Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The CLASSIC pre trib rapture MISUNDERSTANDING.  

Yes, THEY get sudden destruction.  The SEA being parted, WATER from a rock, FIERY furnace, Lions Den, an invisible army defeating the enemy....the list of GODS POWERS goes on and on.  WE are protected by the gospel armor.  QUIT THINKING IN THE FLESH.    Until you have FAITH in GOD to KEEP you NO MATTER WHAT, I can't help.  

Not even doing the Thess thing as it has been done to death and we all know how there is NO GOING BACK TO HEAVEN just those joining Christ and His army before the day begins.  

You say there is a rapture before the 6th seal.  How about showing me where GOD said it.

Preconceived theories are well known to block the intent of the Author in scriptures. The truth of scripture is simple: GOD is pretrib so the scripture is pretrib concerning the rapture of the church. God is a GOOD God and has no desire to pour out His wrath on His own children. Where do I get this idea? 

Who is the only writer of the NT to receive the revelation of the catching up of those who are alive? It was Paul.  He wrote of the catching up of the saints. His writing is the only place to go to find out about the rapture, with one exception: John 14. That passage does not talk about the catching up, but gives us the direction after we are caught up.

My point is, there is only one place to go for the TIMING of the catching up, and that is where Paul talked about it: 1 thes. 4 & 5.

Since you missed it the first time, let's go over it again: Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after his classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4:17.  Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord in a rapture passage? It is because there is a connection between the two. Then Paul shows us the connection.

Many people miss this, but Paul's sudden destruction comes AT THE SAME TIME as those who are alive and in Christ are caught up. Paul gives us a paradigm - showing us TWO very different groups of people who get two very different results at the same moment in time: THEY (those living in darkness) get sudden destruction while WE (those alive and in Christ) get raptured.

Did you ever wonder what this "sudden destruction" will be? I did, and asked God. If you read in Matthew 27, when Jesus rose from the dead, many of the OT saints were also resurrected (I believe it was the "elders").  And there was an earthquake. John wrote that when the Two Witnesses are resurrected there will be an earthquake. The earthquake is caused by God bringing together the "dust" that once formed those bodies. Consider how long ago Adam died. He would be the oldest of the "elders." The "dust" that once formed his body could (and probably was) spread far and wide from the burial sight. Same with all of those of the many from the OT that was resurrected with Jesus. 

When God brought together that "dust" that once formed their bodies, possibly spread hundreds of miles in all directions, it caused a great earthquake.

When God resurrects the dead in Christ, many of them dead for over a 1000 years, when God pulls together the "dust" that once formed their bodies, it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake like nothing anyone has seen before. I believe this earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction" that comes at the same moment those alive and in Christ are caught up. 

Next, Paul wrote of God's wrath. He wrote that God is setting NO appointments for US with His wrath, hinting strongly that God WILL set appointments for those living in the darkness with His wrath.

One moment after the dead in Christ are raised, WE get caught up, while THEY get caught in a worldwide earthquake that Paul hints strongly is the start of God's wrath.

All this is teaching us that the rapture - PAUL's GATHERING - will come just before the start of God's wrath, and will probably be the trigger for the Start of His wrath and the start of the Day of the Lord.

Where in John's timeline does He show us God's wrath starting? It is at the 6th seal. Therefore, when we consider Paul AND John, the rapture must come just before the 6th seal. As further proof, John then SAW the raptured church just after the 6th seal events safely away from God's wrath in the throne room of heaven - as that great crowd too large to number.

As further proof, the church age martyrs are told that Judgment (could we consider that judgment will begin with His wrath? I think so.) cannot begin until the last martyr is killed as they were killed - as church age martyrs. What will cause a certain martyr to be the very last martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs? 

Of course, the END of the church age. The age of Grace will end with Paul's rapture, and the Day of the Lord will start immediately - no time between.

If you disagree, can you show with scripture why you disagree? Can you point out any verse in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 that would give a different timing?

Can you prove with scripture that the rapture cannot come between the 5th and 6th seals? 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, THEY get sudden destruction.  The SEA being parted, WATER from a rock, FIERY furnace, Lions Den, an invisible army defeating the enemy....the list of GODS POWERS goes on and on.  WE are protected by the gospel armor.  QUIT THINKING IN THE FLESH.    Until you have FAITH in GOD to KEEP you NO MATTER WHAT, I can't help.  

Not even doing the Thess thing as it has been done to death and we all know how there is NO GOING BACK TO HEAVEN just those joining Christ and His army before the day begins.  

You say there is a rapture before the 6th seal.  How about showing me where GOD said it.

What an amazing answer! What does the sea being parted have to do with the timing of the rapture? The answer is, NOTHING.

What does water from the rock have to do with the timing of the rapture? The answer is, NOTHING.

What does the lion's den have to do with the timing of the rapture? The answer is, NOTHING.

We have SPECIFIC scripture about the saints during the days of great tribulation. 

BOTH scriptures tell us the saints will be OVERCOME.  Why then bring up scriptures about other times and other events when we have SPECIFIC passages about the very time we are talking about?

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WE are protected by the gospel armor. 

This is true DURING THE CHURCH AGE. It will not override the two verses that tell us that during the tribulation the saints will be OVERCOME. We have to rightly divide the scriptures. We have to understand scriptures IN THEIR CONTEXT. God's word is already out about the days of great tribulation. The saints are going to be overcome. Let's not disagree with HIS word.

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Until you have FAITH in GOD to KEEP you NO MATTER WHAT, I can't help.  

When Jesus is showing us our homes He has built for us, we will have no need to be "kept." We will be safe.

Isaiah 26:20  Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Why desire to live through God's wrath poured out when God's plan is that we be hidden away in safety?

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Luk: 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Why desire to live through being forced to either take the mark or lose your head, when God's plan is for you to escape to safety? If your faith is to be left behind, I really believe God will honor your faith and give you what you are believing for. I suggest a better plan would be to begin praying that you will be found worthy to escape.

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Not even doing the Thess thing

It is NO WONDER we disagree: Paul received the revelation of the rapture events. People that try to find the rapture in other places end up in error.

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we all know how there is NO GOING BACK TO HEAVEN

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John and the Holy Spirit disagree with you. It is simplest form: Jesus went to build homes for us, so when we arrive in heaven we will have a "home." One day He will come and get us so we will be with Him. WHERE? Of course where Jesus is and will be: in heaven.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes I did.  And you asking the question is uncalled for and is only posed to make yourself look good and me look bad.  

If you did read that passage, why then would you write "EXACTLY what verse is it that told you 'the church' was going to be removed from the earth?"

You asked the question and I gave you the verse. This verse is very clear that the church will be caught up into the air and into the clouds. 

I am amazed then that you would ask me what verse when you knew what verse.

Now I have another question: why did you ask that question? We all (supposedly) form our doctrine from the written word. Here is a verse that clearly shows the church removed from the earth, yet you seem to deny it. It simply amazed me that people form doctrines against the written word.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

...

If ALL the swimmers were eaten by sharks, how many swimmers would be left behind to swim?  Again, none as they ALL got eaten

We could go on and on all day and the results would be the same.  

Let's ask the question of our fellow Christian believers.  

Those who do not believe in pre trib rapture first.

When ALL the alive and remaining are changed, how many alive and remaining would be left?  

NONE because Jesus has returned and the Lords Day is beginning.  All those alive and remaining are changed and are caught up or gathered to the Lord and His armies AS THE LORD IS DESCENDING to sit on HIS THRONE upon the earth, the throne of David, and we will rule and reign with Him for 1000 years. 

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Jesus has returned and the Lords Day is beginning. 

What is "the Lord's day?" Do you mean the Day of the Lord?

If not, please explain your meaning.

If you mean the day of the Lord, you are mistaken in your timing. John starts the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal in chapter 6 and His coming.

If you mean "the Lord's day" as the day of His coming, please show the scripture where you got that title. 

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When ALL the alive and remaining are changed, how many alive and remaining would be left?  

You are mistaken again. IN CONTEXT it is only those alive and remaining that are IN CHRIST that get changed. The sinners don't get changed: they get left behind and get sudden destruction.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Who has to be here, to hear them saying PEACE AND SAFETY?  The church. 

No, NOT the church, for the church will be caught up as in 4:17.

"when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them"

The same people that SAY it are the same who receive the sudden destruction.

What is Paul telling us here? At the time of the rapture, the sinners will be living life to the fullest (Just as in the days of Noah) and think all is well (peace and safety.) They don't know that a SUDDENLY is coming, just as in the days of Noah.

Note: all people left alive (remaining) are NOT changed. Only those in Christ are changed, and those left behind live through Revelation chapters 8 through 16 - the tribulation period or the 70th week.

 

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

If you wish to stay behind and suffer through the time of God's wrath poured out - if this is where your faith is - I believe God will honor your faith and leave you behind. Everything we ever get from God we get by our faith.

Hi Iamlamad...

The scripture that we are not appointed to wrath still holds true to those saints who are alive during the tribulation...God will not pour out his wrath on them during that time just as he doesn't pour out his wrath on us during this time.

God does not pour out his wrath on those who follow him no matter what time they live in...His wrath is upon the wicked, not the righteous...

There is no resurrection before the tribulation as all of those who believe will be resurrected on the last day...meaning there is no rapture for anyone before the last day.. no one can miss a pre trib rapture just the same as no one can be in a pre trib rapture because it is not scheduled to occur until the last day. Believing it will happen pre trib will not make it happen. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, transmogrified said:

Hi Iamlamad...

The scripture that we are not appointed to wrath still holds true to those saints who are alive during the tribulation...God will not pour out his wrath on them during that time just as he doesn't pour out his wrath on us during this time.

God does not pour out his wrath on those who follow him no matter what time they live in...His wrath is upon the wicked, not the righteous...

There is no resurrection before the tribulation as all of those who believe will be resurrected on the last day...meaning there is no rapture for anyone before the last day.. no one can miss a pre trib rapture just the same as no one can be in a pre trib rapture because it is not scheduled to occur until the last day. Believing it will happen pre trib will not make it happen. 

Blessings to you- Gary

I disagree. When God cranks up the heat, it is going to be hot everywhere. When God turns out the lights, it is going to be dark everywhere.

You and I disagree. There will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ before the trib. 

But there will certainly be a resurrection of the OT saints on the last day.

We can agree Jesus died for us!

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Who has to be here, to hear them saying PEACE AND SAFETY?  The church.

Again, there is no one left once 'the dead' rise and the alive and remaining are changed.  Every thing that follows is fruit of the poisonous tree.  

But since you brought up a perfect example, what do we find written in 1 Thess 5? 
 
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Not the 'days' but the day.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Does that sound ANYTHING like  "But ye brethren WILL BE IN HEAVEN so that day won't overtake you?"  

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Does that sound ANYTHING like 'Ye are the church that will be in heaven'?  

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Not the hope of pre trib rapture which,  I'm sure all would agree,  would be a place to place that information if it were part of Gods Plan. 

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Nothing on PRE TRIB.  Every word about being prepared.  Living or dying doesn't matter because we are always with the Lord.  No need to go to heaven OUR PROTECTION is found in the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet, which is the hope of salvation,  NOT a pre trib rapture.   



I am many posts behind, so if you could wait until I catch up it would be nice.  

I don't believe you will agree with much I write, because our beliefs are so different, so I will probably quit.

Hopefully we can agree that Jesus died for us.

[Serving]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:48 AM, transmogrified said:

There is no body that is fully spirit both inside and out...that does not even make sense...God is inside of the body of Christ..Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones...

 

 

You're flesh inside and out right?

So that's okay but being Spirit inside and out is not?

That doesn't make sense.

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I have faith that God's Wrath can fall all around me and not a hair on my head be effected by it.  I have faith that if I was killed by some fire ball, that I would continue on living in my spiritual body and so IT WOULDN'T MATTER EITHER WAY.  I don't fear the death of this body in any way shape or form because IT IS TEMPORARY and I have received the gift of SALVATION and I am NEVER GOING TO DIE.  Believe this, I do.  

Well I hope I have address all your concerns.  Now I must go feed the songbirds as they are out of food and the bees are starting to swarm which is making the hummingbirds have to fight for their food not to mention it's starting to get hot and they all need their showers so have to go turn that on and all the dogs are staring cause they haven't gotten the morning play and treats and are really tired of waiting because they keep placing themselves to the left and right of the computer screen so I can see them staring which just gets to be so funny as I move the computer slightly and so they have to move....  So until the next round....

In this case you will be trying to have faith against the word of God. That will not work. Here are verses you can put you faith in, for they are about the same period of time.

Dan. 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Rev, 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Here is further proof. These are the martyrs of the Beast showing up in heaven. HOW did they get victory over the Beast? The next verse will tell us.

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev. 20:4 ...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What are all these verses telling us? There will be only one way to win if someone is left behind and must face the Beast or his henchmen: refuse the mark and lose their head.  People at that time could certainly apply their faith to these verses: that they would not love their life so much they would take the mark to stay alive.