected, as 1/3 are killed.

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The third trumpet Rev 8:10-11. The great star that falls is again Jerusalem, similar to the burning mountain that falls into the sea at the second trumpet, both are burning as lights to the world and falling away from God.

God is the fountain and the river of life and blessing flows from His throne to the creation Jer 2:13, 17:13, Psa 36:9, 68:26, Pro 13:14.

This Holy Spirit flow is shown in Zech 4:11-14, as flowing through Israel out to creation.

The result is bitterness towards God from the unbelieving branches of Israel who did not understand why Jerusalem fell, was swallowed up, by the gentile nations.

So the pure river of blessings that were flowing from the throne of God were tainted by the bitterness in the hearts of the unbelieving branches.

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Rev 8:12, The fourth trumpet shows that the unbelieving branches were missing 1/3 of the complete light of the scriptures. 

If they wanted the complete light of understanding, they would receive Jesus and the Holy Spirit. By rejecting Jesus they were lacking the complete light of God's Holy scriptures.

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[truth7t7]

58 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The  first 4 trumpets.

Again, the trumpets are about the unbelieving broken branches of Israel who rejected the gospel Pentecost kingdom. The 7 trumpets take place between 70 AD and the resur/rapt of the 7th trumpet. They show the withdrawing of God's blessings of protection.

-----

The first 4 trumpets are grouped together by Rev 14:7, which show the creation as the heavens, earth, the sea, and the fountains.

----

One might observe the grouping of 4 in other places such as,

The 4 days in the creation of the earth in Genesis (the 5th day begins the creation of life after the earth is finished).

The 4 horsemen of Rev 6:1-8.

The first 4 vials that are covering the same areas as the first 4 trumpets, earth, sea, fountains and rivers, and heaven Rev 14:7.

-----

The 4 trumpets cover the entire creation and the river of life of blessings that flows from the throne of God that keep the creation alive and in order.

---

What the 4 trumpets are saying is that the children of Israel who rejected the Pentecost gospel kingdom are affected by the withdrawing of God's blessings no matter where they are in God's creation.

-----

Rev 8:7, The first trumpet shows unbelieving Israel being burned up by the enemies of Israel. The enemies are mainly Rome during this post 70 AD time period.

The trees are Israel which is understood as fig trees or olive trees as shown in Zech 4 and Rev 11. 

The grass is also people as shown in Isa 40:6-7.

-

The second trumpet Rev 8:8-9.

The great mountain is Jerusalem Dan 9:16. The sea is the sea of the gentile nations.

The picture of Jerusalem being swallowed up by the gentile nations results in the blood of Israel being poured out in the gentile nations, the result of the assault and aftermath of the 70 AD fall. Israel was chased into the gentile nations and Rome followed Rev 12:15-17, killing Israel  in the sea of the gentile nations as far as the power of Rome would extend.

The ships are groups of Israel sailing on the sea of the gentile nations, above the gentile nations, closer to God. The effects of the 70 AD fall on the groups of Israel that were fleeing to the safety of other Jewish settlements are shown to be also affected, as 1/3 are killed.

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The third trumpet Rev 8:10-11. The great star that falls is again Jerusalem, similar to the burning mountain that falls into the sea at the second trumpet, both are burning as lights to the world and falling away from God.

God is the fountain and the river of life and blessing flows from His throne to the creation Jer 2:13, 17:13, Psa 36:9, 68:26, Pro 13:14.

This Holy Spirit flow is shown in Zech 4:11-14, as flowing through Israel out to creation.

The result is bitterness towards God from the unbelieving branches of Israel who did not understand why Jerusalem fell, was swallowed up, by the gentile nations.

So the pure river of blessings that were flowing from the throne of God were tainted by the bitterness in the hearts of the unbelieving branches.

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Rev 8:12, The fourth trumpet shows that the unbelieving branches were missing 1/3 of the complete light of the scriptures. 

If they wanted the complete light of understanding, they would receive Jesus and the Holy Spirit. By rejecting Jesus they were lacking the complete light of God's Holy scriptures.

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No place in history have the literal events seen below been seen or fulfilled

Revelation 8:7-12KJV

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.