Your closest friendnt Posted July 23, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,884 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,772 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, truth7t7 said: Those that came out of the Graves at the death of Jesus on Calvary were "Raised From The Dead" just as Lazarus and Tabitha were. There is a lot to be spoken about in the above statement. Tabitha is mention, a believer in Jesus Christ in The book of Acts chapter 9:36-43 . In this narrative the Apostle Peter was called to pray for Tabitha a believer in Jesus Christ who had just died. We can say who had just died because her lifeless body was still lying in bed... Peter was called and when he prayed Tabitha came back to life...and Peter helped her out of the bed and he presented her to her friends. In this narrative we need to be careful with our thinking and the words we use to described what happened...because this even took place a few years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead... This is the reason why we need to be very careful...we know that when Jesus Christ died he went or descend to the place of the dead... The scripture it does not limit to where exactly Jesus went, but knowing that Jesus Christ died for all, he must have gone to all who had died before him, and not only to Abraham and those who were with him. We cannot say or imply that's where Tabitha went after her death, being a believer in Jesus Christ...she died as a believer in Jesus Christ. She died to Jesus Christ, being under his blood and in his righteousness and in his Life and of his spirit..being one with him and one with the Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ. She would die as a co-heir of Heaven together with Jesus Christ. Isaac and Jacob and the children of Jacob the Israelites were gathered to Abraham after they died, in the place God had appointed for them and that was not Heaven... Jesus at the time of his death had to descend to go to them who were waiting in a place separated from the dead of the world... Just building up the frame. The descendants of Abraham were gathered to Abraham and the descendants of the rest of the world were Gather to their appropriate place not mixed with Abraham and his descendants. This is before Jesus Christ death because with his resurrection things did not remained the same, everything has change and we have something New... This is where we are at, in our quest to find out what has changed and how it has changed. If Tabitha had died as a Jew before the resurrection of Jesus she would have been gathered to her Patriarch Abraham...from Jacob-Israel to Issac to Abraham... She would be gathered to be with her Patriarch Abraham... After her death if it had happened to died before the resurrection of Jesus Christ, she would be found to be in the Bossom of Abraham...where her Patriarch was their we would have found her, if she would have died as a Jew (as in our example, only in our example, because in real life she died as a believer to Jesus Christ, she died joint to Jesus Christ and not to Abraham.) and not before but after the resurrection of Jesus Christ... Before the resurrection of Jesus Christ the offspring of Abraham gathered to Abraham to where he was... But after the death of Jesus and before his resurrection Abraham joint Jesus together with all those who were with him including John the Baptist who died before Jesus and had to go ahead to wherever Jesus had to go at the time of his death to Abraham to proclaim his coming, the coming of the Messiah, the Christ of God to where Abraham was waiting for him together with his children.... Abraham knew this day was coming and he rejoiced. Jesus Christ gave Life to them first, from his Life and they were joint to Jesus because they were one with him, in his blood and in his Life and in his Spirit...and they were not separated from him at the time Jesus was raised from the dead.... No one was raised from the dead at the time of Jesus Christ death, no one, Jesus Christ must be the first, the first fruit, and those who believe in him when Jesus preached the Gospel to those who had died before him, to all who had died before him, were also raised with him from the dead together with Jesus, Jesus and all of them the First Fruits... **** When Jesus died on the Cross a deep darkness fall upon the earth...a deep darkness that had never had happened before. This is as if the Light of the world left the earth for the first time. And that's what just happened, Jesus the Light or the world left the earth for the first and only time when he descended in the heart of the earth... And this darkness lasted for three hours, which is symbolic for the three days before Jesus was raised from the dead, also symbolized that Jesus is coming back after three days, the time of his resurrection... At the same time it was a great earthquick and the rocks were split asunder and the monuments of the dead in the cemeteries were shaken up and moved and were destroyed... And the people who witness or God let them witness or he open their eyes to see some of the people who had raised from the dead and in their own mind they connected the earthquake and the disturbance of the grave stones that happened at the death of Jesus with what took place at the resurrection of Jesus Christ.... In the cemetery is not where the people died in their burial place, this is only their burial place, they died in some other place...we can see how the people thought and what they believed within their culture...which Jesus Christ did not endorse....that's enough for now.... Edited July 24, 2022 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted July 23, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 23, 2022 (edited) Deleted Edited July 23, 2022 by truth7t7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 24, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2022 23 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: @Sister The riders on the white horses with clothed in white raiment are those who are in the service of Jesus Christ, like his disciples and all the other disciples and the evangelist through out the times and the generations who are in the army of Jesus Christ and are helping Jesus Christ to bring the Gospel through out the world....and are having to meet and fight with a lot of people who oppose the Gospel.... Angels help the believers and are on their own missions, but to preach the good news of the Gospel is given to believers through out their generations....it is a now situation and it has always be.... Jesus needs us now...he is calling us now...to ride our white horse and follow him to where he leads us... To us he promised to be overcomers and be worthy to be clothed in white raiment...and further be worthy to be called into calvary, giving us our own white horse...in his mission field. Your closest friendt The angels of heaven are also clothed in pure and white linen. Here is an example; Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. All the angels of heaven are faithful to the Lord God, and serve in that light, for there is no darkness in them, which is why they are clothed in pure and white linen. We also who serve in that light will be given white robes, but not yet, until Christ comes in the clouds with all his armies, which are the angels, in the glory of the Father who made heaven and earth, and who's word cannot be broken but is true comes for us. We were told in Matthew 16:27 that when Christ returns, he will come with the angels of heaven, and if we missed that - it's repeated again in Mat 25:31, ...we were also told in Mark 8:38, and if we missed that we were told in Luke 9:26. Told four times, but not once told that Christ will descend from heaven with his saints. Enoch prophesied that Christ will come with ten thousand of his saints, and if you are on the ground, that is what you will see 'after' the gathering. The gathering is in 'the air', not in heaven, but in the air on the clouds, at that level, in the earth. The gathering does not happen in heaven, but in the earth after Christ comes out of heaven with all his angels prepared for war, and prepared to collect the saints to give them their reward. So far not one person has said this is truth. Not my words also, but it is written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 24, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2022 23 hours ago, DeighAnn said: Jesus became the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. God knows the end in the beginning. He's making a statement. God is all knowing and in his realm of time it's already happened. Quote The ONLY ones sleeping at the time were those who were ALREADY in the graves. Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. So from these three scriptures you have it all figured out? Who were these that were raised? Were they OT saints, or NT saints? Were they raised to immortality, or were they raised in their flesh? Did they die again? And what is this holy city where they appeared unto many? Who were the many they appeared unto? Was Jerusalem the holy city back then? Were all the saints buried in Jerusalem only? Who was persecuted for Christ's sake before his death besides John the Baptist? Why would these be 'the firstfruits' of Christ when the apostles who were chosen hadn't even started their ministry? Were these greater than the apostles, the 12 foundations who were to be our teachers and examples on what it takes to qualify for the resurrection? I have so many questions? I hope you can answer. So I will preach on what I do know, and what is clear because it is written for a witness that the resurrection is on the 7th trump, at the Coming, when all 'in Christ' will be gathered together to receive their change, and even the apostles were waiting for this day, knowing they would die first, and when they awake, they would forever be with the Lord. I also can prove plain and clear that Christ is coming out of heaven with his angels to give reward unto his saints, and he is not coming out of heaven with his saints because they who were created out of dust had returned to dust, and that's all they are... DUST, and dead bones until their change. And that is what I wanted to show you, that your precepts need to be revised so that they can harmonise with the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted July 24, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 1) Are you saying this is a resurrection or this isn't a resurrection? This is a resurrection but it was not a resurrection unto immortal bodies...they were raised and went into Jerusalem and died again...they were raised and then died again just as Lazarus and Tabitha ...no man hath immortality..only Jesus has immortality and then they that belong to Christ are resurrected and given immortality, in other words they are changed AT HIS COMING...This is when the Last Trumpet sounds...it did not sound when the saints were raised and went into Jerusalem...remember the scripture states WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...ALL does not mean PART, ALL MEANS ALL. The OT saints belong to Christ just as the New Testament saints belong to Christ...The scripture did not say 'Christ and some of the saints are the first fruits..it says CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS...and afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.... On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 2) Are you saying this did not take place at the end of the OLD COVENANT or it did take place at the end of the OLD COVENANT It wouldn't matter if it was the last day of the old Testament or not...the scripture does not say PART will be changed on the last day of the Old Testament...and PART will be changed on the last day of this age....those included in the last day resurrection are ALL those that believe...they are ALL those that God gave to Christ...there is absolutely no mention anywhere of a last day of the old testament resurrection of the Old Testament saints...your position makes what Paul said a lie...He said ALL WOULD BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...the last trump did not sound at that time...so if ALL are changed at the last trump there can be no others who were already changed. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 3) Did the resurrection of the dead that were sleeping come by Christ or WILL the resurrection of the dead come by Christ? Like I said, there was a resurrection but it was not unto immortality, for they died again...the resurrection unto immortality is something that has not come yet and will happen in the future at the Second Coming of Christ at the last trump... On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. Luke 20:39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said. 4) What does 'now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed..? He is addressing the question of the resurrection of the dead...not that the dead had already been raised...it wouldn't make sense at all to think 'now' as meaning right then...for he had not even died at this point and those that were raised and went into Jerusalem did so AFTER his resurrection so it couldn't have been 'now' meaning right then... Other translations make this clearer in that he is using the word 'now' meaning he is now addressing the issue of the resurrection of the dead...as in these translations: NASB 20- “But as for the fact that the dead are raised, even Moses revealed this in the passage about the burning bush, NLT - “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—even Moses proved this when he wrote about the burning bush. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 5) If the dead were raised BEFORE Christ, would that be a resurrection or would that not be a resurrection? They were not raised before Christ...Jesus did not say the dead had already raised by saying 'now'...there was no resurrection of anyone to immortality as it plainly states CHRIST WAS THE FIRST THAT SHOULD RISE...no one was raised to immortality before he was...this is absolutely a false premise... On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 6) If God is the God of the living and NOT the dead, and is the God of Abraham, how can Abraham be dead awaiting to be resurrected out from the dead and God be his God? They are sleeping the dust of the earth...no one awakes until the heaven be no more...as Job said: Quote So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. It specifically states THEY...(the dead, both righteous and wicked) will not awake or be raised out of their sleep until the heavens be no more...the heavens are rolled back as a scroll at the 6th seal...not when Jesus died.. there is no resurrection until THY WRATH IS PASSED.. his wrath is passed immediately after the tribulation of those days...not when Jesus died 2000 years ago. Job is WAITING....just like all the other saints, whether old or new testament until God's wrath is passed and the heavens be no more...this did not happen at the crucifixion of Christ...you are continuing to separate death from sleeping...this is your leverage ..you say they can't be living and still be dead...well sleeping is called death and when you sleep you are not dead...Jesus used both of these words to describe the same condition...you can be sleeping in Jesus and be yet dead because your spirit has departed from your body. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 7) When Enoch and Elijah 'walked' with God, were they raised up/resurrected to heaven? If not, what would their 'going to be with God' be called? Neither Enoch, not Elijah have immortal bodies as Jesus said 'No man hath ascended up to heaven except the Son of Man...' You can't have Jesus be the FIRST TO RISE and also have Enoch and Elijah to be raised to immortality BEFORE HIM...If they were before him then Jesus was not the First that should rise...he is called the first begotten of the dead...the scripture stating 'this day have I begotten thee,' is directly referring to his resurrection...Christ can not be first fruits and yet have Enoch and Elijah raised before him. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 8) When Jesus said to Peter, you will FOLLOW after, did He really mean you will resurrect when I return? If yes, then why the words 'FOLLOW and you know the way' be used instead of 'wait until I return'? Yes, he specifically said 'you CANNOT follow me now, but you will follow me hereafter... and yes, the phrase 'you will follow me afterwards' means he would follow him at the resurrection...this is when the dead in Christ will rise...this is when they will ascend up to heaven like Jesus did...Jesus went first and then 'those that belong to Christ will be resurrected AT HIS COMING.' Just because Jesus did not specifically say 'afterwards' means at the Second coming, does not mean 'afterwards' means something contrary to what was revealed by Paul...God did not inspire him to write 'All shall be changed at the last trump' if he knew all the Old Testament saints had already been changed when the saints went into Jerusalem...it would defy what both Paul and Jesus and John have said in order to make your theory work. His servants the prophets are rewarded at the 7th trump...the 7th trump has not yet sounded...the saints are rewarded at the 7th trump...the 7th trump has not yet sounded...all those that fear his name both small and great will be rewarded at the 7th trumpet...the 7th trumpet has not yet sounded. Quote Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. Quote If yes, then why the words 'FOLLOW and you know the way' be used instead of 'wait until I return'? The word 'follow' is not in the text you are quoting from...it is a different setting in John 14 which is talking about Jesus returning in spirit to the believers after his resurrection, not about the second coming. Jesus was with them and he said he would be in them, and at that day they would know that he was in them and they were in him....'That day' is not referring to the second coming, for we don't have to wait until the second coming to know God dwells in us...they knew it when the Holy Ghost was poured out upon them on the Day of Pentecost. Quote And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? The 'coming again' in the above text is not the second coming...but rather when he came on the day of pentecost...he said I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you...He then says 'at that day you shall know that I am in the father and you in me and I in you: Quote I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (not the second coming) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day (not the second coming) ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: If yes, then why the words 'FOLLOW and you know the way' be used instead of 'wait until I return'? The thought of being rewarded when he returns is stated in Matthew 25:14: Quote For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. In the above text he delivers to them his goods...and then takes his journey into a far country... Then after a long time he returns and rewards them: Quote After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. It was not based on when the servants died, but rather when he returned.... On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 9) Why did Jesus say I go to prepare a place for you that you may be where I am? If we were going to raise up at the last day ANYHOW why did Jesus pray we would be with Him? The setting in John 14 is about the Holy Spirit coming, not the second coming...this is the same error pre trib is using to justify a resurrection before the last day...it can not conflict with what Paul, Jesus and John are saying...if they go up to heaven before the last day, there has to be a resurrection before the last day because the dead in Christ have to rise first. In order for them to rise to heaven they have to be first resurrected..all that believe are resurrected on the last day...there is no resurrection for anyone before the last day if all are resurrected on the last day...there are not two last days...this is total conjecture on your part to make it appear Jesus is talking about two different times in John 6..there are not two different times for two different people in John 6...this is a desperate leap to insert another resurrection where there is none...this is the same thing pre trib does...pre trib will state the resurrection in 1 Thess. 4 is before the last day...it is ignored that Jesus said all that believe will be raised on the last day...it is claimed this only pertains to the Jews....this is another desperate attempt to insert another resurrection...John 6 is obviously not only talking about believing Jews...this is a total sleight of hand...God did not just give believing Jews to Christ...All the saints, whether Jew or Gentile were given to Christ...this matters not to pre trib...pre trib continues to ignore what Jesus said just as you are doing. Quote If we were going to raise up at the last day ANYHOW why did Jesus pray we would be with Him? See how it is phrased...'if I go away, I will come again and receive you unto myself...' Yes, he went away, and when he came again on the Day of Pentecost in spirit form where is he now? He is now IN THEM...where are THEY? THEY are the believers and Jesus is now IN THEM, but the believers gathered in the upper room were not in heaven were they? NO...they were on the earth. And now Jesus is dwelling IN THEM...'That WHERE I AM ye may be also...' This was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost...they did not go up to heaven to be with him...he came down from heaven to be in them. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 10) Paul wrote Jesus died and rose, EVEN SO THEM. What does that mean? This is another stretch to insert an additional resurrection. An additional resurrection is not being taught here, but rather he is saying just like Jesus died and rose again so will those that are sleeping in Jesus be resurrected... Quote For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 'Even so' does not mean an additional resurrection, but rather, in like manner... CSB- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. NLT- For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 11) How exactly can someone who will never die be resurrected out from the dead? Because the word sleeping is used to mean physical death, but not the their spirit has died...the concept you keep putting forth is not valid....When we DIE we are SLEEPING in Jesus...Jesus used both words to denote this condition when talking about Lazarus...he said 'He is not dead but sleepeth and I go to awake him out of sleep...' He plainly said 'HE IS NOT DEAD,' then he said plainly 'LAZARUS IS DEAD'....you are pitting yourself against Jesus...you say 'how can a person be dead and not be dead? Jesus just explained it to you...when you sleep in Jesus your spirit has not died, but your body has...this is not a hard concept...your spirit leaves your body and James said you are dead...the spirit of the person did NOT DIE, but is sleeping in Jesus...you are ignoring the way Jesus defined death in order to make your theory work...it does not work...the bodies of the saints are considered dead when their spirit leaves their body...that body must be resurrected and changed just like the two witnesses...they were sleeping in Jesus for 3.5 days...and yet their DEAD bodies laid in the street for 3.5 days...they were both dead and also sleeping in Jesus. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 12) If decay can not inherit immortality, how can any of the 'dead' be raised immortal before the GWTJ? This is an incoherent statement...if they can be raised immortal at the GWTJ, they can also be raised immortal at the Second coming. The 'corruption does not inherit incorruption' phrase means that a flesh and blood body will not inherit incorruption...meaning it must be changed first to immortality...he said this corruption MUST put on incorruption...meaning this body MUST be changed before immortality...this is of course not seen when you go to a funeral of a dead believer...their body is corruptible laying in the casket...why is still corruptible laying in the casket? Because the resurrection has not taken place for them...just like the two witnesses laid dead in the street, they had not yet put on incorruption and so their bodies WERE STILL THERE JUST LIKE A DEAD BELIEVER'S BODY IS IN THE CASKET.... They have not put on incorruption or that body WOULD NOT BE THERE...IT WOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED. But it wasn't changed because the last trump did not sound when they died...they are waiting for the last trumpet just like the two witnesses were waiting for the last trumpet to sound...and what happened when it did? The BODIES were no longer in the street...they ascended UP TO HEAVEN...this is what happens...the dead are resurrected and THEN THEY ASCEND upon their resurrection NOT UPON THEIR DEATH....They STOOD UPON THEIR FEET, when the spirit entered into them...why does not the body in the casket stand upon their feet? Because the spirit of life from God will not enter them until the last day...how long did they stand upon their feet before ascending up? It happened right after they were resurrected...it all happens on one day...but of course those in the casket are still in the casket or in the grave because that day has not yet come. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: You KEEP SAYING all the saints are being raised at one time but THAT isn't what is written That is exactly what is written...WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: it is the DEAD, NOT the saints that rise. WHY are you calling the DEAD saints? and Why are you calling the SAINTS the dead? This is the same game play over the words 'dead' and 'sleep' ...as long as you pit one word against the other instead of using them to denote the same condition you will never get out of this trap. I am calling them DEAD because JESUS IS CALLING THEM DEAD...it is you who refuses to call them dead, because you ignore the sleep aspect of death. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: The resurrection is of the JUST AND THE UNJUST, you surely are not calling the UNJUST SAINTS, correct? As long as you play all your cards on the invalid definition of death you will continue to go in circles. Of course I am not calling the UNJUST saints...this is absurd..both groups are sleeping in the dust, whether they were just or unjust...both groups awake at the resurrection and are judged...both groups are called dead, and both groups are sleeping... On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: PLEASE, WATCH CLOSELY IN THE GREEK 1 Corinth 15:50 This now I say, brothers, that flesh and blood, [the] kingdom of God to inherit not is able, NOR the decay the immortality does inherit. IF THE SAINTS ARE GOING TO BE RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DECAY, AND THE DECAY DOES NOT RECEIVE IMMORTALITY, DOESN'T THAT ALONE TELL YOU THE DEAD, IN FACT, ARE SIMPLY 'THE DEAD THAT ARE RAISED AND NOT THE SAINTS AT ALL? You don't even have to go the Greek to understand this...the corruption MUST put on incorruption before it can inherit the kingdom...'nor the decay the immortality does inherit' doesn't change the meaning. The Greek is translated into English whether you say 'corruption does not inherit incorruption,' or 'nor the decay the immortality does inherit.' This Corruption MUST put on incorruption...he isn't saying we have not corrupted...he is saying the corruption puts on incorruption. The two witnesses had already began to corrupt just as Lazarus had began to be corrupt after 4 days...THAT CORRUPTION did not inherit the kingdom of God...THAT CORRUPTION, or that corruptible body was CHANGED...that is the word both Job and Paul used...we shall all be CHANGED...that is what happened to the two witnesses...that corruptible body DID NOT ascend up to heaven...that corruptible body was first changed and THEN it ascended up. On 7/20/2022 at 3:16 AM, DeighAnn said: 51 Behold a mystery to you I tell. ALL not we will sleep, all however we will be changed 52 in an instant, in twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, The trumpet will sound for and the DEAD will be raised imperishable and we will be changed NOW YOUR RENDERING OF 52 in an instant, in twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet, The trumpet will sound for and the SAINTS will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed Do you see how YOU HAVE CHANGED THE ENTIRE MEANING OF WHAT IS WRITTEN BY SUBTRACTING 'THE DEAD' AND ADDING 'THE SAINTS' IN ITS PLACE, EVEN KNOWING John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this? The cards are still based on your invalid definition of death..you are building your house on this....no I have not changed the entire meaning of what is written by saying the exact same thing Paul said...Paul said we would all be changed...the two witnesses were CHANGED and they had been dead for 3.5 days...I have not subtracted 'The Dead' and added 'the saints' in its place...Paul said THE DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first...He is talking about SAINTS who have DIED...he is not saying they are not saints, nor he is saying they have not died....it is you who is changing the entire meaning of what is said...Paul said 'dead saints' you say there is no such thing...who is right? Of course Jesus and Daniel and Paul and Job are all using the word 'sleeping' and 'awaking' but all you focus on is one aspect of what the word dead means but do not include that it is also called sleeping in Jesus. It is the body that is dead, the spirit is sleeping in Jesus...the spirit has not died, the body has died...but all you look at is that Jesus said they would never die...he is not talking about their body will never die...their bodies WILL DIE or there would never be a resurrection of the just. On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: On 7/19/2022 at 4:34 PM, transmogrified said: There are not two last days...this is absurd. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. The scriptures you give do not say there were two last days...there is only one last day... Yes, there was a resurrection that took place when the graves were opened...they were not changed into immortal bodies...Paul said after this happened that Jesus is the only one who has immortality...Peter said after this happened that David had not ascended up to heaven...they did not go to heaven...they went to Jerusalem and died again later...they are waiting the resurrection at the last trump just like Job, Daniel and Abraham and Lazarus. On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: WHO COULD BELIEVE IN CHRIST EVEN THOUGH HE WERE ALREADY DEAD AND IN THE GRAVE? This scripture is not talking about someone believing who is in the grave..it is talking about one who was a believer and yet he died. This is made a bit more clear in other translations. NIV- Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; CSB-Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live. On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: ONLY SOMEONE WHO WAS DEAD AND IN THE GRAVE AT THE SAME TIME CHRIST WAS. HE doesn't keep going back. Just the one time would He die and descend. Of course he doesn't 'keep going back' because the Old Testament saints were never raised to immortality at that time anyway. Lazarus was not raised to immortality...no one has been raised to immortality because there is only one resurrection for all believers on the last day...so to say 'he doesn't keep going back' is an incoherent statement...they were never raised to immortality at any time so why say 'he doesn't keep going back?' On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: Just the one time would He die and descend. Yes he died one time and descended...but as was said, We all are changed at the last trump so no one was resurrected to immortality when he descended. On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: (and please don't try to flip this to being 'spiritually dead' the time being Lazarus in the grave, PHYSICALLY DEAD) I am not flipping this. Jesus said Lazarus was not dead, but sleeping, he also said Lazarus was dead..Was he dead or sleeping? Jesus awoke him and he also raised him from the dead...it means the same thing. On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men. NOT A RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS, BUT OF THE DEAD Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. SAME ONE, SAME DEAD NOT SAINTS Yes, you can claim they are not dead but they are still dead...their body has died, just as the two witnesses bodies were dead...you can say they did not die, but they still died..you can say the saints do not die, but they still die...the only leverage you have is you are pitting the word 'death' against 'sleeping in Jesus' as one points to the body and the other points to their spirit. It is absolutely false...you only claim one aspect of the scripture is true and deny the other...The apostles and prophets and Jesus himself say the saints will be resurrected...the only way they can be raised from the dead is if they are dead... even quoting there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust betrays your position...how is it only the unjust can be resurrected from the dead and yet if he uses the word 'resurrection' for the just, it can't mean they are dead? This is absurd. On 7/20/2022 at 3:31 AM, DeighAnn said: Praise ye the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and His Saviour Jesus Christ Indeed...God bless you- Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 24, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,884 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,772 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 24, 2022 14 hours ago, Sister said: Your closest friendt The angels of heaven are also clothed in pure and white linen. Here is an example; Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. All the angels of heaven are faithful to the Lord God, and serve in that light, for there is no darkness in them, which is why they are clothed in pure and white linen. We also who serve in that light will be given white robes, but not yet, until Christ comes in the clouds with all his armies, which are the angels, in the glory of the Father who made heaven and earth, and who's word cannot be broken but is true comes for us. We were told in Matthew 16:27 that when Christ returns, he will come with the angels of heaven, and if we missed that - it's repeated again in Mat 25:31, ...we were also told in Mark 8:38, and if we missed that we were told in Luke 9:26. Told four times, but not once told that Christ will descend from heaven with his saints. Enoch prophesied that Christ will come with ten thousand of his saints, and if you are on the ground, that is what you will see 'after' the gathering. The gathering is in 'the air', not in heaven, but in the air on the clouds, at that level, in the earth. The gathering does not happen in heaven, but in the earth after Christ comes out of heaven with all his angels prepared for war, and prepared to collect the saints to give them their reward. So far not one person has said this is truth. Not my words also, but it is written. At Sister, In your mentioning rev 15:6 I posted bellow the chapter 15 to relate to the context... In ch.15 and v.1, the Apostle John is telling that he saw the seven Angels with the seven plagues and he will tell us more about them later.... In v.2 the Apostle is telling us about something else that he saw a wonderful thing, he saw THEM, (and who are they?), they were they who HAD GOTTEN the victory (the victory and against whom?) against the beast, (more) and over his image, (more) and over his mark, (and one more victory) over the number of his name. Standing on the sea of glass mingled with fire having the harps of God. And they sing (that's very important) the song of Moses the servant of God, (this is a reference to Moses as the servant of God) and the song of the Lamb of God, saying, "Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and truth are thy ways, thou King of Saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. V.3,4. And then in v.5, which begins with the words " And after that.." 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:..... and in v.6 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And in v.7, and 8. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And verse 8,no man was able to enter the Temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. those angels were very unique chosen for their special mission as it is described in rev. ch.15; Those Angels are not the riders of the white horses of the army of Jesus Christ... There is nothing about them riding horses.... ***The riders clothed with white linen raiment have earned those raiment and the invitation to be the riders of the white horses in the army of Jesus Christ.... It can only be attributed to the special believers of Jesus because they may also be disqualified and their position and their raiment taken away from them... When someone earns something as being promoted in a position he may also be demoted from that position...or he may not be willing to follow up and be diligent in following the Lord in the battle... The Lord must call, it is his call to call anyone to be the rider of one of his white horses and be in his army... Here we learn that Jesus Christ has called some of us and has given them a white horse to be part of the Army he is leading... that can only be in this scripture about believers... Jesus Christ has all the Angels under his command and each one of them has his special calling also... Revelation 15:1-8 15: 1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. 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Sister Posted July 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2022 5 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: Those Angels are not the riders of the white horses of the army of Jesus Christ... There is nothing about them riding horses.... Your closest friendnt I was just giving you an example that the holy angels are also dressed in pure and white linen. That was my point. Don't get this part confused with the saints. Jesus has to come first with his angels to give reward unto the saints. There are no saints currently in heaven. All the dead saints have returned to dust....because we are still under 'the elements of this world' that were created for the flesh - until our change come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,884 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,772 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 25, 2022 18 hours ago, Sister said: Your closest friendnt I was just giving you an example that the holy angels are also dressed in pure and white linen. That was my point. Don't get this part confused with the saints. Jesus has to come first with his angels to give reward unto the saints. There are no saints currently in heaven. All the dead saints have returned to dust....because we are still under 'the elements of this world' that were created for the flesh - until our change come. @Sister, In revelation Ch.15 and v.2-5 posted bellow we have a group of people having the harps of God standing before God on a glass surface mingle with fire and they sing the song of Moses the Servant of God and of the Lamb.... The Apostle Jesus loved saw what was happening in Heaven before the Throne of God... He described something that was happening and that had happened before he saw the vision and the same thing will continue to happen there after... And in v.2 it gives out who are those with the harps of God, and are standing on what looked like a sea of glass mingle withfire before the Throne of God...singing the song of Moses the Servant of God, those must be Israelites who were singing the song of Moses how the Lord God Almighty got them out of Egypt...and together with others sung the Song also of the Lamb of God. They singing to the Lord God Almighty who delivered them out of Egypt and to the Lamb of God.. They were singing to the one who sat on the Throne who had done great things during Moses times and who also had done great things by being the Lamb of God... The God Almighty who was the Creator of the world and man, the Lord God Almighty and who had left everything to enter our world when he was born in Bethlehem from Mary... The same one the Creator who had the Life, the Light of the world, was manifested in the flesh when he was born in Bethlehem. ***those who are honor and have been given the harps of God to sing before him in Heaven are men and not Angels and not just any believers by they are of those believers that are of a special breed, who in verse 2 are described as those who had gotten the victory (grammar is in the past) over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name. ****this was happening during John's vision and continuing to happen... This could only happen after the Cross and resurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ by the Heavenly Father... ****is there anything in the letter of revelation to say anything to the contrary? Ch.15,v.2 2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: ********we have a lot of scriptures that the Angels are giving their testimony that Jesus is the Christ the promise Messiah, at the time of his birth to the Shepherds in Bethlehem and the testimony of the Archangel Gabriel when he announced the news to Mary, about her being chosen for the role to be the mother of Jesus and help with his upbringing from infancy... Jesus during his ministry repeatedly said that the Angels know who he is...they know that he is their Creator, they know that they are his Angels, that Jesus before he was born in Bethlehem was the Creator of all and their Creator...that's why Jesus keep saying that the sign of the Son of Man and his Holy Angels. JESUS when he was saying those things he was identifying himself who he really was, the Lord God Almighty the Creator of the world and man and the Holy Angels. "the Holy Angels came to served him" after the forty days in the desert " and the Holy Angels will never let anything happen to you, and were there all the time to protect him from a premature death and the attacks of the people against him...but the suffering and his death on the Cross was the will of God, but still protected him from the righteous indignation of the Jews, that no one of them took matters in his own hand and tried to kill him even on his way to Calvary... But Jesus Christ came to saved men and not Angels... as we read in the letter to Hebrews that Jesus was surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses those he had saved and had given them eternal Life...and one time he astonished Peter when he encouraged him to do to Cornelius home without any hesitation when he show him the vision of those who had believe in him during his three days after his death when he preached the Gospel to the those who had died before him, to all the dead of the world, when he showed Peter the net that came down from Heaven three times and it was taken back to Heaven, and all the different people of the world who believed in him when they heard him preached the Gospel to them while he was in the place of the dead. And gave Peter the testimony that they were with him in Heaven...They believed in him and they became his own, and they are together with him in Heaven... Peter never preached a word against that...that's why the disciples preached that we are one with God the Heavenly Father because of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ is one with the Father and we are one with Jesus Christ... Do you read anything contrary to that in the book of revelation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 26, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2022 (edited) On 7/26/2022 at 3:40 AM, Your closest friendnt said: In revelation Ch.15 and v.2-5 posted bellow we have a group of people having the harps of God standing before God on a glass surface mingle with fire and they sing the song of Moses the Servant of God and of the Lamb.... Hi Your closest friendnt Yes interesting indeed. Seeing as you are very persistent with discussing this chapter, I will share with you what I have learned. The song of Moses is not a tune with lyrics, but it is the truth of the OT, starting from the creation in Genesis revealing the Lord God, who he is and how he started creating foundations, and then how he operates in making a people for himself, and giving the laws and so forth. That song is the understanding of the beginning of creation going right through out the OT, and we don't have to be an Israelite to understand what God has revealed to us, but can observe his methods and ways, and judgements and mercies through the written word given to all of us. The song of the Lamb is the truth of the New Testament. Knowing who Jesus is, and the relationship between the Son and Father, our very foundation, and how God operates through his Son, the Word of God made flesh, and through the apostles, and to be given the understanding of all the meat given from the beginning of this NT to the end. We cannot have the NT without the OT, and we cannot have OT without the new, because it's a progression from start to finish to receive the whole picture and plan of God. I will continue in the next post. Edited July 27, 2022 by Sister removed smiley face code which came up, and spelling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 26, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 26, 2022 7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: And in v.2 it gives out who are those with the harps of God, and are standing on what looked like a sea of glass mingle withfire before the Throne of God...singing the song of Moses the Servant of God, those must be Israelites who were singing the song of Moses how the Lord God Almighty got them out of Egypt...and together with others sung the Song also of the Lamb of God. You don't have to be an Israelite to understand what God has revealed to us all. This is why Jesus has given the holy spirit to those who worship him in spirit and in truth, as a helping hand in receiving the truth by understanding what is spoken through searching and studying the written word and embracing all that truth to receive a good solid foundation on which to grow on. The scriptures clearly say that Israel rejected the Messiah, and will receive their mercy at the Coming. They must go through the fire with everyone else because God has spoken and told us way in advance of what is going to happen through the prophets, and God's word cannot be broken. What he says will come -will be, and the one whom they did not believe in will save them from their enemies at his return. This is when Christ will be glorified in them. Any Israelite who believes or believed in Jesus, will be in the first resurrection, and one with the saints..... not separated because they are Jew. So I am speaking above about Israel as a nation, and the remnants of Israel who will be spared to receive mercy. So this song of Moses, is not a song with lyrics that anyone can learn. It's a different type of song, and is the song of truth that only the Lamb can give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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