Who is Israel? And what is God's plan for the Jewish people?

[BibleGuy]

7 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

There is no coexisting dual priesthood."2 masters 2 heads"

The levites ie sons of aaron are no longer the Head of the body serving in the earthly tabernacle nor will be ever again far as I understand. They will be numbered the same as the other 11 tribes. Eze 48, Rev 14.

The head of the body and plan for Israel is that the hebrew peoples accept the Change where in Yeshua is The head of the body. After the order of Melchizedek. 

Blessed be The Holy One

You wrote: "There is no coexisting dual priesthood."

My response:  Of course there is!   The Melchizedek Priesthood existed since at least the days of Abraham, and existed during the time of Moses as well (when the Levitical Priesthood ALSO existed).  There's your proof they COEXIST.

Again, Jesus functioned in the Melchizedek Priesthood, yet the Levitical Priesthood activities continued (e.g., Ac. 6:7;Ac. 21).  Again that's proof that both priesthoods COEXIST.

And yet again, Jesus is our Priest of the order of Melchizedek even into the future, even though the Levitical Priesthood will again also be restored (given Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Zec.14).

There's THREE different examples confirming COEXISTENCE of the Levitical and Melchizedek Priesthoods.

 

You wrote: "The levites ie sons of aaron are no longer the Head of the body serving in the earthly tabernacle nor will be ever again far as I understand."

My response:  Levitical Priesthood activities will be restored:  (given Dt. 30:1-8;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Zec.14).

 

You wrote: "the Change where in Yeshua is The head of the body. "

My response:  Yeshua has always been the head of the body.  The body is ISRAEL.  Christ is the Head.....always has been.

 

 

Blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

13 minutes ago, Golds and Blues said:

None of the prophets you cited mention a restoration or authority given to the sons of aaron.

And nowhere in Torah were there 2 simaltaneous orders of priesthood. The sons of aaron officiated in part due to the peoples choice not to go up the mountain and sup with The Lord. Similar to how the people desired a king later on they asked for moshe to mediate on their behalf. The Lord then instructed moshe the manner in which Mediation would occur till a Prophet like unto Moshe is promised to come.  And that prophet is Yeshua of the order of melchizedek and tribe of yhdh. A tribe not spoken of ever officiating as a priest. Heb 7. Note that the hebrew words for mercy and justice are oftentimes translated to ordinance and statute in english.

I agree with Torah as being Holy unto The Lord.

But only the lawless one desires to shed innocent blood in the guise of a son of aaron.

 

 

 

You wrote: "None of the prophets you cited mention a restoration or authority given to the sons of aaron."

My response:  Sure it does.  Dt. 30:1-8 prophesies a future restoration of 100% (ALL) Torah.  So of course that includes restoration of the priestly Levitical role described in Mosaic Torah.

Same in Jer. 33.....restoration of Levitical priestly activity.

Again in Is. 66....restoration of Levites as priests.

Even Rev. 20:6 implies restoration of Levitical priestly activity during the Millennium.

 

You wrote: "And nowhere in Torah were there 2 simaltaneous orders of priesthood."

My response:  The Melchizedek order began in Abraham's time (if not sooner).  It was not terminated....but still exists to this day.  The Levitical Priesthood also existed during a subset of that period of time (from the time of Moses to the present, and even the future as well).  This proves both priesthoods can COEXIST.

Again, Yeshua had ALREADY functioned as Melchizedek Priest when Levitical sacrifices CONTINUED in Ac.  6:7 and in Ac. 21.  They COEXIST.

The Levitical sacrifices apply to the earthly tabernacle, but Yeshua's superior sacrifice applies to the heavenly tabernacle (Heb. 9:23-24), which is a copy of the earthly tabernacle.  Heb. 9:23 shows the earthly tabernacle being cleansed by animal blood, while the heavenly tabernacle is cleansed by Christ's blood.  That's a COEXISTENCE of Levitical sacrificial activity (in the earthly tabernacle) with Melchizedek priestly activity (in the heavenly tabernacle).

 

You wrote: "But only the lawless one desires to shed innocent blood in the guise of a son of aaron."

My response:  Rather, LAWFUL ones desire to shed animal blood in accordance with 100% of all Torah.  That's what happened in Moses' day, David's day, Yeshua's day, Paul's day, and that's what is prophesied to occur again in the future, with God's approval, in Dt. 30:1-8, for example.

 

blessings...

 

 

[Justin Adams]

8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Then be sure to tell God to inspire a smaller Bible next time.....

Thanks!

 

We can all read the bible thanks. We do not need so much proof-texting in one go. It becomes difficult for some to follow. Thanks 

[Justin Adams]

It is interesting to note how translators attempt to 'correct' texts when putting English down.

Many scribes even way back tried to 'fix' John's Greek in Revelation. The deliberate 'poor' Greek syntax in otherwise flawless writings were there to indicate that the reader should go and actually look up the Tanakh reference(s). A sometimes double-whammy and even triple on occasion. John was a very accomplished writer though quite frustrating to some people that like it all spelled out verbatim. Not so John.

[Heleadethme]

15 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

There's a checklist in Lk.10:25-28......

The Temple will return (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Eze.40-47).

Many believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7).

We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled).

Interesting!

 

ok, let's look at Deuteronomy 30, funny I was just reading there recently, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Gal. 4  “You who desire to be under the Law, do ye not HEAR the Law?....which things are an ALLEGORY”........in other words we need ears to hear, eyes to see...by His Spirit.

Deuteronomy 30 is allegory about gathering scattered Israel together in Christ...it is talking about the gospel....promised land is allegory for the inheritance of the Spirit of Christ.  It mentions circumcision of the HEART (Deut. 30: 6).

As the Lord was kind to open my eyes recently to what scriptural references to regathering Israel from her scattering  is all about.....going from lost condition to being saved by being gathered to Him...being brought into the gospel.  (here’s a link to what I shared about that just recently, on Monday: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/277620-covenants/?page=2#comment-3498847 )   

And it is a conditional promise, or else they will perish.  (Deut 30: 18)

The new testament witnesses to the truth of what I'm saying....Romans 8 quotes Deut 30 and reveals what it is talking about:

 

Deu 30:11-14

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

Rom 10:4-10

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

[Heleadethme]

15 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

There's a checklist in Lk.10:25-28......

The Temple will return (Dt. 30:1-8;Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3;Eze.40-47).

Many believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7).

We WILL again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled).

Interesting!

 

I want to mention also that God is not looking for our  "will-worship" (Col 2:23) and never really was under the Law.

Jhn 4:21-23

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

When Jesus was saying not one jot or tittle of the would pass from the Law, He then went on to instruct in how we should keep the Law, the way of the Spirit, ie, in heart and from the heart,  not the letter.  In teaching those things He was showing that keeping the letter of the Law is in itself a failure to keep the Law.  Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God, because they did not have the new nature of Christ within to be able to keep it.

Jesus did not give us a new checklist to keep....He was laying a foundation of what being led by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit and serving in the new way of the Spirit looks like.  That it needs to come naturally from the new nature/spirit within the believer, our conscience and behaviour being informed and unctioned by Christ's Spirit within.  It's by nature, not by checklist.

Rom 2:13-15

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

  

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Heleadethme

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

We can all read the bible thanks. We do not need so much proof-texting in one go. It becomes difficult for some to follow. Thanks 

And most Christians don't understand basic truths they NEED to understand:

1. We are ISRAELITES

2. We should obey TORAH

And converting a person to a better systematic theological position can require LOTS of evidence....

Paul modeled EXTENSIVE LONG periods of discussion (Ac.20:7-9).

It's ok for me to imitate that pattern, thanks for your concern!

(1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9)

 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

ok, let's look at Deuteronomy 30, funny I was just reading there recently, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Gal. 4  “You who desire to be under the Law, do ye not HEAR the Law?....which things are an ALLEGORY”........in other words we need ears to hear, eyes to see...by His Spirit.

Deuteronomy 30 is allegory about gathering scattered Israel together in Christ...it is talking about the gospel....promised land is allegory for the inheritance of the Spirit of Christ.  It mentions circumcision of the HEART (Deut. 30: 6).

As the Lord was kind to open my eyes recently to what scriptural references to regathering Israel from her scattering  is all about.....going from lost condition to being saved by being gathered to Him...being brought into the gospel.  (here’s a link to what I shared about that just recently, on Monday: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/277620-covenants/?page=2#comment-3498847 )   

And it is a conditional promise, or else they will perish.  (Deut 30: 18)

The new testament witnesses to the truth of what I'm saying....Romans 8 quotes Deut 30 and reveals what it is talking about:

 

Deu 30:11-14

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

Rom 10:4-10

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

Hi!

Dt. 30:1-8 is a prophecy of Moses....not an "allegory".

Shame on you for opposing Moses!

See how you must deny the literal words of God to accommodate your antinomianism?

That's NOT a good approach.

Once you play the "allegory" game, you can ignore whatever Scriptures you don't like!  Now you must ignore Eze. 36 and Eze. 37 too...and MUCH MORE.

You do so at your own peril.

And you oppose the very prophetic foundation of the church in so doing (Eph.2:20).

Paul would not bother walking orderly according to the law (Ac.21) if it's just an "allegory" and nothing more.

You haven't proven that allegorical interpretations supplant literal interpretations.

The truth is that allegorical interpretations COMPLEMENT (but do not supplant) literal interpretations.

You can do better than that.

Try again.

 

You wrote: "promised land is an allegory"

My response:  Wrong again!  The prophets assure us, over and over again, that we (Israel) will again return to the land.  LITERALLY.  Dt. 30:1-8 is just one of dozens of examples.  Also in Ezekiel....for example, Eze. 36 and Eze. 37...and much more.

Jesus promised we literally inherit the land (Mt.5).

Paul said we share in the promised land-inheritance (Gal.3:29).

If Abraham does not literally come back to earth to inherit the physical land promised to him, then God is a liar....

DON'T GO THERE.

Jesus said Abraham will return.

I'll stick with the Bible.

 

 

You wrote: "And it is a conditional promise, or else they will perish.  (Deut 30: 18)"

My response:  Well make up your mind....if Dt. 30:18 is allegory, then it doesn't really mean what is says, in which case the "conditional promise" just allegorically represents something completely different.

Or, if it's literally a conditional promise, then it's NOT JUST AN ALLEGORY!

Either way, you're inconsistent.

 

AND, Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT conditional...it's a GUARANTEE we will again return to obey 100% of all Torah.

You just don't like it.  That's why you're trying to explain it away.

 

Also, Dt. 30:14ff is cited by Paul at Rom.10:8, confirming that the word of faith which Paul preaches is a TORAH-OBEDIENT word of faith.

Paul teaches TORAH + FAITH together.

Not Torah without faith.

Not faith without Torah.

But FAITH + TORAH together.

After all, faith without works is dead (Jas.2:26).

And law without faith causes you to fall from grace (Gal. 5:4).  That's why faith is also needed (Gal.5:5).

 

And Rom. 10:4 ("τέλος") means Christ is the GOAL or AIM or PURPOSE (not termination) of the Torah.  We've got examples of "τέλος" in the LXX which are clearly NOT cases in which the meaning is "termination", btw.

After all, Torah points to Christ (Dt. 18).

And Christ points to Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Of course!

Christ IS the Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14).

Christ did not come to cancel Himself.

Religious people who oppose Torah are at risk of being cast away (Mt.7:21-23).

DON'T GO THERE.

 

Blessings...

PS  You still haven't answered my 80 Biblical objections to your antinomianism...

:-)

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

17 hours ago, Golds and Blues said:

As I've said before there is no mention of the sons of aaron given a restoration of authority. The hebrew only mentions kohanim/priest then levites. Perhaps an assessment on why some english translations insert words that aren't in the text is due. 

וְגַם־מֵהֶ֥ם אֶקַּ֛ח לַכֹּהֲנִ֥ים לַלְוִיִּ֖ם אָמַ֥ר יְהֹוָֽה׃

And from them likewise I will take some to be priests, and levites, said the LORD.

But if you agree Levites will be restored in the future, then they ARE sons of Aaron, right?

Or am I missing something?

 

[BibleGuy]

10 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

I want to mention also that God is not looking for our  "will-worship" (Col 2:23) and never really was under the Law.

Jhn 4:21-23

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

When Jesus was saying not one jot or tittle of the would pass from the Law, He then went on to instruct in how we should keep the Law, the way of the Spirit, ie, in heart and from the heart,  not the letter.  In teaching those things He was showing that keeping the letter of the Law is in itself a failure to keep the Law.  Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God, because they did not have the new nature of Christ within to be able to keep it.

Jesus did not give us a new checklist to keep....He was laying a foundation of what being led by the Spirit, walking in the Spirit and serving in the new way of the Spirit looks like.  That it needs to come naturally from the new nature/spirit within the believer, our conscience and behaviour being informed and unctioned by Christ's Spirit within.  It's by nature, not by checklist.

Rom 2:13-15

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

  

 

I would say Col. 2:23 opposes man-made religion....not intentional worship of God.

After all, we SHOULD worship God (Rev.22:9), even in accordance with Torah (Ex. 34:14).

 

You wrote: "in heart and from the heart,  not the letter."

My response:  Wrong!  "in the heart" means YOU OBSERVE IT (Dt. 30:14).

You just contradicted the Hebraic conception of "in the heart".

Not good.

 

You wrote: "how we should keep the Law, the way of the Spirit, "

My response:  Remember?  The Spirit testifies Torah is written upon our hearts (Heb.10:15-16) which means we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14).

The Spirit leads people to OBEY Torah ordinances and statutes (Eze. 36:27).

The Spirit opposes the Torah-disobedient flesh (Rom.8:7), thus the Spirit upholds Torah-obedience.

Jesus' words are Spirit (Jn.6:63) and include Torah (Mt.5:19-20).

Let's affirm this Torah-upholding Spirit.

 

You wrote: "keeping the letter of the Law is in itself a failure to keep the Law.  "

My response:  Nonsense.  Why would God be mad if people obeyed Him?

Don't be silly!

God is routinely angry at Israel due to DISOBEDIENCE.

You got it backwards!

Please get back to the Bible.

When God tells us to obey, he means OBEY! (Dt. 30:10-11)...he doesn't mean: "ignore My commands because, hey, it's just an allegory...."

 

You wrote: "Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God"

My response:  Wrong again.  Moses is NOT a liar.  It is NOT TOO DIFFICULT (Dt. 30:11).

Paul also walked orderly according to the law (Ac.21:23-26).

Paul said we can and should imitate him (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).  So we can obey Torah too.

Paul even said that uncircumcised people can obey Torah (Rom.2:26).  It's not too difficult.

Paul told us to keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19)....Paul didn't say "Don't bother....it's totally impossible....so just forget about it!"

John told us to keep God's commands (1Jn.5:3)....John didn't say "Don't bother...it's totally impossible....so just forget about it!"

 

You wrote: "Nobody under the Law could keep the Law of God, because they did not have the new nature of Christ within to be able to keep it."

My response:  Wrong again.  Josiah obeyed all Torah from the heart (2Ki.22:35).

Hezekiah obeyed Torah too (2Ch.31:21).

Let's not make things up.....

 

You wrote: "Jesus did not give us a new checklist to keep...."

My response:  True....it's really just the same checklist we already had (Lk.10:25-28;Mt.5:19-20).  That is, all Torah!

 

You wrote: "That it needs to come naturally from the new nature/spirit within the believer, our conscience and behaviour being informed and unctioned by Christ's Spirit within. "

My response:  Right!  That's how we obey Torah!

 

And you're right!  We who do the law will be justified (Rom.2:13).

Glad you cited that one!

 

Blessings...