The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance

[not an echo]

Hello all,

Another help in our study of the difference between Christ's Sign Appearance and His Second Advent is to understand that both are referred to in Scripture as His coming.  In other words, whether His coming is to make a sign appearance and for the resurrection and the rapture of the Church, or His coming is for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign, both of these events involve His coming.  As often expressed, first of all, Christ is coming for His Church, and then later, He will be coming with His Church.  Because both of these events involve His coming, I have sometimes encountered a little difficulty explaining the differences in the two, especially when any mention of His coming is seen only as His Second Coming, or Second Advent.  For this reason, I have begun more and more to speak of His Second Coming as being the event of His Second Advent and of His coming for the resurrection and the rapture of the Church as being the event of His Sign Appearance.

When it comes to Scripture references concerning Christ's coming, the above is important to remain mindful of.  There are times when the event of Christ's Sign Appearance is in view and there are times when His Second Advent is in view.  I can also see cases where that both seem to be in view, which should not be too surprising, especially looking forward from a distance---like from a first century perspective.  I think of a binary star, which, with the naked eye, looks like one star, but magnified through a telescope, is seen to be two stars.

For me, a simple help in better understanding the fullness of what a Bible reference may mean concerning Christ's coming is the following.  Consider for a moment if we think in these terms:

A = Christ's Sign Appearance

B = Christ's Second Advent

AB = both.

This would mean that a Bible reference may be in the category of A (meaning Christ's Sign Appearance), or B (meaning Christ's Second Advent), or AB (meaning both).  Concerning a reference that may be seen as an AB, it may not even be possible to differentiate, as there is an aspect of Christ's coming, or return, that is appropriately seen in a general sense, or as a whole, if you will.

Of course, being able to differentiate between an A reference or a B reference involves looking closely at the context in which a reference is found.  Looking again at what I have referred to in this thread as "our focal passage" (Matt. 24:29-31), this is where Jesus actually makes the statement, "And then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (vs. 30).  Connected with the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven",  Jesus continues, "AND THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (vs. 30).  Both context and other evidence supports that the whole of verse 30 is an A reference.  And, as I have pointed out before, we can know that Christ's Sign Appearance will be powerful and glorious, as the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen with "power and great glory"!  Before continuing---and for the purpose of re-clarifying---my position is that Christ's Sign Appearance is what the people see with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16), and will be on the order of a glimpse, because of the "twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:52) element of the rapture.  Also, it is at this time that the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (cp. Matt. 24:30 with Rev. 7:4) will be sealed and that the Church will be gathered (cp. Matt. 24:31 with Rev. 7:9-10).  Of the Church when it is gathered, it will be able to be truthfully said, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14).

Looking at a few other references, because the Matthew 24:29-31 reference in Jesus' Olivet Discourse parallels the Mark 13:24-27 and the Luke 21:25-28 references, these are all in the category of A references.  These are all prophetic puzzle pieces that interlock with the opening of the 6th Seal.  The same is true of I Thessalonians 4:15-18, which too would be an A reference.  And John 14:1-3.  Or I John 2:28.  Or Matthew 25:13.

It is not hard to see that some references would go into the category of B alone.  Like this one, from II Thessalonians 2...

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

I would also have Jude 14-15 and Revelation 1:7 as B references.  And, Matthew 24:26-28, which concerns Revelation 19:11-21.  I believe all of us have these as B references.

Finally (for now), some references concern Jesus' coming in a more general sense, but should make everyone think---just the same.  Like Jesus' words from Luke 18...

6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.

7 And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them?

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

The sign of the son of man in heaven takes place at the sixth seal near the end of the 7 years.

 

 

 

The 45 days is the time that the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and to take half of Jerusalem as hostages (Zechariah 14:2) in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing Judgement on them.

Regarding the sixth seal event, visualize if you can...

... the beast and the false prophet standing on the temple mount in the evening, as another group of martyers are slain.

Then they notice the sun begins to darkened, and as a result the moon does not reflect the light of the sun. When the sun has completely darkened black as sackcloth made from hair, the moon becomes as blood, i.e. turns a dark red, sagging like blood over its surface.

Then the heavens part, and the stars move aside, and appear to fall to the earth as they disappear over the horizon.

And then the world sees Jesus before the throne of God sickle in hand (from Revelation 14). What do you think the evil men of the world are going to think at that time? What is the message they will be getting?
 

  

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by douggg

[not an echo]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

The sign of the son of man in heaven takes place at the sixth seal near the end of the 7 years.

 

 

 

The 45 days is the time that the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus and to take half of Jerusalem as hostages (Zechariah 14:2) in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing Judgement on them.

Regarding the sixth seal event, visualize if you can...

... the beast and the false prophet standing on the temple mount in the evening, as another group of martyers are slain.

Then they notice the sun begins to darkened, and as a result the moon does not reflect the light of the sun. When the sun has completely darkened black as sackcloth made from hair, the moon becomes as blood, i.e. turns a dark red, sagging like blood over its surface.

Then the heavens part, and the stars move aside, and appear to fall to the earth as they disappear over the horizon.

And then the world sees Jesus before the throne of God sickle in hand (from Revelation 14). What do you think the evil men of the world are going to think at that time? What is the message they will be getting?
 

  

Hello douggg,

I'm glad to see your acknowledgment that "The sign of the son of man in heaven takes place at the sixth seal" and that you at least show a significant amount of time transpiring between this and Christ's Second Advent.  However, evidence of the beginning of the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week does not show up until Revelation 11:1-3.

Of course, the time frame of Daniel's 70th Week as it is seen in The Revelation deserves a thread all it's own, and I am not interested in this thread becoming sidetracked on that subject.  But, because I did recently work up a post that relates to this, I thought I would at least copy & paste it here for your consideration.  I hope it is found to be of some help to you in your own understanding.  So, with the following, I am now going...

First of all, it was in my thread titled, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? that I was asked by another member, "Why do you believe there must be a 'gap' of time between the 69th and the 70th Weeks?"  I replied thus...

"Concerning your question, a help in understanding Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy is to understand that this prophecy (Dan. 9:24-27) is the hub around which all of Daniel's prophecies revolve.  I am not seeing this expressed by anyone, but I would like to encourage you (and all) to study Daniel with this in mind.

Kinda concisely, and from a bird's-eye view, the end result of the "seventy weeks" (as we know, "weeks" means "sevened" in Hebrew/H7620) will be what is expressed in the opening verse of the prophecy (Dan. 9:24).  The fullness of this will be realized during Christ's Millennial Reign, which begins just after the fulfillment of the last week with Christ's Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon.

Key to the seventy weeks prophecy was the "going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:25).  King Artaxerxes' commissioning of Nehemiah to rebuild the walls and city of Jerusalem (Neh. 2:1-8) best fits this criteria.  This happened approximately 445 B.C.  The prophecy reads that "from the going forth" of this commandment, "unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (Dan. 9:25)---or 69 of the weeks (sevens).  Basically, when the 69 weeks are converted to years and these are adjusted to factor in the early 360 day Jewish calendar versus our modern 365.25 day calendar, the result coincides with the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, and there are evidences that the fulfillment of this prophecy is even more precise than this.

Interestingly, it is "after" the "threescore and two weeks" element of the aforementioned 69 weeks that it is said that the "Messiah" will be "cut off" (Dan. 9:26).  With the crucifixion of Christ, the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy finds its fulfillment.

This brings us to the remaining week (or seven).  The "prince that shall come" (Dan. 9:26) is the "he" that "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:  and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (Dan. 9:27).  This is not something that Jesus Christ did after He was "cut off", which travesty marked the completion, or fulfilling of the first 69 weeks.  Rather, what is said of the "he" points to the Antichrist (aka, the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" or A of D).

There are many last days and end times markers connected with Daniel's prophecies (e.g., 2:28;  7:9-11;  8:17, 19, 23, 26;  10:14;  11:35, 40).  Moreover, of what was revealed to him, Daniel was told in chapter 12...

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

A little further, Daniel continues thus...

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed TILL THE TIME OF THE END.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Well, we know that "the end" has not yet come, and there is yet one week (or seven) of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy remaining to be fulfilled.  Now, this is where it starts getting good.  In Revelation 10 we find this...

1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

This "little book" that is at this time seen "open" is the little book of Daniel.  While this is shown by what we read above (Dan. 12:4, 8-10) and by what is said in Revelation 10:7, it is established in the opening three verses of Revelation 11, which read...

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (3-1/2 years).

3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3-1/2 years), clothed in sackcloth.

Unsurprisingly, here we have the first mention of two 3-1/2 year time periods.  Equally important---and for too long missed---is what we find in verse one.  Just because the "Temple of God" is here seen and "worship" is going on, it should not be supposed that it is Almighty God who is being worshiped.  Consider afresh Paul's words in II Thessalonians 2...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Christ's Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jesus also spoke to this in Matthew 24...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Concerning the two 3-1/2 year periods of time first mentioned in Revelation 11:2-3, it is elementary to see that the 3-1/2 year period mentioned in verse three concerns the "two witnesses" and the time of their activity, which continues through verse 14 and corresponds with the first half of Daniel's 70th Week.  Moreover, as shown in verses 14-15, this 3-1/2 year period will be fulfilled just before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet...  

14 The second woe IS PAST; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, we have an overview of the period that is heralded by this trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), which is expounded in chapters 12-20.  Again, unsurprisingly, we then begin to see mentions of the other 3-1/2 year period (12:6, 14;  13:5), which corresponds with the last half of Daniel's 70th Week.

There is a very interesting structure to The Revelation that begins to manifest itself when all of this is understood---a structure that bespeaks the hand of God at work even in the verse and chapter divisions of The Revelation.  What do I mean?  The first 10 chapters of The Revelation are in such a strict chronological order that it is not even within the realm of possibility for them to be more chronological.  They bring us to the time of the little book of Daniel being seen "open" (chp. 10), as the world's stage is at this time reset for the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  Beginning with chapter 11 and continuing through chapter 20, there is still a strictness to the chronological order of The Revelation, but with a consistent overlap of information---without fail.  These second 10 chapters concern Daniel's 70th Week, the capstone of which is Christ's Second Advent (chp. 19) and Millennial Reign (chp. 20), this latter making for the ultimate fulfillment of what the "Seventy weeks" were "determined" for, namely, "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy" (Dan. 9:24).  For some helpful illustrations and more on the chronological order of The Revelation, see the opening post (or any post of mine) in my thread titled, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

So much more can be said.  For now, for here, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that will not end until after the Last Judgment, which comes after Christ's Millennial Reign (Rev. 20).  Then will begin that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His saved.  On the other hand, the "Trump of God" is the "great sound of a trumpet" that will be sounded to assemble those who are saved at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book.  This trumpet should not be confused with the 7th Trumpet, which will not be sounded until the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week.  The day the 6th Seal is opened, the stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week will begin.  As the NT Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will not be a part of the fulfilling of the 70th Week.  Also, evidences support that as what is in our Western Hemisphere did not factor in in the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, it will not factor in in the 70th Week.  This supports that, at the appointed time, God is going to do something staggering to effect the bringing of the world's focus once again to bear upon the lands of the Bible days for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week---as with the other 69 weeks.  This is what I mean by the stage reset.  I don't know if you ever saw the opening post of my first thread on this forum, but I hope you will consider it.  I titled it, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  The possibility of what these trumpets concern has not ceased to engage me since the possibility dawned on me.  Continuing, the sounding of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:1-11) and the "five months" spoken of during this period will allow for some stabilization upon the earth from the preceding cataclysms.  This time will also facilitate the rise of the Antichrist to power---before the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.  The sounding of the 6th Trumpet and the part of this period (Rev. 9:12-21) that precedes the little book of Daniel being seen "open" concerns the final elements of the stage reset, with a focus upon taking the Far East out of the picture---again, so that the focus is brought to bear more fully upon the lands of the Bible days for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  I really need to be going for now.  For a more complete picture of how all the prophetic puzzles pieces fit together, I would encourage you to look at the opening three posts of my thread titled, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  There it can be seen how the various elements of the last days come together in support of my position."

[douggg]

The third woe (as announced by the 7th trumpet) is the time/times/half time that

Satan will have left after being cast down to earth from the 2nd heaven (the cosmos),

that woe noted in Revelation 12:12.

 

Anytime rapture view - anytime between now and the ToD act - could be pre-70th week (the pre-trib view).    Or maybe not.    But before the ToD act.

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by douggg

[douggg]

one liner sequence of events:

 

Pre-70th week:
1. little horn becomes leader of a ten leader european coalition.
2. Gog/Magog takes place and Gog's army destroyed
3. the little horn moves his EU army into the middle east as peace keepers.
4. little horn is anointed the king of Israel messiah, making him the Antichrist.

70th week:
1. confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant, day 1, 70th week.
2. a false messianic age
3. the transgression of desolation act
4. antichrist killed and brought back to life to become the beast
5. the abomination of desolation set up
6. the great tribulation and tribulation of those days
7. the sign of the Son of man in heaven
8. armies gather at Armageddon 45 days to make war on Jesus
9. Jesus returns, and destroys those armies.

Edited September 11, 2022 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 9/11/2022 at 2:09 AM, douggg said:

7. the sign of the Son of man in heaven

Hello douggg,

Concerning your three posts as a whole and remaining mindful of the subject of this thread, I'm wondering if you see the three verses of Matthew 24:29-31 as being fulfilled at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal (which is my position).

Edited February 4, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

On 9/26/2022 at 9:50 PM, not an echo said:

Hello douggg,

Concerning your three posts as a whole, and remaining mindful of the subject of this thread, I'm wondering if you see the three verses of Matthew 24:29-31 as being fulfilled at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal (which is my position).

Matthew 24:29, I think is the sixth seal event.     Then in the next verse Matthew 24:30 are two actions...

(1) the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - which I think is the climax of the seal seal event.

(2) Then, Jesus coming in power and great glory - which I think happens 45 days after the sixth seal event.      During the 45 days, the kings of the earth assemble their armies to make war on Jesus.

Matthew 24:31, I think the gathering of the elect is the gathering of every single last one of the house of Israel remaining in the nations back to the land of Israel.     This is based on a promise made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by douggg

[Uriah]

On 9/10/2022 at 5:46 PM, not an echo said:

my position is that Christ's Sign Appearance is what the people see with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16), and will be on the order of a glimpse

Let's look at that, all of it. You left the first three verses out.

Rev 6:12-And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13-And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14-And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

These above show the context of the two you posted

Rev 6:15-And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16-And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (ya left this one out too)

These things happen at the END! The make the picture of the fulfillment of the verses below. Old sky torn away, geologic transformation concurrently!

Isa 65:17-For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1-And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

 

 

The old sky rolls up like a scroll rolling up to reveal THE SIGN...

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Uriah
pics, add word "verses"

[not an echo]

On 10/15/2022 at 10:58 PM, douggg said:

On 9/26/2022 at 9:50 PM, not an echo said:

Hello douggg,

Concerning your three posts as a whole, and remaining mindful of the subject of this thread, I'm wondering if you see the three verses of Matthew 24:29-31 as being fulfilled at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal (which is my position).

Matthew 24:29, I think is the sixth seal event.     Then in the next verse Matthew 24:30 are two actions...

(1) the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - which I think is the climax of the seal seal event.

(2) Then, Jesus coming in power and great glory - which I think happens 45 days after the sixth seal event.      During the 45 days, the kings of the earth assemble their armies to make war on Jesus.

Matthew 24:31, I think the gathering of the elect is the gathering of every single last one of the house of Israel remaining in the nations back to the land of Israel.     This is based on a promise made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Hello douggg,

Concerning your first sentence, I am in agreement that Matthew 24:29 is of the 6th Seal event, but my position is that verses 30-31 are as well.  Also, I would certainly agree with your (1), that "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" will be "the climax" of the 6th Seal event!   But, I don't see the support in Scripture for your (2), especially the way you have "Jesus coming in power and great glory...45 days after the sixth seal event."  It is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" that Jesus is here saying will be "with power and great glory" (vs. 30), when He comes at the opening of the 6th Seal for the sealing of the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 7:4) and the gathering of the Church (Matt. 24:31/Rev. 7:9).  The next time Jesus is seen, whether it be at the time of His Sign Appearance (Rev. 6:15-16) or the time of His Second Advent (Rev. 19:11-16), He will be seen with power and great glory!

Looking further at your "45 days after the sixth seal event",  there is a "five month" (150 days) period of time mentioned during the time of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:5, 10).  It is at least this much time before we have the first mention of the two 3-1/2 year periods of time that make up Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3).  How do you separate the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" from Christ's Second Advent by less than the "five months" and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week, as shown in The Revelation?  Also, if I am understanding your charts correctly, you have the 7th Trumpet being sounded before the 6th Seal is opened.  On one of your recent charts (shown elsewhere), it looks like you even have the 7th Seal being opened before the 6th Seal is opened.

Finally, concerning your last paragraph and Matthew 24:31, while the dispersed Israelites will indeed be gathered back to the land of Israel, Scripture does not indicate that this will be carried out by the angels.  Consider from Isaiah 11...

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Now, note three verses later concerning some particulars of how this will be accomplished...

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with His mighty wind shall He shake His hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

In Isaiah 35 we find similar...

8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

From Isaiah 49 consider...

22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for Me.

Consider now from Jeremiah 23...

5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is His name whereby He shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

There are many Old Testament scriptures that speak of the Israelites future return to their homeland, as they migrate there under the supervision of the Lord during the time of His Millennial Reign (e.g., Isa. 43:5-7;  51:11;  Ezek. 20:40-44;  34:11-16;  Hos. 3:4-5;  Zech. 8:3-8).

On the other hand, it is the Church that shall be "caught up" and gathered by the angels at the time commonly referred to as the rapture (Matt. 24:31 with vss. 40-44;  Jn. 14:1-3;  I Cor. 15:51-52 with I Thess. 4:16-5:3 and II Thess. 2:1).

[not an echo]

On 10/20/2022 at 8:20 AM, Uriah said:

On 9/10/2022 at 4:46 PM, not an echo said:

my position is that Christ's Sign Appearance is what the people see with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16), and will be on the order of a glimpse

Let's look at that, all of it. You left the first three verses out.

Rev 6:12-And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13-And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14-And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

These above show the context of the two you posted

Rev 6:15-And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16-And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17- For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (ya left this one out too)

These things happen at the END! The make the picture of the fulfillment of the verses below. Old sky torn away, geologic transformation concurrently!

Isa 65:17-For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1-And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Hello Uriah,

You show Revelation 6:12-17 as supporting your position that "These things happen at the END!"  Then you tie this in with your last two references.  Is it your position that this will happen after Christ's Millennial Reign, in conjunction with the event of the Last Judgment?  Note from Revelation 20...

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face THE EARTH AND THE HEAVEN FLED AWAY; and there was found no place for them.