You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is the major error....Enoch and Elijah are not bodily in heaven...Jesus said no one has ascended up into heaven and that he is the only one who has immortality...Jesus is the first to rise and be glorified...if Enoch or Elijah were there before him, he would not be the first...Jesus said no one has ascended up into heaven hundreds of years after Enoch and Elijah. 

Dear Brother, you have written much, all of which is to shew certain scriptures not to be true. I post them and let them stand.

Gen.5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb.11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

2nd Kings 2:1, 11; And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. .... 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You have misread John 3 because you did not add the context. Here it is;

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Lord Jesus is revealed in the Book of John to be the eternal and pre-existent One. In John 3 our Lord is talking to Nicodemus, who, as a Pharisee, ruled over Israel as both Law-givers and political leaders (Matt.23:2), but had no idea of the what the rebirth was. Our Lord Jesus explains to Nicodemus that he had seen things done in heaven, but Nicodemus did not even believe things done on earth. He tells Nicodemus what He, as the Eternal One, Who is BOTH on earth AND at the same time in heaven (v.13), that Nicodemus should have known about the rebirth because Moses wrote of the Tree of Life. Here was THE prime example of God and Giver of eternal life being on earth but ready to do a work in heaven.

In the matter of Elijah's letter, you have ASSUMED that all information in 1st, and 2nd Kings, and 1st and 2nd Chronicles is chronological. But you cannot prove it. The letter to king Jehoram is not dated. The very next Chapter has Elisha (who came after Elijah) advising Jehoshaphat who came before Jehoram.

[transmogrified]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:34 PM, AdHoc said:

Dear Brother, you have written much, all of which is to shew certain scriptures not to be true. I post them and let them stand.

Gen.5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb.11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

2nd Kings 2:1, 11; And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. .... 11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Hi AdHoc-

   Yes, of course the scriptures stand...the issue with Elijah and Enoch both is that we are addressing the idea that they ascended up into heaven and received immortal bodies...this cannot be in that Jesus said no man hath ascended up into heaven and also the fact that he was the first that should rise and be glorified...he cannot be the first and also have Enoch and Elijah glorified before he was...

The issue with Elijah is easily resolved in that he did not go up into the third heaven where God is, but rather he went up into the heaven where the birds fly and then let back down somewhere on the earth...so it is not contradicting scripture to say 'And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven...'

The issue with Enoch is more difficult in that I do not understand the phrase 'that he should not see death..' of course I can believe that he should not see death, but reconciling it with him not being in an immortal body leaves one with the thought that if he is still in a mortal body, then he is alive somewhere and thousands of years old...which of course is not the case...the other issue is that it states 'and all the days of Enoch were 365 years...' yes, it does not add the typical ending where it says 'and he died,' but it still does say that 365 years was all his days, in that it would be he had no more days than that...

I am open to any understanding of what happened to him, but it can not contradict the issue of no one has immortality except for Jesus and that no man has ascended up into heaven...of course it is not that no one will ever ascend up into heaven, for we know the dead in Christ will in fact ascend up into heaven, but at the time Jesus said this it has to be acknowledged that no one had ever ascended up before him. 

On 4/17/2022 at 4:34 PM, AdHoc said:

You have misread John 3 because you did not add the context. Here it is;

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Lord Jesus is revealed in the Book of John to be the eternal and pre-existent One. In John 3 our Lord is talking to Nicodemus, who, as a Pharisee, ruled over Israel as both Law-givers and political leaders (Matt.23:2), but had no idea of the what the rebirth was. Our Lord Jesus explains to Nicodemus that he had seen things done in heaven, but Nicodemus did not even believe things done on earth. He tells Nicodemus what He, as the Eternal One, Who is BOTH on earth AND at the same time in heaven (v.13), that Nicodemus should have known about the rebirth because Moses wrote of the Tree of Life. Here was THE prime example of God and Giver of eternal life being on earth but ready to do a work in heaven.

There is nothing in the above context quoted that would disanull what Jesus said, that no man hath ascended up into heaven...it is not just this quote, but it is also in the other 2 issues that no one has immortality and that Jesus was the first to rise and be glorified...if someone actually did rise before Jesus, then he was not the first...

On 4/17/2022 at 4:34 PM, AdHoc said:

In the matter of Elijah's letter, you have ASSUMED that all information in 1st, and 2nd Kings, and 1st and 2nd Chronicles is chronological. But you cannot prove it. The letter to king Jehoram is not dated. The very next Chapter has Elisha (who came after Elijah) advising Jehoshaphat who came before Jehoram.

Yes, I cannot prove  the actual time when Elijah was taken up, or when the letter was written...it seems very awkward that from the time Ahaziah died it would jump some 8 years or more ahead to when Elijah was taken up, and I am not saying it is impossible that it could have been written that way.

Whether he wrote it before or after is not essential to whether he ascended up to heaven or not...if it could be confirmed he wrote it after his ascension up it would only add confirmation he was still on the earth afterwards, but if not, it still could not disanul the fact that no had ascended up to heaven...

But you are right, I should not have presented it as if it was a confirmed fact concerning the time line...

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hi AdHoc-

   Yes, of course the scriptures stand...the issue with Elijah and Enoch both is that we are addressing the idea that they ascended up into heaven and received immortal bodies...this cannot be in that Jesus said no man hath ascended up into heaven and also the fact that he was the first that should rise and be glorified...he cannot be the first and also have Enoch and Elijah glorified before he was...

The issue with Elijah is easily resolved in that he did not go up into the third heaven where God is, but rather he went up into the heaven where the birds fly and then let back down somewhere on the earth...so it is not contradicting scripture to say 'And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven...'

The issue with Enoch is more difficult in that I do not understand the phrase 'that he should not see death..' of course I can believe that he should not see death, but reconciling it with him not being in an immortal body leaves one with the thought that if he is still in a mortal body, then he is alive somewhere and thousands of years old...which of course is not the case...the other issue is that it states 'and all the days of Enoch were 365 years...' yes, it does not add the typical ending where it says 'and he died,' but it still does say that 365 years was all his days, in that it would be he had no more days than that...

I am open to any understanding of what happened to him, but it can not contradict the issue of no one has immortality except for Jesus and that no man has ascended up into heaven...of course it is not that no one will ever ascend up into heaven, for we know the dead in Christ will in fact ascend up into heaven, but at the time Jesus said this it has to be acknowledged that no one had ever ascended up before him. 

There is nothing in the above context quoted that would disanull what Jesus said, that no man hath ascended up into heaven...it is not just this quote, but it is also in the other 2 issues that no one has immortality and that Jesus was the first to rise and be glorified...if someone actually did rise before Jesus, then he was not the first...

Yes, I cannot prove  the actual time when Elijah was taken up, or when the letter was written...it seems very awkward that from the time Ahaziah died it would jump some 8 years or more ahead to when Elijah was taken up, and I am not saying it is impossible that it could have been written that way.

Whether he wrote it before or after is not essential to whether he ascended up to heaven or not...if it could be confirmed he wrote it after his ascension up it would only add confirmation he was still on the earth afterwards, but if not, it still could not disanul the fact that no had ascended up to heaven...

But you are right, I should not have presented it as if it was a confirmed fact concerning the time line...

Thank you for your balanced answer. Maybe we should both go back and re-read the verses and sleep on them. From my side, Enoch and Elijah are not that important in regard to be being dead or alive. But there is an interesting twist. In Revelation 11 we have Two Witnesses. The Greek word we render "Witness" does not mean they witnesses for Christ. It means that they were witness to events to which the will attest to even unto death. Now the scene in Revelation 11 is of Jerusalem and its Temple. During the Beast's reign Jerusalem is the POLITICAL center of the earth as the Best has power over all nations and lives there. God's wrath is poured out over the whole earth because of men's wickedness. The only person left alive who WITNESSED God's impending judgement on the whole world was Enoch.

Likewise, Jerusalem and its Temple will be the religious capital of the world because the Beast sets himself up in the Temple and demands worship. This both idol worship and the breaking of the Law of Moses. God's judgment on Israel for this under king Ahab was three and a half years of no rain. The only LIVING man who WITNESSED God's wrath of Israel is Elijah.

If God needs two men who WITNESSED His wrath on (i) the earth, and (ii) Israel, then it would be very convenient to have Enoch and Elijah.

Just thinking.

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your balanced answer. Maybe we should both go back and re-read the verses and sleep on them. From my side, Enoch and Elijah are not that important in regard to be being dead or alive. But there is an interesting twist. In Revelation 11 we have Two Witnesses. The Greek word we render "Witness" does not mean they witnesses for Christ. It means that they were witness to events to which the will attest to even unto death. Now the scene in Revelation 11 is of Jerusalem and its Temple. During the Beast's reign Jerusalem is the POLITICAL center of the earth as the Best has power over all nations and lives there. God's wrath is poured out over the whole earth because of men's wickedness. The only person left alive who WITNESSED God's impending judgement on the whole world was Enoch.

Likewise, Jerusalem and its Temple will be the religious capital of the world because the Beast sets himself up in the Temple and demands worship. This both idol worship and the breaking of the Law of Moses. God's judgment on Israel for this under king Ahab was three and a half years of no rain. The only LIVING man who WITNESSED God's wrath of Israel is Elijah.

If God needs two men who WITNESSED His wrath on (i) the earth, and (ii) Israel, then it would be very convenient to have Enoch and Elijah.

Just thinking.

I believe the two witnesses will be Enoch/Elijah because they never experienced physical death

The two witnesses are going to be a replay of Moses/Aaron against pharaoh of Egypt, all plagues as often as they will

[transmogrified]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

From my side, Enoch and Elijah are not that important in regard to be being dead or alive.

The issue is they cannot be alive in mortal bodies, for the definition of being mortal means being subject to death, and they cannot be immortal for Jesus is the only one who has immortality...there is no other option except they died and are awaiting the resurrection like everyone else...the only thing I don't understand is what is meant that 'he should not see death..'

I have looked at this for years and read many comments about this but nothing ever seemed to fit all the criteria so until God opens my eyes on it, about all I can say is 'For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known..."

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But there is an interesting twist. In Revelation 11 we have Two Witnesses. The Greek word we render "Witness" does not mean they witnesses for Christ.

The word 'witness' here is used in many other scriptures that it means a believer or a disciple or a follower of Christ...the word 'martyr' is also used but it doesn't have to mean you physically died for Christ... even just being a disciple is being a martyr because in order to have spiritual life, you must be crucified with Christ.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It means that they were witness to events to which the will attest to even unto death.

All the believers (or witnesses) during this time will witness things in the sense of seeing things happen...

 

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Now the scene in Revelation 11 is of Jerusalem and its Temple. During the Beast's reign Jerusalem is the POLITICAL center of the earth as the Best has power over all nations and lives there.

  Yes indeed.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

God's wrath is poured out over the whole earth because of men's wickedness.

God's wrath is poured out on the wicked...not on his saints

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The only person left alive who WITNESSED God's impending judgement on the whole world was Enoch.

Noah and his sons and wives witnessed the judgment on the whole world...At 365 years old, Enoch was some 700 years before the flood.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Likewise, Jerusalem and its Temple will be the religious capital of the world because the Beast sets himself up in the Temple and demands worship.

Yes indeed.

 

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This both idol worship and the breaking of the Law of Moses. God's judgment on Israel for this under king Ahab was three and a half years of no rain. The only LIVING man who WITNESSED God's wrath of Israel is Elijah.

There were 700 prophets who had not bowed the knee to Baal in the days of Elijah

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If God needs two men who WITNESSED His wrath on (i) the earth, and (ii) Israel, then it would be very convenient to have Enoch and Elijah.

Enoch died before the flood and there were 700 prophets besides Elijah in his day...there is no premise for God needing two men who witnessed his wrath on the earth.

Blessings to you-

Edited April 25, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

I believe the two witnesses will be Enoch/Elijah because they never experienced physical death

If they ascended to heaven and are there now, then they would have to have an immortal body...but it says Jesus is the only one who has immortality...being mortal means one is subject to death...

Websters:

Quote

 

MOR'TAL, adjective [Latin mortalis, from mors, death, or morior, to die, that is, to fall.]

1. Subject to death; destined to die. Man is mortal

 

On the other hand, they could not have ascended to heaven because Jesus said no man has ascended to heaven...of course at the resurrection, it shows the saints ascending to heaven, but at the time Jesus said this no one had ascended to heaven.

Elijah can be resolved because there are 3 divisions in the heavens..there is the one where the birds fly, one where the sun and moon are, and then the third heaven where God is...

To say Elijah went up to the third heaven where God is would have contradicted what Jesus said, but if he went to the heaven where the birds fly it would not...It nowhere states Enoch went to heaven, but rather that he was translated and that God took him that he should not see death...If he is in his mortal body still then it would violate Genesis that it states 'All the days of Enoch were 365 years..if that is all the days of Enoch, then that is all the days of Enoch...there were no more days than 365 years...If it is claimed he has his immortal body then that would violate the scripture that Jesus is the only one who has immortality...

The issue is to get the understanding where all these scriptures fit...not to take one and set aside the others..

There is no scriptural requirement that the two witnesses have to be any more than what it says they are...it says they are the two olive branches and the two candlesticks that stand before the Lord of the whole earth...they are men who God gives power to during the tribulation...just like Elijah was a man who God gave power to..

Blessings to you

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The issue is they cannot be alive in mortal bodies, for the definition of being mortal means being subject to death, and they cannot be immortal for Jesus is the only one who has immortality...there is no other option except they died and are awaiting the resurrection like everyone else...the only thing I don't understand is what is meant that 'he should not see death..'

I have looked at this for years and read many comments about this but nothing ever seemed to fit all the criteria so until God opens my eyes on it, about all I can say is 'For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known..."

The word 'witness' here is used in many other scriptures that it means a believer or a disciple or a follower of Christ...the word 'martyr' is also used but it doesn't have to mean you physically died for Christ... even just being a disciple is being a martyr because in order to have spiritual life, you must be crucified with Christ.

All the believers (or witnesses) during this time will witness things in the sense of seeing things happen...

 

  Yes indeed.

God's wrath is poured out on the wicked...not on his saints

Noah and his sons and wives witnessed the judgment on the whole world...At 365 years old, Enoch was some 700 years before the flood.

Yes indeed.

 

There were 700 prophets who had not bowed the knee to Baal in the days of Elijah

Enoch died before the flood and there were 700 prophets besides Elijah in his day...there is no premise for God needing two men who witnessed his wrath on the earth.

Blessings to you-

Thank you, and likewise blessings to you.

If you go back through my postings you will not find the concept or any statement about mortal/ immortal bodies. If you go back through your postings, you will see that you introduced this theme - and then argued about it. Although this is a valid subject, it is rather simple. Here is my understanding.

Mortal means that it is capable of dying. Immortal means it is not capable of dying. If Enoch and Elijah did not see death, they are mortal because according to Romans 5:12-14 death comes to every man who came from Adam. That is, they are capable of dying. This crucial if they are the Two Witnesses of Revelation because they are both killed.

Hebrews 9:27 says that God has ordained that any man can only die once. And 1st Corinthians 15 (i) that all in Adam die, (ii) and all will be raised (vs.22-26). But it also says that there will be differing glories of the risen - some TERRESTRIAL and some CELESTIAL. But Luke 20:35-36 that those that "ATTAIN" to the next age cannot die. By selecting a small select group, the grammar implies that while SOME cannot die, SOME CAN DIE. So you have a small select group with eternal life who CANNOT DIE. They are Immortal. Then you have the rest who CAN DIE but won't because it is given to a man "once to die". They are kept alive by the "leaves of the Tree of Life" (Rev.22:2). Thus, they are still MORTAL but will not die.

Of course, I am aware that a group of men and women - those Christians living when Christ comes - do not need to be resurrected. they never died. But because their bodies are not worthy to inherit the Kingdom of God (1st Cor.15:50), they must be CHANGED. And this change is to have a body with "Celestial glory". So they were MORTAL, never died, and were made IMMORTAL

- A Christian is MORTAL and if he dies he will need resurrection. Because he has eternal life, he becomes IMMORTAL in resurrection
- A Christian is MORTAL, but if he is alive at the coming of the Lord Jesus, he will be CHANGED and becomes IMMORTAL
- An Israelite is MORTAL, and if he dies he will need resurrection. Because he never believed he does not have eternal life and needs to be kept alive
- A Gentile is MORTAL and will die. At resurrection he is still MORTAL as he has no eternal life. But he will be kept alive.
- Because of eternal life in some (the Christians) because of faith, they will not die again. Although the Israelite is MORTAL he will be kept alive. So death is defeated. A Gentile, though he is MORTAL, will be kept alive and so scripture attests the that mortality has put on immortality and death is swallowed up in victory.
- Only God HAS immortality. Christians HAVE eternal life and so cannot die. The Nations are mortal but by the works of Christ are kept alive. Thus, death is defeated but not all men are immortal.

[transmogrified]

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If you go back through my postings you will not find the concept or any statement about mortal/ immortal bodies.

The issue of mortal and immortal bodies was not brought up because you never said anything about it your postings...

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If you go back through your postings, you will see that you introduced this theme - and then argued about it.

They were brought up to correct the erroneous belief  that Enoch and Elijah have immortality and have ascended up into heaven. Jesus said no man has ascended up to heaven and  also that He is the only one who has immortality.

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Mortal means that it is capable of dying.

 Agreed.

 

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Immortal means it is not capable of dying.

Agreed.

15 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If Enoch and Elijah did not see death, they are mortal because according to Romans 5:12-14 death comes to every man who came from Adam. That is, they are capable of dying. This crucial if they are the Two Witnesses of Revelation because they are both killed.

In saying this the implication is that both Enoch and Elijah have never died, but that they will die at the end of the tribulation.. If Enoch never died and never ascended to heaven then he would have been some 3000 years old living on the earth when Jesus was here. If he was still alive at the end of the tribulation, he would be still on the earth and be some 5000 years old. Is this your belief that Enoch is still on the earth and is some 5000 years old?

And if you believe in a pre trib rapture, and that the saints return with Jesus at the end of the tribulation, then Enoch would be raptured seeing he would be among those 'who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord' and he would receive his immortal body at that time and would not be present on the earth the last 3. 5 years to then be killed by the beast.

If Enoch never died and never ascended to heaven where is he now?

If he has already died he would be resurrected at the end of the tribulation as an Old Testament saint...in order for him to be killed as one of the two witnesses at the end of the tribulation there would have to be another resurrection for him into a mortal body before the tribulation so he could then be killed at the end of the tribulation, for which there is no scripture to substantiate. 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by transmogrified
According to pre trib, if Enoch died he would be resurrected at the end of the tribulation as an Old Testament saint instead of being resurrected before the tribulation as I first stated.

[AdHoc]

On 4/26/2022 at 6:50 AM, transmogrified said:

They were brought up to correct the erroneous belief  that Enoch and Elijah have immortality and have ascended up into heaven. Jesus said no man has ascended up to heaven and  also that He is the only one who has immortality.

I'm willing to discuss anything with anybody, but how can a man display "erroneous belief" if he never addressed the subject. That's why I said, go through my postings.

Be that as it may, I have already given my proofs why it is feasible that Enoch and Elijah live on today. And I showed indications and evidence that it presents no problem to scripture for a man to live bodily in heaven. I also showed what John 3 means when it says that, "no man has ascended to heaven". I am not surprised that you do not accept them. Adam lived for 930 years and Methuselah for 969 years. Do you believe that?

I think that we been round this theme twice already, and I am happy to walk away from it. It's been a pleasure to exchange ideas, and I like your courteous way.

Go well brother.

[transmogrified]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:34 PM, AdHoc said:

You have misread John 3 because you did not add the context. Here it is;

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Lord Jesus is revealed in the Book of John to be the eternal and pre-existent One. In John 3 our Lord is talking to Nicodemus, who, as a Pharisee, ruled over Israel as both Law-givers and political leaders (Matt.23:2), but had no idea of the what the rebirth was. Our Lord Jesus explains to Nicodemus that he had seen things done in heaven, but Nicodemus did not even believe things done on earth. He tells Nicodemus what He, as the Eternal One, Who is BOTH on earth AND at the same time in heaven (v.13), that Nicodemus should have known about the rebirth because Moses wrote of the Tree of Life. Here was THE prime example of God and Giver of eternal life being on earth but ready to do a work in heaven.

 

Hello again....

    I have read what was said about how to understand that 'no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven...'

I can not see anything in this explanation that would cause someone to think he really didn't mean that no man has ascended up to heaven...

Jesus said no man has ascended up to heaven except he that came down from heaven...how would the ignorance of Nicodemus about the new birth make that mean that there have been people who have ascended up to heaven? 

How would the ignorance of Nicodemus concerning the tree of life make that mean that there have been other people beside Jesus who have ascended up to heaven?

The scripture is quoted that no man hath ascended up to heaven, yet these reasons are offered to make one understand that he did not really mean no man has ascended up to heaven...I do not see anything in this explanation that would cause anyone to think he really didn't mean what he said....

How does Jesus telling Nicodemus that no man has ascended up to heaven except for him help him understand the new birth, and why would Jesus telling him no man hath ascended up to heaven except for himself cause Nicodemus or anyone to realize there were others beside Jesus who has ascended up to heaven?