When people say you're an old soul, what if it's true

[Amigo42]

43 minutes ago, JohnD said:

At the risk of eternity in hell?

No thanks!

Well, there are a lot of areas where Christians have learned traditions which are not necessarily Biblical.  The idea of an eternal place of suffering is one such idea.  At the time of Jesus, the Jews had been heavily influenced by hellenistic thought including thoughts on the afterlife.  Jesus spoke in parables and referred to concepts that the people at the time understood.  Gehenna or used symbolically to refer to hell was a trash dump outside Jerusalem where refuse was burned continuously.  It was a foul place that no one wanted to be near.  Jesus was not referring to a literal place of suffering for humans.  God is love and no loving God would punish his creation with endless torments for a short lifetime of sin.  There's no amount of sin a person could even commit that could warrant such a beyond extreme punishment.  God gave us all common sense, but sometimes religious doctrine and tradition can overwhelm the common sense that we already have.  Our common sense tells us that a God of love doesn't punish someone eternally for happening to be born as a human.  Being born as a human is like being in a football game where you're already down two touchdowns before you even hit the field.  That's part of the challenge of living this life in this frail human form that is disadvantaged from the onset.  God is just though and has pity on our human form.

[Amigo42]

10 minutes ago, Jayne said:

This bothers me. I'm sorry to say that.

Why did we not "exist already prior to our becoming human like Christ did"?  That is simple.  Christ is God.  We are not.  We are created things, like turnips.  Christ is the Creator.  To compare our existence with Christ's is not wise.

Yes, God said to Jeremiah - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Jeremiah was complaining and misunderstanding his youth and inexperience as an inability to serve God as a prophet.

God was telling him that Jeremiah was planned for and his life mapped out in the heart, mind, and pre-ordained plans of God before he was born.

NOT that Jeremiah was this immortal soul wandering from planet to planet looking for adventure and challenges.

If we existed as souls BEFORE Adam was created - 

• then why is Eve called the mother of all the living?
• how did "one man's sin" [Adam's] infest us all if we existed - albeit souls, spirits, or what-not BEFORE Adam?

The Bible says that God "foreknew" us and "foreloved" us. That he had and has plans for us from before we are born.

I mean NO insult, but unbiblical speculations like this are not wise.

 

I understand completely, and I respect your thoughts.  These kinds of ideas wouldn't have sat well with me either a few years ago.  I know hearing information that doesn't conform to what we are taught is a challenge.  This is coming from a born again Christian who has served God for over 20 years.  I started to have some questions pop up in different areas (not questions of doubt).  I love God and serve Jesus.  However, I fasted for weeks for more insight and understanding from God on some questions I had. I came to some conclusions below which only God knows whether they are true or not.  I don't know all the answers as none of us do.  So humility is required. 

It's my belief that God has shown that...

1. All souls return to him after death since he created all souls regardless of what their human state was.  This doesn't mean there won't be judgement and justice, but it also doesn't mean eternal suffering in hell

2.People of all faiths and backgrounds will return to heaven or home to God who created them.  Jesus died to show all of humanity the way to God not just Christians.

3.All humans have angels assigned to be with them during our stay on earth and to guide us back to God when we live

4.All religions are reaching out to God even if their beliefs are distorted.  God sees that all people of faith are trying to connect with the Creator.  

 

[Not me]

2 hours ago, branchesofHim said:

We are getting into the deep things of God indeed.

Be so very blessed in the deeper…. 
 

Unto Him, Not me 

[AnOrangeCat]

I share @Rick_Parker 's stance on this. God is outside of time as we understand it. I don't believe we meaningfully existed before our earthly lives. That would be like saying the existence of building plans = the existence of the house itself. Two other things bother me about the old souls notion as well.

One is that the Bible is clear that we have a sin nature, and it's so linked to our earthly bodies and its desires that it's referred to as the flesh. So many sins... sexual sins, greed, overindulgences, they're all things that are very much manifestations of our biological drives and survival instincts. When those instincts reach the point of becoming sin they're not reigned in with self control and used in the contexts God intended. It feels out of character for God in my view to keep us around for long periods in a state that's at least somewhat separate from a powerful source of our sinful natures and then dump it into a tainted vessel.

The last issue I have with it is this. The idea of old souls is often in the context of things like reincarnation, eastern religions in general, and new age beliefs. It's dangerous territory. Paul mentions eating food offered up to idols a time or two in the New Testament. His conclusion was this. They're just idols. They're powerless and there's no god but God, so it's okay to eat that food. The catch is that this liberty shouldn't be used in such a way that it causes our brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble. What I got was that Paul was concerned that weaker believers might see those more well versed in the faith getting that food and that it would be a bad influence on them. Without being sufficiently grounded in their walk with God these less spiritually mature believers might end up being swayed by the worship of those false gods. They might come to believe that there's something to those other religions. As much as this isn't about food and idols exactly the same underlying principle is there. Weaker believers in the modern era may well wonder "If X from a false religion is true maybe Y from that same religion is also true." Paul ended up saying he'd rather give up meat entirely if it would prevent a fellow believer from stumbling.

I'll conclude with this. The risk of causing others to stumble is present with such speculation. If there's an up side to these ponderings, what is it? Does it really do anything to help other believers?

[JohnD]

6 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

Well, there are a lot of areas where Christians have learned traditions which are not necessarily Biblical.  The idea of an eternal place of suffering is one such idea.  At the time of Jesus, the Jews had been heavily influenced by hellenistic thought including thoughts on the afterlife.  Jesus spoke in parables and referred to concepts that the people at the time understood.  Gehenna or used symbolically to refer to hell was a trash dump outside Jerusalem where refuse was burned continuously.  It was a foul place that no one wanted to be near.  Jesus was not referring to a literal place of suffering for humans.  God is love and no loving God would punish his creation with endless torments for a short lifetime of sin.  There's no amount of sin a person could even commit that could warrant such a beyond extreme punishment.  God gave us all common sense, but sometimes religious doctrine and tradition can overwhelm the common sense that we already have.  Our common sense tells us that a God of love doesn't punish someone eternally for happening to be born as a human.  Being born as a human is like being in a football game where you're already down two touchdowns before you even hit the field.  That's part of the challenge of living this life in this frail human form that is disadvantaged from the onset.  God is just though and has pity on our human form.

No this is higher biblical criticism / another humanist attempt to explain away what the Bible clearly teaches.

Hell is real and it is eternal (Mark 9:44-48). 

Salvation is not about condemning anyone. That job was taken care of by Adam and Eve (John 3:17-18).

If people with common sense could figure things out, Kaku and Tyson would answer the simple question

"what caused the Big Bang?"

Never mind being able to figure salvation out on their own (mankind, that is).

Es no mi amigo, lo siento.

[Amigo42]

On 5/1/2022 at 3:48 PM, AnOrangeCat said:

I share @Rick_Parker 's stance on this. God is outside of time as we understand it. I don't believe we meaningfully existed before our earthly lives. That would be like saying the existence of building plans = the existence of the house itself. Two other things bother me about the old souls notion as well.

One is that the Bible is clear that we have a sin nature, and it's so linked to our earthly bodies and its desires that it's referred to as the flesh. So many sins... sexual sins, greed, overindulgences, they're all things that are very much manifestations of our biological drives and survival instincts. When those instincts reach the point of becoming sin they're not reigned in with self control and used in the contexts God intended. It feels out of character for God in my view to keep us around for long periods in a state that's at least somewhat separate from a powerful source of our sinful natures and then dump it into a tainted vessel.

The last issue I have with it is this. The idea of old souls is often in the context of things like reincarnation, eastern religions in general, and new age beliefs. It's dangerous territory. Paul mentions eating food offered up to idols a time or two in the New Testament. His conclusion was this. They're just idols. They're powerless and there's no god but God, so it's okay to eat that food. The catch is that this liberty shouldn't be used in such a way that it causes our brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble. What I got was that Paul was concerned that weaker believers might see those more well versed in the faith getting that food and that it would be a bad influence on them. Without being sufficiently grounded in their walk with God these less spiritually mature believers might end up being swayed by the worship of those false gods. They might come to believe that there's something to those other religions. As much as this isn't about food and idols exactly the same underlying principle is there. Weaker believers in the modern era may well wonder "If X from a false religion is true maybe Y from that same religion is also true." Paul ended up saying he'd rather give up meat entirely if it would prevent a fellow believer from stumbling.

I'll conclude with this. The risk of causing others to stumble is present with such speculation. If there's an up side to these ponderings, what is it? Does it really do anything to help other believers?

 

I agree with you in general especially the last paragraph.  Very well said!  It's definitely not my intention to cause anyone to stumble.  However, in some cases it's better to hear things from a friendly mouth (Christian brother or sister) than to hear it from the world that desires to tear down truth.  In some cases, Christians are not very well served when they are taught to view the Bible too strictly literal because that can also cause people to stumble needlessly when they discover that there are some areas that are not literal that were taken literal for years.  Good points that you have made in truth.

[Amigo42]

On 5/1/2022 at 9:06 PM, JohnD said:

No this is higher biblical criticism / another humanist attempt to explain away what the Bible clearly teaches.

Hell is real and it is eternal (Mark 9:44-48). 

 

 

Are you sure that's clear?  Jeremiah 17:27 states "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

 

However, the gates of Jerusalem are no longer "literally" burning.  Some people may since that the gates are symbolic still burning  due to the constant conflict in the Holy Land, but this verse is speaking of literal fire that was in fact eventually quenched.  Hence, the dangers of strictly literal interpretations of the Bible.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Amigo42
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[AnOrangeCat]

4 hours ago, Amigo42 said:

 

I agree with you in general especially the last paragraph.  Very well said!  It's definitely not my intention to cause anyone to stumble.  However, in some cases it's better to hear things from a friendly mouth (Christian brother or sister) than to hear it from the world that desires to tear down truth.  In some cases, Christians are not very well served when they are taught to view the Bible too strictly literal because that can also cause people to stumble needlessly when they discover that there are some areas that are not literal that were taken literal for years.  Good points that you have made in truth.

Thanks for being this way. You've been really polite with everyone despite the general sentiment to the question. That's a good mark in my book. Much respect.

[TreeFivew]

You can’t reincarnate, so souls can’t be old.

Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

 

[Marathoner]

18 minutes ago, TreeFivew said:

You can’t reincarnate, so souls can’t be old.

Hebrews 9:27

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

 

Indeed. I think @AnOrangeCat did a fine job of expressing the responsibility we have toward brethren who are new to the faith or, for one reason or another, are fragile in their walk with the Lord. This is not intended as a condescending descriptive because there was a time when all of us were new to the faith, and we were even fragile in a way.

I certainly was. But this is my confidence in the Lord who claimed me, and who is faithful to discipline me as son, that being in His hand all things work together for our good. There were trying times and I was alone, so it seemed like I was left to my own devices. I wasn't.

That is how I learned those lessons of His discipline, to suffer and believe there was no hope when all along, the Lord remained silent because it was good for me to remain ignorant of hidden things known only to Him. 

If there is such a thing as an "old soul," then it describes someone who has endured much during their time in this world. There is no such thing as reincarnation which is nothing but a corruption of the resurrection. That's what we'll find afloat in the strangeness of alien religions: a corrupted warping of the truth. But the young may be vulnerable to such things.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Marathoner
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