A challenage for you Apologetics

[yomotalking]

Sorry, Logic does demand that Christ existed in the flesh for Christianity to exist.

The belief that someone existed does not require that person to have actually existed. Children believe that Santa exists, does this mean that he had to exist at some point?

For Christianity to be true, yes, Christ would have to be real. However, for the belief that Christianity is true, all you need is the belief that Christ is real.

Ian

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LOL...there was St. Nick!!!

[yomotalking]

Before I share my thoughts with you, it's nice to meet you Inti.

[yomotalking]

As for the Bible being "written history" that is a very debatable subject. It was certain written. But that doesn't mean it was factual. If you use it as your only source of information what happens when its wrong?

There is the problem with your approach Inti. It seems that you have assumed the Bible is unreliable without giving it an honest appraisal. Have you truly read it and studied it? Be honest now. Usually, those who start off and say, "Don't quote the Bible", say so because they do not know what it says and to them, it is just a book that threatens them.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, felt different. He wrote in a letter to his friend, Jedidiah Morse, on 28 Feb 1797:

It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire.

As for proving George Washington was at Trenton without using written testimony is a little silly. You are trying to compare two different types of data source.

If I had a newspaper, dated, with a photograph in it. Showing Washington at a famous Trenton landmark, how could you refute it?

Come on now. You can't be serious. I saw a picture yesterday distributed through an e-mail that showed both George W. Bush and his father fishing with the ravaged New Orleans behind them. Just like John Jay wrote...

The Bible is nothing like a modern day source of information, written or otherwise, its author(s) is/are unknown (please don't say Mathew Mark Luke and John number amoung them), its well known that it has had many different revisions and each revision will mean changes creep it.

It is obvious that you do not know or understand the progression of translations and how the more reliable translations are from early manuscripts. Also, you wrongly state the the authors are unknown? Not true and saying it doesn't make it true.

When viewed objectivly the Bible is (im sorry to say this and I mean no offence) nothing more than an ancient story book.

No offense to me friend. Maybe you need to read and study this book of antiquity for yourself first before you judge its worth. Regardless, just because it is "ancient" does not mean it lacks truth or relevance. Actually, I'm siding with John Jay here and offer that ALL source of information regardless of age should be questioned and tested. Honestly, your comments regarding the Bible reflect a lack of knowledge...no offense intended.

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well done, SBG

[Pipit]

So, Islam, like atheism, like Christianity, like all other world views, must answer the questions posted above. Now, I am not an expert on Islam, so I invite others to add to or question what is here. As well, please note that i am not endorsing Islam in this post, but simply attempting to provide Islam's answers to these questions....

So, where did we come from?

Islam follows a similar creation narative as Christianity. Allah (God) created everything in six days, and that it was in harmony and balanced. Yet unlike the Christian account of creation, Islam claims that life appeared gradually: "What is the matter with you, that you are not conscious of Allah's majesty, seeing that it is He Who has created you in diverse stages? See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (glorious) lamp? And Allah has produced you from the earth, growing (gradually)" (71:13-17). There are other passages in the Qur'an (or Koran) that say life happened in stages, over a period of time. However, Adam and Eve were special creations made directly by Allah, with the purpose of living life to please Allah.

As with the creation narrative in Christianity, one can easily hold this as myth. Yet it completely explains the origin of things and does reflect the reality around us in the universe we see.

Why is are we in the condition we are in? Why is there evil in the world?

Islam claims that man kind was created with free will. When Adam and Eve sinned (though Islam does not hold to the idea of orinigal sin), they begged Allah for forgiveness. He punished them by giving them a mortal life (meaning that they would die) but promised that in the end man would be reunited with Allah. Islam also claims that all are born in natural submission to Allah (20:122-123).

The reason why evil still exists, even though Allah forgave Adam and Eve of their sin, is because of man's pride and rebellion. Sin exists became man tries to partner himself with Allah and make himself equal. Pride is the cardnial sin of Islam, and because of pride there is rebellion against Allah.

Yet, there is a serious flaw: if all are born into natural submission to Allah, then where did pride come from? Was it Adam and Eve's first sin that spurred pride into being not just in them, but into everyone, so that despite their natural submission (which would also be perfectly submitted) to Allah they are naturally prone to rebel? This itself brings further questions: if pride is naturally a part of ourselves, then can we be naturally submitted to Allah?

The only answer is this: that pride enters us sometime after birth. But where does that pride come from? When does that pride, that rebellion against Allah, manifest itself? Though Islam states that at the age of puperty, we must start giving an account of ourselves, yet beyond this, no answer to when and how pride enters is offered. So, Islam has some difficulties in explaining sin (and the origin of pride). Again, I write this without a complete understanding of Islam, so I invite others to attempt to better answer this question.

What is the solution to the problem of sin?

Submission--which is what the word islam means. Islam states that harmony with Allah can only be achieved with perfect submission, and with perfect submission comes true repentence, in which one is declared perfect. This means that the solution to sin lies in man's efforts to submit themselves to Allah. Allah does not actively provide a solution to the sin problem. Instead, Allah stands over and watches man's actions, and judges man accordingly.

Where are we going? Where is history leading to?

Islam holds that there is a purpose to life, to please Allah and live for him. It also believes that there is life after death, and for those who have submitted themselves to Allah and have shown themselves faithful there is heaven and reward. For those who don't, there is eternal fire. Heaven and hell are determined on deeds...

This adds something to Islam.. it makes it a religion of fear and fanaticalism. One lives in constant fear that they are not good enough, and that they must seek to fulfill Allah's will and be obedient to the extreme. Hense why muslims often seek martyrdom and are willing to die for their cause--they deem it as a sure way ticket to paradise.

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Yet if Islam does have any one serious problem, it is that it attempts to claim itself as exclusive and the only way, while at the same time it attempts to accept Christianity and Judism as faiths that also provide a way to heaven. It claims the God of the Jews and Christians is the same God as Allah. Yet we know by looking at the Bible and comparing the portrayal of God in both religions that there are some powerful fundamental contradictions. God in Christianity seeks to have an active relationship with man, Allah seeks that man submits to him. God has provided a means of grace and redemption that is not dependend on man's efforts, but on faith alone in Christ; Allah judges man based on his efforts and on his submission. Christianity holds Jesus as the Son of God, and that his death on the cross was to redeem man from sin, Islam holds Jesus as a prophet who died as a martyr, but not as a savior or as the Son of God. Christians believe in the Holy Spirit, Islam doesnt. Christianity also believes that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three different manifestations or beings of God, each individual and unique, yet all united as one (unibus pluribus deux, unity in the diversity of God, if I may say it) And there are other differences. So Islam flaws itself in its lack of exlusiveness and its failure to recognize the fundamental differences it has with Christianity, a religion it attempts to claim has the same God has it does.

This means that in its efforts to hold Christianity and Judism as equal religions, it either has to make exceptions to its own religion (and thus its ideology is suspect and questionable) or it must lie (though we say Christianity and Islam are mutually acceptable, we don't believe it). This also makes its ideology suspect. Why believe a religion that attempts to claim something that is demonstratably not so in its relation to other religions?

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I'll attempt to address Hindusism and Eastern Religions later... as other things demand my attention!

Edited September 13, 2005 by Pipit

[NITE OWL]

You guys must be really bored. You don't believe in God yet you spend a great deal of time on these boards. What does it matter to you what anyone believes. In your eyes there is no god, so what difference does it make?

My belief in God doesn't require physical proof. If you were as smart as you think you are, you would know that. But all you can ask is "where's your proof"?

Where's your proof that He doesn't exist?

Your questions expose your ignorance of the christian faith.

Trying to prove God exists or doesn't exist is a waste of time. I can't prove to you He does and you can't prove to me that He doesn't. So what's the point?

And you christians that get so wrapped up in these threads. Don't you understand that the goal of these people is to make you look stupid?

You throw out verse after verse, thinking to yourself "here's my proof, this proves the existance of God".

Scripture means nothing to an atheist. I can't believe you people don't understand that. For scripture to mean anything to an atheist, he would have to have some sort of belief that God exists. He doesn't, therefore scripture carries no weight in these debates.

Christ said "cast not your pearls...". Do you not know the meaning of that verse?

As far as all these other religions. Who cares? If someone wants to believe in something other then the God of Israel, let'em. That's their choice. In the end they will know the error of their ways.

Like I said, my beliefs are based on faith. I require no physical evidence.

Trying to prove or disprove the existance of God is like trying to hold a vapor in the palm of your hand.

[yomotalking]

What are you saying, Ian?

[yomotalking]

I am a bit confused.

are you on our, or The first poster's side.

Sorry.

I'm a bit dense tonight.

Been working hard!!!

LOL

[NITE OWL]

I am a bit confused.

are you on our, or The first poster's side.

Sorry.

I'm a bit dense tonight.

Been working hard!!!

LOL

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He's an atheist.

[Ovedya]

Well I would like it if you bore in mind the other religions have their own holy books; several of them predate the first testament by a millennium or more. In the interests of fairness, I won

[Ovedya]

Sorry, Logic does demand that Christ existed in the flesh for Christianity to exist.

The belief that someone existed does not require that person to have actually existed. Children believe that Santa exists, does this mean that he had to exist at some point?

For Christianity to be true, yes, Christ would have to be real. However, for the belief that Christianity is true, all you need is the belief that Christ is real.

Ian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Has anybody willingly died for Santa Claus? Has anybody given up a lifetime of riches and prominence for a myth?