Who is Israel? And what is God's plan for the Jewish people?

[BibleGuy]

On 4/20/2022 at 3:10 PM, Heleadethme said:

Yes, the Lord can get angry, or He can be longsuffering depending on the reasons for different parts of His word being rejected.  Could be stubbornness and pride, could be spiritual immaturity, could be d/t bad teaching, could be due to idolatry, it just depends....He knows and judges the heart.

I want to post some scriptures and see if you'd share what your thoughts are on them.

 

Heb 7:11-19

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

(the Greek word for change here unequivocally means to transpose one thing for another...one thing put in place or exchanged for another...it doesn’t mean to add one thing in addition to another.)

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.  (See that..?  DISANNULLING of the old....it’s a new law now, as it were)

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

Rom 2:25

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (and as scripture establishes, no one can keep the law...the law proves all men to be unrighteous....if we offend in anything at all we have transgressed the whole law)

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

1Co 7:17-20

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

 

Gal 5:1-14

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The priesthood has been changed from the tribe of Levi to a new priesthood from the tribe of Judah....the tribe Yeshua/Jesus was born into.  And circumcision is one example where the Law was changed....no longer circumcision of the flesh but circumcision of the heart.  So in order to obey the Law concerning circumcision one only needs to be circumcised in heart.  Another example where the Law was changed is where Jesus spoke about lusting after a woman....the letter of the Law only says not to commit adultery....but the Law being changed to be a Law of the heart requires more than what the letter says.  Keeping of Sabbaths is another example...Paul wrote to let it be according to one’s own conscience and to let no one judge us, ie, rule over us, in that matter....if it were still required by God to keep the Sabbath day in the literal sense Paul would of course have said so and taught it.....we actually keep the Sabbath Law when we keep it in heart by having entered the rest of God through faith, ceasing from our own works and walking in His rest every day. (“There remains therefore a sabbath rest to the people of God....”)   These are all examples of the new way of the Spirit, in other words.

The BIBLE says the dividing wall and enmity are due to the ordinances....and I believe it because I see and experience it, such as on this thread and attending services at some Messianic places of worship.  We're supposed to be a NEW MAN, neither Jew nor Gentile, and not divided into two camps, but ONE.

 

 

 

Hi again!

Let’s see here….I’ve now raised 68 objections to your antinomianism (anti-Torah theology).

You’ve still not addressed any of those objections.

Let’s take a look at your message from a few days ago, which I still need to address….

 

69.  You wrote: “Could be stubbornness and pride”

My response:  Yes, pride is bad.  In fact, Psalm 19:13 confirms that pride (Heb. “זֵד”) is bad.  Those with “זֵד” are characterized by Torah-disobedience (Ps. 119:21,51,69,78,85).  So let’s not have pride.  Let’s obey the Torah instead!  But wait, then why do you oppose Torah-obedience?  That’s what people with pride (“זֵד”) do….right?

 

70.  You wrote: “could be spiritual immaturity”

My response:  Yes, we want to be truly spiritual.  And, TORAH is spiritual (Rom.7:14), and we should earnestly desire spiritual things (1 Cor. 14:1).  So you should earnestly desire Torah!  But then, why do you oppose it?

 

71. You wrote: “could be...bad teaching”

My response:  True.  We want GOOD teaching to correct us.  In fact, ALL SCRIPTURE (thus including Torah, 2Ti.3:16) should be used to teach and correct and rebuke us.  But then, why do you disagree with Torah-obedience?

 

72.  You wrote:  “He knows and judges the heart.”

My response:  Yes, and that judgment includes casting anti-Torah religious people away (Mt. 7:21-23).  So then, why would you want to be an anti-Torah religious person?

In fact, God’s very judgments (Heb. “מִשְׁפָּט”) are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).  So, why would you oppose God’s judgments?

And what should be in our heart?  TORAH!  (Thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).  See also Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16.

 

73. You cited Heb. 7:11-19

My response: Of COURSE the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Levitical Priesthood.  The Levitical sacrifices merely atone (cover) sin….whereas Jesus (through His shed blood) fully takes sins away.  Agreed!

But the Levitical priesthood was not replaced by the Melchizedek Priesthood.  Rather, they COEXIST.  After all, they coexisted in Moses’ day too.  The “change” (Gr. “μετατίθημι”, Heb. 7:12) is a TRANSFER of focus from the inferior Levitical Priesthood to the superior Melchizedek Priesthood in which Jesus functioned.

But Levitical sacrifices continued not only to be practiced by 1^st century animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7) and were upheld by literally THOUSANDS of 1^st-century believers (Ac. 21), but they were also even explicitly upheld by Paul who paid for a vow to affirm Paul’s ongoing Torah-obedience (Ac. 21)…..and Paul expected us to imitate that behavior (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Jesus explicitly affirmed the legitimacy of sacrificial activity too (Mt. 5:24), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:19-20).

Future prophecies also guarantee restoration of Levitical priestly sacrificial activity (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec. 14;Eze. 40-47;Mal.3;Is. 66;Jer.33).

Thus, the Levitical and Melchizedek Priesthoods CONTINUE to coexist, even into the New Covenant era.

Of course!

After all, TORAH passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16)…..Let’s stop pretending that the writer of Hebrews was pro-Torah in Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16, but then he sometimes changed his mind elsewhere in the book of Hebrews.

And OF COURSE Jesus sets aside (Heb. 7:18) the Levitical Priesthood instructions when pursuing His Melchizedek duties!  After all, Jesus is not a Levite!  He is of the order of Melchizedek!  It would make no sense for Jesus to follow Levitical rules when performing Melchizedek priestly duties.

Are the Levitical priestly duties therefore cancelled now for all Levites?  Of course not!  Re-read the Scriptures I cited here in point #73 for proof.

 

74.  You cited Rom. 2:25.

My response: Keep reading!  Rom. 2:27 has Paul affirming the legitimacy of even GENTILES obeying Torah!  That simply supports my position….thanks!

Moreover, don’t forget Rom. 2:13 where Paul says that we who obey the Torah will be justified.

 

75. You claimed: “and as scripture establishes, no one can keep the law”

 My response:  Was Moses a liar?  Moses said it is NOT TOO DIFFICULT (Dt. 30:11).  And Paul applies that very context to YOU! (citing Dt. 30 at Rom. 10:8).  Thus, Paul AGREES that Torah-obedience is not too difficult.

Sure, sometimes we sin….but Torah has provisions for that…..so no big deal…..

And those provisions point to our need for a permanent removal of sin….which is precisely what Jesus did for us.

Thus, His blood cleanses us from all sin.

 

 76. You wrote: “and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter;”

My response:  The Hebraic conception of “circumcised in heart” means to OBEY TORAH!  Just look at the context of Dt. 10:16 and Dt. 30:6.

And OF COURSE physical circumcision (according to the letter of the law), without true and faithful Torah-obedience from a circumcised heart, is useless.  Agreed!

This merely confirms my position.  Thanks!

 

77.  You cited 1 Cor. 7:19.

My response:  1 Cor. 7:19 tells us to KEEP GOD’S COMMANDS!  Where are those commands found?  THE WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES! (1Ki.2:3).  Thanks for supporting my position.

After all, Torah does NOT require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision…..so it makes no difference whether an adult Gentile convert gets circumcised or not…..because Torah does not even require it.

What matters is obeying God’s COMMANDS (1 Cor. 7:19 referencing Torah, 1 Ki.2:3).

Torah requires eighth-day circumcision (Lev. 12:3), not adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

 

78.  You cited Gal. 5:1-14.

My response:  I agree 100%!  It’s perfectly consistent with my position.  Thanks for citing it.

 

79.  You wrote: “The priesthood has been changed from the tribe of Levi to a new priesthood from the tribe of Judah....the tribe Yeshua/Jesus was born into. ”

 My response:  No.  It’s a TRANSFER of focus (see above), not a change in Torah.

And, Yeshua’s priesthood is properly of Melchizedek, not Judah.  Melchizedek precedes Judah.

 

80.  You wrote: “And circumcision is one example where the Law was changed....no longer circumcision of the flesh but circumcision of the heart. ”

My response:  You just made that up.  Paul never opposed eighth-day circumcision as required in Lev. 12:3.  AND, “circumcision of the heart” means TORAH-OBEDIENCE!  Just look at the context of Dt. 10:16 and 30:6 and Jer. 4:4 for proof.

So yes!  Be circumcised in your HEART so that you obey Torah from the HEART (not merely as a useless outward performance).

 

81.  You wrote: “Another example where the Law was changed is where Jesus spoke about lusting after a woman....the letter of the Law only says not to commit adultery....but the Law being changed to be a Law of the heart requires more than what the letter says. ”

My response:  Wrong again.  Jesus merely expanded upon the true meaning and purpose of Torah.  Nothing stated by Jesus contradicts or changes Torah.

After all, God commands us to OBEY TORAH (Dt. 30:10).  Therefore, we should DESIRE to obey Torah.  Therefore, it’s against the Torah to desire to disobey Torah.  Therefore, it’s against the Torah to desire to violate Ex. 20:14.  Thus, it’s against the Torah to lust after a woman who is not your wife.  Therefore, Mt. 5:28 is nothing new!  It’s already implicit within Torah itself.  Jesus was simply affirming the perpetuity of both explicit AND implicit Torah commands and principles.  Thus, Mt. 5:28 is NOT a “change” of Torah! (that’s just your unbiblical imagination at work again….)  Mt. 5:28 is merely an expounding of Torah.

After all, Jesus upholds ALL Torah (Mt. 5:19-20), and that applies to you too (given Mt. 28:19-20).

 

82. You wrote: “Keeping of Sabbaths is another example...Paul wrote to let it be according to one’s own conscience and to let no one judge us, ie, rule over us, in that matter....if it were still required by God to keep the Sabbath day in the literal sense Paul would of course have said so and taught it.....we actually keep the Sabbath Law when we keep it in heart by having entered the rest of God through faith, ceasing from our own works and walking in His rest every day. (“There remains therefore a sabbath rest to the people of God....”)   ”

My response:  Wrong again!  Paul never opposed Sabbath Torah.  You just made that up.  Sure, there was a debate regarding whether every other day of the week should be the same (in certain respects) as the Sabbath day…..and since that’s not what Torah commands……you are thus free to decide for yourself on that one.  However, you are NOT free to ignore Sabbath Torah.  Rather, we should obey it, to the extent possible, of course, during our present diaspora.

And Paul DID require Sabbath Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19 are examples).

John required Sabbath Torah too (1Jn.5:3 is an example).

And we don’t “cease from our own works every day”….rather, Paul encouraged people to work! (Eph.2:10)….after all, faith without works is dead (Jas.2:26).

And, Heb. 4:9 tells you explicitly that Sabbath rest remains for us!  Thus it’s good to rest on the Sabbath (7^th day of the week, by the way), as Torah tells us to do.

Furthermore, Heb. 4:7 cites Ps. 95:7 which references the children of Israel who were expected to OBEY TORAH!  Thus, Hebrews 4 is continuing to uphold Torah-obedience.

And Heb. 4:12 (the very context from which you quoted!) upholds the WORD OF GOD.  Guess what?  TORAH is the word of God (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33).  Thus, Heb. 4:12 upholds Torah-obedience too.

And Heb. 4:14 (the very context from which you quoted!) upholds JESUS.  Guess what?  Jesus upholds all Torah (Mt. 5:19).

Looks like the very passage you reference (Heb. 4) supports my position.

Thanks for bringing this up!

 

83.  You wrote: “These are all examples of the new way of the Spirit, in other words.”

My response:  You mean the SPIRIT who leads us to obey Torah ordinances? (Eze. 36:27)

And the SPIRIT who testifies Torah should be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:15-16), not terminated!

And the SPIRIT of Jesus who sends forth Torah-teachers (Mt. 23:34)….

And the SPIRIT of God who commands Torah in His words (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33;etc.)

And the SPIRIT which is opposed to Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus we should obey Torah in the Spirit!

And the SPIRIT whose fruit is peace (Gal. 5:22) which is given to those who love (not cancel!) Torah (Ps. 119:165)….

YES!  Let us uphold this Holy Spirit who leads us to grow in faithful obedience to Torah!

AMEN!

 

84.  You wrote: “The BIBLE says the dividing wall and enmity are due to the ordinances....and I believe it because I see and experience it”

My response:  Good job!  I refuted this line 3 times already…..thanks for ignoring the Biblical evidence.

I’ll refute it for the 4^th time now…..ready?

You should know it by now….I’ve already told you this!

There is NO TORAH LAW dividing Jew from Gentile in Christ.  The canceled commandments in Eph. 2:14-15 is MAN-MADE DOGMA!   It’s not Torah…..it’s MAN-MADE DOGMA (Gr. “δόγμασιν”) that gets cancelled.  TORAH is not DOGMA.  Paul is confirming that Gentiles are free to be part of Israel, just as much as a fellow Israelite, and partake in the COVENANTS (PLURAL!  Eph.2:12)  That includes the NEW Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and the Abrahamic Covenant……ALL of which Gentile disciples of Christ may partake in!

 

85.  You wrote: “such as on this thread and attending services at some Messianic places of worship.  We're supposed to be a NEW MAN, neither Jew nor Gentile, and not divided into two camps, but ONE.”

My response:  Yes, the “Messianic” places of worship in America are sometimes wild and crazy, and can be quite unbiblical…..and often NOT safe places for genuine seeking Christians to learn.

But why be surprised?  Of COURSE the Adversary will try to screw up God’s restoration of truly authentic Torah-obedient faith and practice!  After all, the Adversary is the spirit of LAWLESSNESS (that’s TORAH-lessness)….so of COURSE the Enemy hates Torah-obedience with a passion (and you do too, it seems….hmmm……)

Anyway, yes, it makes no difference whether you are genetically “Jew” or “Gentile”, because we are all ONE in the Messiah of Israel.  And we are all ISRAELITES in Christ who should grow in faithful obedience to Torah.

Sadly, many of the “Messianic” groups in America oppose this Biblical teaching.

We have much work to do!

But hey, it’s good to rest on the Sabbath too…..

Ok, we now have about 80 or so objections to your anti-Torah position.

Be sure to ignore them all……

And then just cite more passages of Scripture instead.

Blessings to you…….

 

[Heleadethme]

5 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Ok, we now have about 80 or so objections to your anti-Torah position.

 

Be sure to ignore them all……

 

And then just cite more passages of Scripture instead.

 

Blessings to you…….

 

 

You love your checklists, but I prefer to seek the new way of the Spirit and to be led by Him.

Here's some more scripture for you brother :  The carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to the law of God.  (Rom 8:7) That's why you are always arguing against the plain and simple teaching of His word.

But we need ears to hear what the Spirit is saying....the mind of Christ to understand.  (each one according to their measure of grace)

[Heleadethme]

5 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

My response:  Yes, the “Messianic” places of worship in America are sometimes wild and crazy, and can be quite unbiblical…..and often NOT safe places for genuine seeking Christians to learn.

It's good to reflect on why new wine needed to be poured into new wineskins.  Gentiles are the new wineskins.   No one having tasted the old wine straightway desireth the new.  Supposed to grow up and put away childish things, so I pray they will grow and mature as we all need to.

It was so tiring to be told (accused) all the time that Gentiles hijacked the gospel away from the Jews.  Israel is instructed in Torah itself to expect this.  She is instructed to have her Son restored to her by Ruth who was a Gentile.  Cyrus is a picture of the Messiah dressed in Gentile garb.  The nations would bring Israel's sons from afar carried on their shoulders. etc etc.  It's all over the Torah for those who have eyes to see.

[Justin Adams]

6 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Blessings to you…….

And also to you...  I suggest a 'wall of words' is rarely read and really just uses up electronic ink. Maybe a few points at a time will suffice...

[Heleadethme]

7 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

But why be surprised?  Of COURSE the Adversary will try to screw up God’s restoration of truly authentic Torah-obedient faith and practice!  After all, the Adversary is the spirit of LAWLESSNESS (that’s TORAH-lessness)….so of COURSE the Enemy hates Torah-obedience with a passion (and you do too, it seems….hmmm……)

It's funny how Gentile believers have been loving and obeying Torah for 2000 years, without a checklist and without a Temple and without any priest other than Christ.  Go figure.

[Anne2]

Paul' He began with Genesis The Torah he taught was before Moses. Even the law of faith. So does Hebrews. That Paul kept the law of the land, i.e. Temple law, law of Caesar etc. as a Jew is not what he told Gentiles. He, as well as the rest of the apostles concerning Gentiles, it was what they were taught in the synagogues, just as it is today. Noachide. To have a portion in the world to come.

On 4/24/2022 at 3:49 PM, BibleGuy said:

You are right!  Paul opposed the Judaizers.....because the Judaizers opposed faith.

Paul taught Torah AND faith together.  Paul's "faith" was a TORAH-OBEDIENT faith, not a faithless Torah-obedience.  That's why Paul applies TORAH to you as the very exemplification of the FAITH which Paul preaches (applying Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom. 10:8).

The Abrahamic promises are Torah. For both Jew and Gentile, a Father of many nations has been fulfilled in us all.

[BibleGuy]

11 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

You love your checklists, but I prefer to seek the new way of the Spirit and to be led by Him.

Here's some more scripture for you brother :  The carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot be subject to the law of God.  (Rom 8:7) That's why you are always arguing against the plain and simple teaching of His word.

But we need ears to hear what the Spirit is saying....the mind of Christ to understand.  (each one according to their measure of grace)

Jesus likes checklists too (Lk.10:25-28), sufficient for eternal life.

Do you argue with Jesus' checklist?

Moreover, Rom. 8:7 says the FLESH disobeys TORAH, and that's bad.

Therefore, Torah-obedience is GOOD!

The very verse (Rom. 8:7) you cited supports my Biblical position!

Thanks for bringing it up again.

The SPIRIT testifies Torah should be written upon your heart (Heb. 10:15-16).

The SPIRIT leads us to obey Torah statutes and ordinances (Eze. 36:27).

The SPIRIT is opposed to the Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus the Spirit upholds Torah-obedience.

The SPIRIT was strong in Stephen's life, and Stephen was falsely accused of opposing Mosaic Torah (Ac. 6:13), confirming that the SPIRIT led Stephen to OBEY Torah (not oppose it).

Jesus' words (Mt. 5:19-20) are spirit and life (Jn. 6:63).  Do you oppose the Spirit of Jesus' words?

The mind of Christ does not oppose Christ's words!  Christ's words confirm we LIVE by Torah (Mt. 4:4;Lk.4:4), not by ignoring it!

ALL Scripture (thus including Torah, 2Ti.3:16) applies to you, to correct and rebuke and train your behavior in righteousness.

Do you agree with these Scriptures?

I avoided making a "list" to make you happy, by the way....

Blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

11 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

And also to you...  I suggest a 'wall of words' is rarely read and really just uses up electronic ink. Maybe a few points at a time will suffice...

Then be sure to tell God to inspire a smaller Bible next time.....

Thanks!

 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

It's funny how Gentile believers have been loving and obeying Torah for 2000 years, without a checklist and without a Temple and without any priest other than Christ.  Go figure.

There's a checklist in Lk.10:25-28......

The Temple will return (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Eze.40-47).

Many believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7).

We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled).

Interesting!

 

[BibleGuy]

8 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Paul' He began with Genesis The Torah he taught was before Moses. Even the law of faith. So does Hebrews. That Paul kept the law of the land, i.e. Temple law, law of Caesar etc. as a Jew is not what he told Gentiles. He, as well as the rest of the apostles concerning Gentiles, it was what they were taught in the synagogues, just as it is today. Noachide. To have a portion in the world to come.

The Abrahamic promises are Torah. For both Jew and Gentile, a Father of many nations has been fulfilled in us all.

Paul walked orderly according to the law (Ac. 21).  Paul told Gentiles to imitate that pattern (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

ALL Torah was upheld by Jesus (Mt.5:19-20) and it applies to ALL disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).      [Not merely the "Noachide" laws.]

Blessings...