Montana Marv Posted May 8, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 8, 2022 On 4/3/2022 at 6:19 AM, transmogrified said: Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rapture will take place...so even though we do not know the day nor the hour, we know the resurrection of the believers must happen before the rapture. Jesus said the resurrection of all believers will happen on the last day. So if the resurrection happens on the last day, and this resurrection must take place before the rapture, then there can be no rapture before the last day... The two most important questions in the rapture discussion are 'who is resurrected and when are they resurrected?' Jesus answers both these questions in 4 places in John 6. Here is the list of those who are resurrected on the last day: 1) Those who God has given to Christ 2) All those who God has drawn 3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood 4) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him These are varying descriptions of the believers who Jesus will resurrect on the last day...There are no believers left out of these descriptions.. New Testament Believers, Old Testament believers, tribulation saints...all are included in the last day resurrection. If all are included, then there could not a Pre trib rapture, or a mid trib rapture, or any other variant before the last day. The last day is post millennium. The end of Christ's reign. All who did not follow Satan are included. Those born during the millennium from all nations who do not follow Satan will receive a new resurrection body. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted May 8, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: The last day is post millennium. The end of Christ's reign. All who did not follow Satan are included. Those born during the millennium from all nations who do not follow Satan will receive a new resurrection body. Hello Montana Marv- All the saints rule with Christ for the 1000 years, they all descend down from heaven with at the Second Coming...they have to be resurrected before they can return with Christ...so yes, there is an end to the 1000 year period, but the last day Jesus spoke about in John 6 does not happen at the end of the 1000 years....it happens at the Second Coming, also known as the last day, also known as when the Last Trumpet sounds, also known as the 7th Trumpet... Quote Those born during the millennium from all nations who do not follow Satan will receive a new resurrection body. Please provide scripture that shows those who do not follow Satan will receive a new resurrected body at the end of the 1000 years... Blessings to you- Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted May 9, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2022 16 hours ago, transmogrified said: Hello Montana Marv- All the saints rule with Christ for the 1000 years, they all descend down from heaven with at the Second Coming...they have to be resurrected before they can return with Christ...so yes, there is an end to the 1000 year period, but the last day Jesus spoke about in John 6 does not happen at the end of the 1000 years....it happens at the Second Coming, also known as the last day, also known as when the Last Trumpet sounds, also known as the 7th Trumpet... Please provide scripture that shows those who do not follow Satan will receive a new resurrected body at the end of the 1000 years... Blessings to you- Gary Rev 20 v.5. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted May 9, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2022 29 minutes ago, Montana Marv said: 17 hours ago, transmogrified said: Please provide scripture that shows those who do not follow Satan will receive a new resurrected body at the end of the 1000 years... Blessings to you- Gary Rev 20 v.5. The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...if they didn't follow Satan then the only other category they could be in would be the righteous. The righteous are all raised on the last day at the Second Coming...this cannot be the righteous who did not live again until the thousand years were finished because they had already been resurrected at the Second Coming...who was righteous that was left out of this resurrection? There would be none for Jesus said ALL those who believe on him would be raised on the last day... Blessings to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted May 9, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted May 9, 2022 2 hours ago, transmogrified said: The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...if they didn't follow Satan then the only other category they could be in would be the righteous. The righteous are all raised on the last day at the Second Coming...this cannot be the righteous who did not live again until the thousand years were finished because they had already been resurrected at the Second Coming...who was righteous that was left out of this resurrection? There would be none for Jesus said ALL those who believe on him would be raised on the last day... Blessings to you Notice the end of verse 5. And this is the 1st Resurrection. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted May 9, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Montana Marv said: 2 hours ago, transmogrified said: There would be none for Jesus said ALL those who believe on him would be raised on the last day... Blessings to you Notice the end of verse 5. And this is the 1st Resurrection. Yes, indeed it says this is the first resurrection...It can be a bit confusing as the one phrase in front of it, "but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished," should have been in parenthesis...and it is in some translations. The reason for parenthesis is that what is being said is not essential to understand what is being said. Here is how it is defined: Quote When using parentheses, the information contained within them should be unessential. You can test this by removing the parenthetical information and seeing if the sentence is still clear and makes sense. If it doesn’t, consider rewriting your sentence without parentheses. For example, Unessential: Pumpkin pie (my favorite kind of pie) is delicious. Pumpkin pie is delicious. Essential: July (and June) are summer months. July are summer months. Here are some translations where this phrase was put in parenthesis: Quote NIV- (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. NLT- This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) GNT - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first raising of the dead. NET - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. NRSV - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. A Faithful Version - (But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. ) This is the first resurrection. So reading this without that phrase would make sense: Rev. 20:4-6 "And I saw thrones...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus...which had not worshipped the beast...neither received his mark upon their foreheads...and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years. This is the first resurrection." You can see the phrase 'but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished,' is not essential to what was being said, but was interjected...like in one of the examples: Quote Pumpkin pie (my favorite kind of pie) is delicious. Pumpkin pie is delicious. It is true that the persons favorite pie was pumpkin pie, but it did not need to be interjected into the sentence in order for the sentence to make sense. In the same way, it is true that the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years was finished, but it is not necessary to know that in order to determine who it was that was in the first resurrection. You can see the context would not make sense if the rest of the dead were really the ones who were in the first resurrection. Those who died during the tribulation were in the first resurrection, but those who lived not again until later were not... There are two groups being dealt with here... 1) Those who were killed by the beast during the tribulation 2) The rest of the dead Think about who would be in the first resurrection...these are those who are in Christ, as it says, 'blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection..' What you seem to be getting at is that only those who were killed by the beast reigned with Christ for the 1000 years, while the other saints were not resurrected until the 1000 was finished. This can be shown to be false by comparing other scriptures to this concept. The narrative in Rev. 20:4-6 is focused on those who were killed by the beast that they were in the first resurrection, which of course is true, but it is not the totality of those who will be resurrected in the first resurrection. So we know this is true by looking at a couple of other scriptures, such as: 1) Christ, the first fruits, afterward 'they that are Christ's at his coming.' Note: They that are Christ's at his coming means those who belong to Christ at his coming. Those who were killed by the beast are not the only saints that belong to Christ...ALL those who belong to Christ will be resurrected at his coming. His coming is not at the end of the 1000 years. 2) Peter had said to Jesus that they had forsaken all to follow him and asked him what they would have. Jesus said "....ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Note: The 12 disciples have been dead now for some 2000 years. The 12 disciples will not be among those who were killed by the beast as they will still be dead at that time. The 12 disciples must be resurrected in order to be then sitting on 12 thrones during the 1000 years judging the 12 tribes. They can not do this if they are not resurrected until the 1000 years are finished. 3) When Jesus comes, it says he will come with ALL his saints: 1) Zech. 14:5 "...and the Lord my God shall come and ALL the saints with thee.' 2) 1 Thess. 3:13 - "...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints.' Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years. Jesus and the saints are reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. In order for them to all come with Jesus to the earth at the Second Coming, they must be first resurrected from the dead. They cannot come with Christ at the second coming if they are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 4) What does 1 Thess. 4 say about who will be resurrected at the Second Coming? It says 'the dead in Christ will rise first...' Those who killed by the beast are not the only ones who died in Christ....Paul does not say, 'those who would be killed by the beast would rise first,' but rather includes all those who have died in Christ. 5) What does Paul say about what happens at the last trump? It says: 1) "Behold, I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." Note: The last trump does not sound at the end of the 1000 years..there is no trumpet that sounds at the end of the 1000 years, but Paul says we shall ALL be changed at the last trump. If Rev. 20:4-6 meant that some of us would be changed at the end of the 1000 years, then Paul would have been wrong to say we would ALL be changed at the last trump. Paul was not wrong. 6) Who does it say will be resurrected, judged and rewarded at the 7th trumpet? It says: 1) Rev. 11: 15 "...and the seventh angel sounded...the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord...' This happens at the Second Coming, not at the end of the 1000 years. And what else happens at this time? 2) "...and the time of the dead that they should be judged and that thou shouldest give reward unto: a) Thy servants the prophets... b) The saints... 3) Them that fear thy name, both small and great... This does not say he will just give reward to those who were killed by the beast. It says he will give his reward to thy servants the prophets...this would include of course all the Old and New Testament prophets. This list then does not just include those who were killed by the beast as supposed. When he says he will resurrect, judge and reward 'the saints' this is also not exclusive to those who were killed by the beast, for all God's children are his saints....and when it says 'to them that fear thy name, both small and great,' this also would not be exclusive to only mean those killed by the beast. Blessings to you...Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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