Heleadethme Posted May 31, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.33 Reputation: 3,268 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2022 10 hours ago, Sister said: Thanks. I was interrupted so many times when explaining Zion, I am surprised if what I said makes any sense to anyone! Hi Heleadethme. When Mary gave birth to Jesus, it was before Zion's labour pains came to her. Jesus was born flesh and had to mature, preach the NT, build up his fame, and the news had to spread of who he was and why he was sent. Once the Jews started getting stirred up, I'd say Zion was only going through the Braxton Hicks! But when Jesus' ministry was finished, and he was captured, entering into his great tribulation, you could say Zion started going into labour. On the morning that Jesus was resurrected, Zion had finally delivered her child. Jesus is the only one to date that has been born of Zion. He is the firstborn of the dead. To be truly born of Zion, one has to be in the resurrection, and that hasn't come yet. Yes, the church was born, but that is not the same type of thing I am explaining here. Israel most assuredly serves as an example to the church today. They witnessed God's power through Moses, and deliverance of their enemies. They were also given God's instructions and laws to follow showing the difference between Good and evil practices, had God's laws recorded for them, had it taught to them down through their generations, were shown God's wrath on those that disobeyed, and after all that, still managed to be beguiled by the serpent, into doing those things they were instructed not to do. The church is no different today, having the New Testament which contains the new laws, not as harsh, but repeating the same mistakes by not obeying God. It all comes down to the nature of the flesh, and the flesh wanting to fulfill it's lusts, whatever it desires. Man has been the same since the beginning, and the devil has always been there to entice us. Look, I don't see 'the church' as standing right today before the Lord God, or else the falling away wouldn't be here. My church is Christ, and the apostles he appointed over us to teach, and can't forget the prophets of old who God used to show us all the things to come. That's my church. And without Christ who gives the HS to understand, to comfort, and to show us all the things that are coming, feeding us not only the milk, but much of the hidden things, I would not understand one single bit of all this. But we all like to think we've got the HS don't we? So whatever we sow in this field, let it be a testament to us whether it be the spirit of truth or the spirit of error that is in us. And let us know when to walk away, if the soil we are planting in is not fertile. 1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Everyone who knows the Lord has been given their measure of the Holy Spirit. Many have not begun to learn to rely on Him though, they are still relying on man and/or self. And even those who have been weaned from the milk of course are always still learning and being tweaked and corrected along the way. I wouldn't necessarily argue with everything because God's word is multi-dimensional...His wisdom is manifold...and His voice is a voice of many waters....there can be different depths and heighths and breadths and lengths to what the Lord is saying prophetically...spiritual language. (Even where Rev speaks of the "voice of many waters" is telling us more than one thing about His voice in itself.) I'm just going to just plunk these scriptures down, which give us insight into Israel's sorrows/labour pains in case it's helpful to anyone: Isa 66:6-7 Hear that uproar from the city, hear that noise from the temple! It is the sound of the LORD repaying his enemies all they deserve. “Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Jer 4:30-31 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers. Hos 13:12-13 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. Now we see why Jesus spoke of sorrows/labour pains when He was warning and prophesying of Jerusalem’s judgment and the tribulations to come a few decades later: Mat 24:6-8 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. So yes Israel gave birth to the Son of God, but before her labour pains, which came when she was judged by the Lord later on, culminating in the destruction of Israel/Jerusalem and Temple in 70 AD.....fulfilling the Is. 66:6-7 prophecy of her judgment (as also Jesus Himself was warning and prophesying of her judgment in those Matt. 24 scriptures and elsewhere....since as well as being the Messiah, He was a prophet to Israel.....I think we sometimes might not really take that into account). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted June 1, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 (edited) On 5/31/2022 at 3:23 AM, Sister said: I can see where you are coming from, but unfortunately I can't agree and see it the same way you see it. Hello Sister- The scriptures pinpoint both the timing of the resurrection and who will be in it using different analogies and examples describing the same event. It specifically states this resurrection will be: 1) At the last day.. 2) At the end of this age... 3) At the Second Coming... 4) At the 7th Trumpet... There are also different analogies and examples of who will be in this resurrection part of which are described below: 1) The sheep are those who were the blessed of his Father... 2) Those who have done good are called the just... 3) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet are the saints... 4) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet includes the prophets.. 5) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet are those who fear his name, both small and great.. 6) Those who are raised at the Second Coming are those who belong to Christ.... The above examples are documented in specific scriptures verifying both the time this resurrection occurs and who will be resurrected. What is being put forth is that there is ANOTHER resurrection AFTER the 7th Trumpet in which ONLY Old Testament saints will be raised AND that they will be raised in MORTAL bodies. In Summary, what I am getting at is that the details of both WHO will be in this resurrection and WHEN this resurrection will occur are VERIFIABLE from MANY different places in Scripture. The scriptures showing people will be living and dying in mortal bodies during the 1000 year period is indisputable and fully documented. Without referring to the obvious fact that there will be people living and dying during the resurrection, please provide me with scripture showing the following: 1) Another resurrection that takes place AFTER the 7th Trumpet... 2) Another group of people being resurrected AFTER the 7th trumpet... 3) Specific scripture stating they are resurrected in MORTAL bodies... As was said there is excruciating detail on the resurrection at the last day, describing from many different angels when the resurrection takes place and who will be in it. Please provide with similar scriptural documentation describing specifically a: 1) Resurrection after the 7th Trumpet... 2) A resurrection that is only for Old Testament saints... 3) A resurrection specifically stating the Old Testament saints will be resurrected in mortal bodies... It is not sufficient to INFER this happened because of what may be assumed to have caused it. It must be stated in verbiage that completely describes all the details of what is being proposed. Quoting scriptures showing people in mortal bodies IS NOT EVIDENCE these were: 1) Old Testament believers who were raised in mortal bodies... 2) People who were raised after the 7th trumpet sounded... If there is no scripture explicitly stating another resurrection took place AFTER the 7th trumpet, there is no basis for believing it. If there is no scripture explicitly stating there will be another resurrection AFTER the 7th trumpet for only Old Testament believers, there is no basis for believing it. If there is no scripture explicitly stating the Old Testament believers will be raised in mortal bodies after the 7th Trumpet, there is no basis for believing it. And if it can not be shown to exist, there would also be no basis for me to think it over, as there has been nothing put forth in scripture to think about, which would also mean there is nothing to disagree about. I am not sure you realize how big of an issue this is. If there is nothing written describing anyone being raised after the 7th Trumpet, then what is being put forth is just as imaginary as Hymenaeus and Philetus saying the resurrection was passed already. Was it true because they said so? Of course not....Was it true because they believed it? Of course not...what was written at that time would easily show the resurrection had not passed already. What has pre trib done? They have added another resurrection before the last day. Does that make it true because they say so? Of course not. Does that make it true because they believe it? Of course not. What is the synopsis in the above two examples? In one they are ADDING to scripture and in the other they are TAKING AWAY from scripture. Please provide me with the scripture describing a resurrection in every detail of what you are saying. If someone asks me...will be all changed at the Second Coming? I can specifically point them to the exact verse saying yes we will. If someone asks will the prophets be rewarded at the 7th Trumpet, I can point them to the exact verse saying, yes it says so right here. If someone asks me, will we all be changed at the same time, I can say, yes it says so right here. If I ask you where it says there will be another resurrection after the 7th trumpet, you say 'It will be after the 7th trumpet but I don't know when.' WHERE does it say there will be another resurrection after the 7th Trumpet? WHERE is the scripture that states only Old Testament believers will be raised sometime after the 7th Trumpet sounds? WHERE is the scripture that states the Old Testament believers will be raised in mortal bodies? I am not guessing on anything I am putting forth....I can point to the exact verse saying it. I am not assuming people will be raised at the 7th trumpet because it seems like it would be a logical place to do it. I am not assuming we will all be changed at the last trump, it specifically says so. Please consider what you are asking me to believe. 1) You are asking me to believe that all who are in the graves will NOT come forth in the resurrection to immortality, something that is written. 2) You are asking me to believe there will be another resurrection after the 7th trumpet, something that is not written. 3) You are asking me to believe there will be another resurrection after the 7th trumpet for ONLY the Old Testament believers and that they will be raised in mortal bodies, something that is not written. 4) You are asking me to believe that the saints and the prophets and those that fear his name will NOT be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet, something that is written. 5) You are asking me to believe that ALL the saints will not return with Jesus, something that is written. 6) You are asking me to believe only PART of the saints will return with Jesus, something that is not written. If I believe what is written, it will contradict what is being put forth. If I believe what is being put forth it will contradict what is written. Everyone can not come out of the graves at the 7th Trumpet, and also have people who did not come out of the graves at the 7th Trumpet. There can not be a resurrection of the saints, and the prophets and those that fear his name at the 7th trumpet and also be another resurrection of the saints and the prophets and those that fear his name after they were just resurrected. Blessings to you and look forward to talking to you again- Gary Edited June 1, 2022 by transmogrified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: Hello Sister- The scriptures pinpoint both the timing of the resurrection and who will be in it using different analogies and examples describing the same event. It specifically states this resurrection will be: 1) At the last day.. 2) At the end of this age... 3) At the Second Coming... 4) At the 7th Trumpet... The above examples are documented in specific scriptures verifying both the time this resurrection occurs and who will be resurrected. Hi Gary Good to talk to you again. Yes, the above is the first resurrection. I agree with that timing. On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: There are also different analogies and examples of who will be in this resurrection part of which are described below: 1) The sheep are those who were the blessed of his Father... 2) Those who have done good are called the just... 3) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet are the saints... 4) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet includes the prophets.. 5) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet are those who fear his name, both small and great.. 6) Those who are raised at the Second Coming are those who belong to Christ.... The above examples are documented in specific scriptures verifying both the time this resurrection occurs and who will be resurrected. What is being put forth is that there is ANOTHER resurrection AFTER the 7th Trumpet in which ONLY Old Testament saints will be raised AND that they will be raised in MORTAL bodies. You've given an analagy of who will be in that first resurrection, but it's not specific with concrete evidence. It's just general with no verses. Please provide verses in the future so I can look up and see what's written in it's context. And if you don't mind, I don't want to be going all over the place but to tackle each point one at a time, or else the point gets lost, and the posts get to big, and It becomes overwhelming with too much information to answer. I hope you understand - shorter posts or replies if possible. I have been put into the 'defence' mode here, so when I answer the rest of your statements, or questions we can really get started, then I will have questions for you. Edited June 5, 2022 by Sister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: What is being put forth is that there is ANOTHER resurrection AFTER the 7th Trumpet in which ONLY Old Testament saints will be raised AND that they will be raised in MORTAL bodies. No, I specifically mentioned earlier on when we were first speaking that what I presented in Ezekiel 37 was not classed as 'a resurrection', as in 'the resurrection of the saints'. It's different and more like Lazarus being raised from the dead, where they will die again. It's more extreme however because these OT saints have been dead for thousands of years, and only their bones remain. The Lord is going to put their bones back together, put skin back on them, and breathe the spirit of life back into them. They will be raised 'flesh', and flesh is corruptible because flesh dies. So these bodies are not raised 'incorruptible'. I need you to understand this? And I thought you already did because you gave me the example of Lazarus in our earlier talks that you understood this. So Ezekiel 37 is not classed as 'the first resurrection', or another 'resurrection', but something completely unique and separate. It's a little surprise coming and is not taught or known in mainstream Christianity. I hope to delve into this more as we progress. Edited June 5, 2022 by Sister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: In Summary, what I am getting at is that the details of both WHO will be in this resurrection and WHEN this resurrection will occur are VERIFIABLE from MANY different places in Scripture. The scriptures showing people will be living and dying in mortal bodies during the 1000 year period is indisputable and fully documented. Without referring to the obvious fact that there will be people living and dying during the resurrection, please provide me with scripture showing the following: 1) Another resurrection that takes place AFTER the 7th Trumpet... I have already clarified it's not part of the '1st resurrection'. Not the same thing. On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: 2) Another group of people being resurrected AFTER the 7th trumpet... There are only 2 resurrections. The 1st at the Coming, and the 2nd resurrection which happens at the same time of the 2nd judgment after the 1000 years. See my answer above. On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: 3) Specific scripture stating they are resurrected in MORTAL bodies... Ezekiel 37. I already presented this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: Please provide with similar scriptural documentation describing specifically a: 1) Resurrection after the 7th Trumpet... 2) A resurrection that is only for Old Testament saints... 3) A resurrection specifically stating the Old Testament saints will be resurrected in mortal bodies... 1) Already explained 2) Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 3) Ezekiel 37. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, transmogrified said: It is not sufficient to INFER this happened because of what may be assumed to have caused it. It must be stated in verbiage that completely describes all the details of what is being proposed. Quoting scriptures showing people in mortal bodies IS NOT EVIDENCE these were: 1) Old Testament believers who were raised in mortal bodies... Gary Only the holy spirit can make one understand something or reveal it through the written Word. I see it in Ezekiel 37. I can not help it that you cannot see it, nor anyone else. I cannot do anything but guide you there to take a look and get stirred up to see if it sheds any more light to you. Quote 2) People who were raised after the 7th trumpet sounded... If there is no scripture explicitly stating another resurrection took place AFTER the 7th trumpet, there is no basis for believing it. This is where when I reply, I start to sound like a scratchy record. I will only be repeating the same thing over and over. Ezekiel 37 is not 'the resurrection'. It's not the first nor the 2nd resurrection, but something different in-between. Quote And if it can not be shown to exist, there would also be no basis for me to think it over, as there has been nothing put forth in scripture to think about, which would also mean there is nothing to disagree about. Well firstly, every one has built their truth according to the foundation they've received,.... and that's what they match the truth against....their foundation. I will match it against mine, the one I received. You are trying to reconcile what I am presenting with your foundation, ...your precepts. We seem to have agreement on many things, but when we go deeper I see our foundations are not the same, giving different results, making this hard to resolve. It's like knocking heads where one has to speak louder than the other, so please before you judge me guilty of presenting a faulty argument, please refrain from bombarding me with these lengthy posts where I spend all my energy on answering and defending numerous statements instead of getting a chance to ask you some questions. All I ask is for your patience. I am going to stop there with answering your questions for now. Because we need to go back to the drawing board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 Hi Gary We are going back to the drawing board now. I've answered many of your questions, now I would like you to answer some of mine. Do you believe there are two resurrections coming? Y/N Please provide a list of scriptures proving who exactly will be in the 1st resurrection. These scriptures need to be specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Sister said: I have been put into the 'defence' mode here, so when I answer the rest of your statements, or questions we can really get started, then I will have questions for you. Sister- Blessings to you...please don't be in defense mode...picture this as if we are putting together a puzzle on the coffee table...I am looking at pieces and you are looking at pieces...are we against each other? No...our battle is not with each other, it's looking at the pieces of the puzzle... one puts in one piece and it doesn't fit..that doesn't mean I am your enemy now...it doesn't mean you are my enemy...it means the piece didn't fit and so we have to look for the right piece... And you are right in keeping posts small so we can focus...So let's look at one of the first things you said here: 9 hours ago, Sister said: On 6/1/2022 at 10:02 AM, transmogrified said: There are also different analogies and examples of who will be in this resurrection part of which are described below: 1) The sheep are those who were the blessed of his Father... 2) Those who have done good are called the just... 3) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet are the saints... 4) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet includes the prophets.. 5) Those who are resurrected at the 7th trumpet are those who fear his name, both small and great.. 6) Those who are raised at the Second Coming are those who belong to Christ.... The above examples are documented in specific scriptures verifying both the time this resurrection occurs and who will be resurrected. What is being put forth is that there is ANOTHER resurrection AFTER the 7th Trumpet in which ONLY Old Testament saints will be raised AND that they will be raised in MORTAL bodies. You've given an analagy of who will be in that first resurrection, but it's not specific with concrete evidence. It's just general with no verses. Please provide verses in the future so I can look up and see what's written in it's context. Let's just take one verse and look at it...those who are rewarded at the 7th Trumpet. This is in Rev. 11:18: Quote And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; The above is what took place when the 7th Angel sounded in Rev. 11:15: Quote And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. So in summary, when the 7th Trumpet sounded, it gave a list of things that took place: 1) The kingdoms of this world became the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...so this is specifically the Second Coming, the last trump, the resurrection on the last day in John 6...and it also states 2) The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come... and then the one we want to focus on is the next phrase... 3) 'And the time of the dead that they should be judged...' Here John is revealing to us that the time of the dead that they should be judged will take place when the 7th trumpet sounds. In order for THE DEAD to be judged, they must be first resurrected...so keep in mind, he is calling this THE TIME OF THE DEAD, that THEY (the dead) should be judged. Also keep in mind 'THE DEAD' does not just mean the righteous dead, or the wicked dead, but 'THE DEAD' means everyone who is dead will be resurrected, whether good or bad... There is no distinction between 'THE DEAD' who died in the Old Testament, versus 'THE DEAD' who died in the New Testament...the phrase 'THE DEAD' means everyone who is dead. We know Rahab, Joshua, Abel, Abraham, Daniel are now dead. They and all the other believers who were in the Old Testament are in this category called 'THE DEAD.' There are only two groups you can be in ...either you are dead or you are alive..the dead who are resurrected and rewarded are: 1) His servants the prophets.. 2) The saints... 3) those that fear his name, both small and great... So the questions on this one verse is: 1) "Will God resurrect and reward his prophets at the 7th Trumpet? -Yes 2) Will God resurrect and reward his saints at the 7th Trumpet? -Yes 3) Will God resurrect and reward those who fear his name, both small and great at the 7th Trumpet? -Yes. There are scriptures going into detail showing the Old Testament believers were holy, or were saints, and that they feared his name, and that the prophets of the Old Testament were his servants. So of course it is acknowledged that Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Abraham, and others have been dead for thousands of years and yet it says at the 7th Trumpet these will be resurrected and rewarded. Seeing these are resurrected and rewarded at the 7th trumpet it can not be they will be resurrected or revived at another time after the 7th trumpet. Here are a few scriptures showing the prophets in the Old Testament were his servants: : Quote 1 Chron. 16:22 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. Quote 2 Kings 21:10 And the LORD spake by his servants the prophets, saying, Quote Jer. 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD. Quote Dan. 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, Quote Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Quote Luke 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: So the point with the above scriptures is that these are specifically stated to be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet and not at a different time after the 7th trumpet sounds. These, and the saints who remained faithful to God were the natural branches who were not broken off during the entire Old Testament time. Even when Jesus came it does not say that every Old Testament believer was broken off, but rather that SOME of them were broken off. What must be acknowledged is the Old Testament believers and those who were not broken off when Christ came were the natural branches and were in Christ during that entire time. So these two things must be connected...if they were in the vine and the vine is Christ, then they were in Christ. If some of them were not broken off, then they remained in Christ and accepted him when the truth of the New Testament was given to them. No one could know some of the things that Jesus revealed when he came, as it says he would utter things that had been kept secret since the foundation of the world. God is not blaming them or saying because they did not know everything we know during our day that they thus were not in Christ. Just like it says the man of sin will be revealed in his time. We don't know who he is until he is revealed, and there are believers during the last 2000 years who have been in Christ and have not known who he is. God is not punishing you or me because we don't know something that has not been revealed yet, or saying we are not in Christ because of it. So just connecting these two obvious points about the branches and the vine places the faithful Old Testament believers in the category of being in Christ. What this means is when they died, they died in Christ and will thus also be included in those who are the dead in Christ who will be resurrected at the Second Coming which of course means they are included in 'THE SAINTS' category of those who are resurrected and rewarded at the 7th trumpet. It cannot just be said 'the Old Testament believers were not in Christ' and think the problem is solved. If the oil light on the dash is on, its because there is a problem. Disconnecting the oil light does not mean the engine is now ok...No. The oil light will go off when the engine gets the oil..saying they were not in Christ is just disconnecting the oil light while the problem still remains.... In summary: 1) God will resurrect and reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet... 2) Those of the Old Testament were the natural branches that were in Christ which also means they died in Christ and will be resurrected with all the others who died in Christ at the Second Coming...as it states, 'the dead in Christ shall rise first.' It cannot be said God will not reward his servants the prophets at the 7th Trumpet when it specifically states that is when they will be resurrected and rewarded. This means there is not another time when his servants the prophets are resurrected or raised. It cannot be said the natural branches were not in Christ, when the vine is specifically identified to be Christ, and the Old Testament believers are specifically identified to be the natural branches Paul was speaking of. What these scriptures do is clarify the meaning of Ez. 37. The house of Israel consists of his servants the prophets, the saints and them that fear his name...it is not limited to only those of the Old Testament, but they are included in the list. So when it says he would open their graves, it is the same time he opens the graves of everyone who is dead, as Jesus said that all those in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...these are part of those who are in the graves; Quote Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, The part that seems to be easily misunderstood is the next part where it says: Quote And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. God is addressing both the living and the dead of Israel in Ez. 37...the dead are those who come out of their graves when all the others come out of their graves...at the Second Coming. The part about God pouring out his spirit on them pertains to the 144000 who are alive and who are converted at the Second Coming. It is not a separate resurrection after the 7th trumpet, seeing Revelation specifically states the saints and prophets will be resurrected and rewarded then...it cannot be both...the saints and prophets can not be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet and also be resurrected and rewarded after the 7th trumpet. It shows the dead being resurrected at the Second Coming and it also shows the 144000 converted at the Second Coming...there is no additional resurrection or being revived later seeing both the living and the dead are dealt with at the Second Coming. And please reconsider the alleged distinction between being resurrected or being 'raised' or 'revived'...these are not valid distinctions in the English language, nor in the scripture. Anyone who is resurrected is also raised, or revived..the only way one can get from death to life is by being resurrected...the words are used interchangeably as it is with many words in all languages... Blessings to you- Gary Edited June 5, 2022 by transmogrified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted June 5, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.03 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 5, 2022 2 hours ago, transmogrified said: Sister- Blessings to you...please don't be in defense mode...picture this as if we are putting together a puzzle on the coffee table...I am looking at pieces and you are looking at pieces...are we against each other? No...our battle is not with each other, it's looking at the pieces of the puzzle... one puts in one piece and it doesn't fit..that doesn't mean I am your enemy now...it doesn't mean you are my enemy...it means the piece didn't fit and so we have to look for the right piece... Ok thanks. Note taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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