You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[transmogrified]

Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rapture will take place...so even though we do not know the day nor the hour, we know the resurrection of the believers must happen before the rapture.

Jesus said the resurrection of all believers will happen on the last day. So if the resurrection happens on the last day, and this resurrection must take place before the rapture, then there can be no rapture before the last day...

The two most important questions in the rapture discussion are 'who is resurrected and when are they resurrected?' Jesus answers both these questions in 4 places in John 6.

Here is the list of those who are resurrected on the last day:

1) Those who God has given to Christ

2) All those who God has drawn

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood

4) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him

These are varying descriptions of the believers who Jesus will resurrect on the last day...There are no believers left out of these descriptions.. New Testament Believers, Old Testament believers, tribulation saints...all are included in the last day resurrection.

If all are included, then there could not a Pre trib rapture, or a mid trib rapture, or any other variant before the last day. 

 

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I.e. the resurrection IS NOT EQUAL to the rapture,  but (and because)  the rapture takes place afterwards. 

What then do you define the rapture,  since it is NOT the resurrection?   [Remember,  you seem to be agreeing that the rapture takes place AFTER the resurrection of the dead in Christ.]???

Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain ascend up, hence the phrase 'the dead in Christ will rise first..' the word 'rise' means the dead  ascend up before the living do, but of course for them to ascend up, they have to be first resurrected...so hence the resurrection must take place first before anyone ascends up...

Edited April 3, 2022 by transmogrified

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Both the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain ascend up, hence the phrase 'the dead in Christ will rise first..' the word 'rise' means the dead  ascend up before the living do, but of course for them to ascend up, they have to be first resurrected...so hence the resurrection must take place first before anyone ascends up...

Yes, all those believers in the grave and those who have died and not put into a grave such as cremated, died at sea etc will rise and be resurrected before the rapture of the Church. 

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rapture will take place...so even though we do not know the day nor the hour, we know the resurrection of the believers must happen before the rapture.

Jesus said the resurrection of all believers will happen on the last day. So if the resurrection happens on the last day, and this resurrection must take place before the rapture, then there can be no rapture before the last day...

The two most important questions in the rapture discussion are 'who is resurrected and when are they resurrected?' Jesus answers both these questions in 4 places in John 6.

Here is the list of those who are resurrected on the last day:

1) Those who God has given to Christ

2) All those who God has drawn

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood

4) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him

These are varying descriptions of the believers who Jesus will resurrect on the last day...There are no believers left out of these descriptions.. New Testament Believers, Old Testament believers, tribulation saints...all are included in the last day resurrection.

If all are included, then there could not a Pre trib rapture, or a mid trib rapture, or any other variant before the last day. 

 

2nd Peter 1:20 admonishes us not to interpret scripture "privately". The Greek word means "individually", or "by own aquaintance"
- Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation -.

So you have to interpret "the last day" from scripture, not privately. Scripture describes FIVE different "days". They are;

1. The time of sunlight
2. The time of a solar day - evening and morning - 24 hours
3. An event like "the day of the Lord"
4. A year for a day in prophecy (e.g. Daniel 9)
5. A day to God can be a thousand years (2nd Pet.3.8)

You have to decide which is meant when it comes to resurrection. It is important because in Revelation 20 some men who where beheaded "LIVED" (v.4) and reigned for 1,000 years. It goes on to say that their resurrection is the first resurrection and that the "rest of the dead LIVED NOT for 1,000 years". If Christ raises all men "AT the Last day", and some are resurrected 1,000 years before the others, which "DAY" fits scripture?

Well, number 5 is the only one that fits. And if so the there is one thousand years to work within when it comes to the last 3½ years of this age. Some could be resurrected 1 year earlier, some in the middle and some at the end - ALL "AT the last day". And even those who must wait another 1,000 years are raised AT the last day.

You see, if we counted only "24-hour-days" for the Babylonian Captivity it would have been only 70 days long for the Land had to receive her Sabbaths (2nd Chron.36:20-21). But it was 70 YEARS till Judah was released - a YEAR  for a DAY (Ezek.4:6). So, if we let scripture interpret scripture, things make sense.

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You have to decide which is meant when it comes to resurrection. It is important because in Revelation 20 some men who where beheaded "LIVED" (v.4) and reigned for 1,000 years. It goes on to say that their resurrection is the first resurrection and that the "rest of the dead LIVED NOT for 1,000 years". If Christ raises all men "AT the Last day", and some are resurrected 1,000 years before the others, which "DAY" fits scripture?

Hello AdHoc...

The context itself shows what day the last day is...when Paul says we will all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, he is saying all the believers will be raised in a moment and it will be at a certain point in time when the last trumpet sounds...

Of course a moment, or a twinkling of an eye does not take 1000 years...so it happens on one single day for every believer...Jesus shows us WHO will be resurrected and he also shows us WHEN they will be resurrected..adding what Paul said to the equation it is easily seen both Paul and Jesus are talking about the same event and the same time...the last day is when the last trumpet sounds...if it is the last trumpet, then there could no other trumpets sounding after it...but if the pre trib trumpet sounds in 1 Thess. 4 and it is called the last trumpet, then there could not be another  trumpet sounding immediately after the tribulation to gather his elect in Matthew 24...

Yes, those slain at Armageddon will not be resurrected until the 1000 years are finished, because the resurrection of the wicked dead had already occurred before they were slain by Christ at Armageddon.

Jesus told Caiphas he would see Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven...Caiphas was a wicked man, yet he is shown to be alive seeing Jesus coming down from heaven with his saints...how would this be if he had not been first resurrected? And it stands the same in Rev. 1:8 'Behold he comes with clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him...'

Quote

If Christ raises all men "AT the Last day", and some are resurrected 1,000 years before the others, which "DAY" fits scripture?

What Jesus was specifically referring to was that all the believers would be raised at the last day...the above comment is pertaining to the wicked dead that die after the resurrection had already taken place at Armageddon...The last day is the break point between this age and the age to come...the group that gets resurrected during the thousand years are the good and the bad that live and die from the Second Coming until the Great White Throne...

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If Christ raises all men "AT the Last day", and some are resurrected 1,000 years before the others, which "DAY" fits scripture?

Well, number 5 is the only one that fits.

Yes, of course there is a resurrection for all believers that occurs at the specific point in time called the last day, at the last trump...this event for the righteous can not be construed to occur over the entire thousand year period, because it all happens in a moment of time...but, there is another resurrection that happens at the end of the 1000 years, but of course this also is not an event that spans over the 1000 year period, but only happens at the end. So only two resurrections are in view here...The one I am specifically pointing to has to do with the righteous not being resurrected until the last day...if they are ALL resurrected on the last day, it does not fit within pre trib in any manner, for there is no way to portray the last day to occur before the tribulation starts, and even it was attempted it would not fit the criteria, either with Paul nor with Jesus, for in both cases ALL believers are resurrected at the same time. 

This is plainly shown in Rev. 11:18 where it says 'Now is the time of the dead, that they should be judged..and that he would give reward to:

1) His saints

2) The prophets

3) Them that fear his name, both small and great

This is completely foreign to Pre trib, as they have the saints resurrected, judged, and rewarded before the tribulation starts...John does not say 'Before the tribulation is the time of the dead that they should be judged and rewarded...' No. When the 7th Trumpet sounds, he says "Now is the time of the dead that they should be judged..' So the distinction is clear. Pre trib has the time for the saints to be resurrected before the tribulation and John in Revelation shows them to be judged and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet which is immediately after the tribulation of those days, not before the tribulation.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Some could be resurrected 1 year earlier, some in the middle and some at the end

Not when Paul says 'We shall ALL be changed at the last trump...'

Here is what Paul says "Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christs' AT HIS COMING.' So Jesus rose first, the only other time there is a resurrection is at his coming...he does not say Christ the first fruits and afterward some at Christ's coming and then some at his next coming...' This is  non sense and adding both an additional coming plus an additional resurrection not shown in scripture. 

It cannot be read 'Now is the time of the dead that they should be judged,' and then say, 'Before the tribulation was the time of the dead that they should be judged...' The saints and the prophets and all that fear his name are not in the resurrection put forth by Pre trib...they have only saints from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture...Revelation and Jesus is not making these distinctions...Revelation 11 has all the saints, which would include both Old and New Testament saints...he has the prophets which would include both old and new testament prophets...he has all those that fear his name both small and great which covers all saints no matter what time frame they were in. 

Jesus also does not make these artificial distinctions...he says 

1) Those that see the son and believe on him...These would include both old and new testament saints

2) Those that God gave to Christ...this includes all saints also, as Jesus said that God gave him all the sheep that belonged to God

3) Those that eat his flesh and drink his blood...this is new testament saints, but would also include tribulation saints as they are new testament saints and in the church as much as any other new testament believer is in the church.

4) Those whom God has drawn to Christ...this of course includes all new testament saints as he said no man can come to me except the spirit of God draws him...so again the two witnesses, the tribulation saints and all new testament saints

The distinctions given by pre trib are artificial markers to denote multiple resurrections that are not in the text...yes there are distinctions between a believer who lived in Old Testament times and a believer that lived in New Testament times, but they have nothing to do with the descriptions given by Paul, Jesus, and John about who gets raised and when.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But it was 70 YEARS till Judah was released - a YEAR  for a DAY (Ezek.4:6). So, if we let scripture interpret scripture, things make sense.

Yes, there are 2 places where the year / day method was used, but it is not an across the board rule that pertains to all prophecy...Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights...he was not in the heart of the earth for 3 years...when it says the two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days it does not mean they will prophecy for 1260 years...

Yes, let scripture interpret scripture...but this is not a rule for all prophecies..

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Yes, all those believers in the grave and those who have died and not put into a grave such as cremated, died at sea etc will rise and be resurrected before the rapture of the Church. 

Yes you are right...the resurrection happens first, however the point I was getting at was WHEN this resurrection takes place..Jesus said it would happen on the last day, which is not before the tribulation...hence there can be no rapture before the last day...

Blessings to you 

[transmogrified]

Hello The Pup

The reason it cannot be before the tribulation is that 'the time of the dead that they should be judged' and the time when God rewards 'the saints, the prophets, and them that fear his name both small and great...' occurs at the 7th trumpet according to Rev. 11:18...which would be immediately after the tribulation of those days, not immediately before the tribulation of those days...There are 6 trumpets that sound before the 7th and at the 7th Trumpet is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...The kingdoms of this world do not fall before the tribulation occurs...the kingdoms of this world falls at Armageddon, so the last day and the 7th trumpet and the last trumpet are all the same time period..immediately after the tribulation of those days...If pre trib wants to think the last day happens before the tribulation it would not agree with what Jesus said in John 6 for he said ALL believers, both old and new testament believers would be resurrected at the last day...it is easy to see the tribulation saints (which are new testament believers) and the 2 witnesses, (also new testament believers) could not be resurrected before the tribulation started because they had not yet even been killed.

 

[AdHoc]

On 4/4/2022 at 5:49 AM, transmogrified said:

Yes, of course there is a resurrection for all believers that occurs at the specific point in time called the last day, at the last trump...this event for the righteous can not be construed to occur over the entire thousand year period, because it all happens in a moment of time...but, there is another resurrection that happens at the end of the 1000 years, but of course this also is not an event that spans over the 1000 year period, but only happens at the end. So only two resurrections are in view here...The one I am specifically pointing to has to do with the righteous not being resurrected until the last day...if they are ALL resurrected on the last day, it does not fit within pre trib in any manner, for there is no way to portray the last day to occur before the tribulation starts, and even it was attempted it would not fit the criteria, either with Paul nor with Jesus, for in both cases ALL believers are resurrected at the same time. 

I don't understand. According to John 5:26-29 there is ONE resurrection

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that this is within "an HOUR" they ALL "COME FORTH" (2 Times) (v.28 & 29). Yet you admit above TWO resurrections, and scripture is plain about the gap - "THE "one thousand years (the article is present in THREE mentions of this 1,000 years and missing in THREE mentions. That is, six mentions of a specific 1,000 years. But this same passage, Revelation 20, says that the gap is 1,000 years. How do you reconcile this?

But this is not all. 1st Thessalonians 4:4:13-17 speaks of a resurrection and Rapture to the presence of Christ IN THE CLOUDS. But Matthew 24:31 speaks of a "gathering" AFTER He leaves the clouds and this is a gathering from the "four winds" to the Land of Canaan (Ezek.37:9-12). Then He saves Jerusalem, moves 70 miles north of Jerusalem to fight a battle, then ends up in Bozrah, Capital of Edom, fights another battle, return to set up His throne of glory, Judges the Church, Judges Israel, and judges the sheep and the goats, judges the "rest of the dead" - all in 24 hours - the last day! But Revelation 20 inserts 1,000 years, mentioned SIX times, which makes the "last day of 24 hours absurd: 

For example, Let's be generous and say that 1% percent of men are true Christians. At the Bema (a traveling throne) we Christians will be judged. It is a traveling throne because our Lord Jesus is on His journey to earth. He pauses in the clouds and judges the Christians. 1% of 8 billion is 8o million. This in only the living saints. Each one must give an account of himself. Let's say you are given 20 seconds. That is, 80 million times 20 seconds divided by 31,536,000 seconds per year gives just under 51 years. Now, I would agree that Christ can do a anything, but scripture seems to show that "EACH" judgment is BEFORE THE OTHERS for  1st Corinthians 4:5-6 says;

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."

That is, "every man" hears "every thing that was conceived in darkness. Look like 51 years is very conservative. But 1 day ....???

[Keras]

It's a shame and an indictment that we Christians have so many different interpretations of what will happen in the end times.

Revelation is the only Book that gives us a correct sequence of events. When John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century, he was told it was to tell the servants of Jesus what was to happen hereafter.  Commencing with the first five Seals, opened when Jesus Ascended, proved by how we have experienced terrible wars, many famines, shocking plagues and disastrous economic failures.    Then all the nasty and horrible deaths of the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still ongoing. 

But the Sixth Seal will be the event which will change the world and commence lead up to the glorious Return of Jesus  for His Millennium reign. 

The ONLY people whom Jesus will resurrect at His Return, are the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.  The rest of the dead must wait another thousand years, when everyone who has ever lived will be brought to stand before God on His Great White Throne.   Revelation 20:4-15

ANY ideas that there will be a resurrection, a glorification, or a rapture to heaven, other that what will happen to the GT martyrs, before the real, actual and only; LAST DAY; at the end of the Millennium, is wrong, is a false teaching and will never happen. 

 

 

[transmogrified]

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I don't understand. According to John 5:26-29 there is ONE resurrection

Yes, Paul said there would be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust...so he is saying the same thing you are saying...one resurrection in which both good and bad come forth in one hour...

 

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Notice that this is within "an HOUR" they ALL "COME FORTH" (2 Times) (v.28 & 29). Yet you admit above TWO resurrections, and scripture is plain about the gap - "THE "one thousand years (the article is present in THREE mentions of this 1,000 years and missing in THREE mentions. That is, six mentions of a specific 1,000 years. But this same passage, Revelation 20, says that the gap is 1,000 years. How do you reconcile this?

I am sorry if I was not clear...the resurrection I am referring to is on the Last Day that pertains to the Second Coming, not to the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years...

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But this is not all. 1st Thessalonians 4:4:13-17 speaks of a resurrection and Rapture to the presence of Christ IN THE CLOUDS

Yes the Lord descends from heaven and we that are alive are caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

The thing to realize here is how the last day resurrection fits into this...when it says 'the dead in Christ will rise first,' what does that do the timeline? It immediately locates us to the last day, not sometime before the tribulation...this is why the last day resurrection of all believers is so crucial to understanding when the rapture takes place...

So although it doesn't come out in this text and say 'And the dead in Christ will rise first, and this resurrection happens on the last day,' when you insert what Jesus said in John 6 that 'All those whom God has drawn will be resurrected on the last day,' it becomes clear that these people who are getting resurrected here in the 'dead in Christ' category are also in the 'all those whom God has drawn category' in John 6.

There is no other category to put any of the saints into...When Jesus said 'ALL those who God has given to me will be raised on the last day,' it is not a private interpretation at all to say 'Well, Jesus said he would raise "ALL those who God has given to him on the last day...' There is no other way to take it...and he does not just say it one place...he goes over 4 different categories that makes it un mistakable who is being resurrected and when they are being resurrected.

So what else does knowing when the resurrection make us understand? It makes us realize that the coming in Matthew 24 immediately after the tribulation of those days, would make 1 Thess. 4:17 the exact same event...why? Because of when Jesus said the resurrection of all believers would take place...And what else does it do with 1 Thes. 4:17? It eliminates it from being a pre trib event. Why? Because when Jesus said ALL that believe would be resurrected on the last day, no believers could possibly be resurrected at any other time. 

So rather than making two different events out of 1 Thes. 4 and Matthew 24, it needs to be understood that this is the same event being described in two different ways...Remember placing 1 Thess. 4 before the tribulation is impossible according to when Jesus says the believers will be resurrected...in other words 1 Thess. 4 is not describing a pre tribulation event, so we can't lean back on 1 Thess. 4 as if it is an entirely different event that happens at another time and so therefore it can't be Matt. 24...No. There is no pre trib event of a resurrection, so the ONLY place to put 1 Thess. 4 is at the same time of Matthew 24...so we can't say the believers get resurrected twice immediately after the tribulation and try to think the two accounts into two entirely different events. No...they are the same event. One account is giving details about what is happening that the other account does not give and likewise they are both talking about the same Second Coming.

The account in 1 Thess. 4 uses the word 'the Lord shall descend from heaven..' Matthew says 'they shall see the son of man coming' these are the same thing...one account says 'we are caught up to be with them in the air,' the other account says 'he will gather his elect from the four winds (the earth) and from the uttermost parts of heaven...How did the saints get up to heaven? They are the ones who Paul said would rise first...where do they rise to? They rise to heaven, and when God gathers his elect from heaven and earth it is meaning the same thing as when the living meet the resurrected saints in the air...this is the gathering Matthew 24 is talking about.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But Revelation 20 inserts 1,000 years, mentioned SIX times, which makes the "last day of 24 hours absurd: 

Yes, I was not meaning the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years and the one at the Second coming took place on one day...this is where the analogy of one day as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day comes into effect...in some settings the Day of Lord is only talking about one single day, and in other contexts it is talking about the whole thousand year period.

For example, when it says we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, it is obvious from what is said that it is not going to take one thousand years for this event to take place, even though it says it will happen on the Day of the Lord..

But in other contexts, when it says 'they go up from year to year and keep the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem, we know this does not occur on just one day, but it operates continually during the whole 1000 year time span.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

At the Bema (a traveling throne) we Christians will be judged. It is a traveling throne because our Lord Jesus is on His journey to earth.

The judgment seat of Christ is Matthew 25 when it says 'When the Son of man shall come (not when he is in the air) THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...he is now on the earth...not in heaven...not in the clouds..this is the same event spoken of in Daniel, 'When the Ancient of days did SIT...these are the same events being described as to when Jesus sets up his throne on the earth at the Second Coming.

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This in only the living saints. Each one must give an account of himself. Let's say you are given 20 seconds. That is, 80 million times 20 seconds divided by 31,536,000 seconds per year gives just under 51 years.

We are not discussing how long it takes for God to judge the world...the issue is the resurrection of the dead and who gets resurrected when it takes place...we already see how long it will take for God to resurrect the believers...it is not 51 years, but is only a twinkle of an eye, which can easily take place on one single day...

Blessings to you- Gary