AdHoc Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.31 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2022 18 hours ago, truth7t7 said: Harpazo/Rapture/Caught Up? Of course, but it takes place at the second coming of Jesus Christ, on the "Last Day" resurrection of all in final judgement, not 3.5 years before this as you believe and teach 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived 1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes! 2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes! 3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes! Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand. (THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION) 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION) John 5:28-29KJV 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 6:39-40KJV 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT) John 12:48KJV 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. You conveniently leave out a part of 1s Thessalonians 4:13-18, and you rip the verse on resurrection and judgement out of their contexts. Furthermore, you at no time defined "the Last day". 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 give an order in resurrection. This order is upheld in Revelation 20 where dead martyrs are resurrected to reign but "the rest of the dead do not live until 1,000 years is over". Then you do not emphasis, in 1st Thessalonian 4 that our Lord does not COME. He is PRESENT in the clouds and the saints GO to meet Him. It is NOT the SECOND COMING of Jesus but "OUR GATHERING TO HIM IN THE CLOUDS". As I said in an earlier posting, you never draw the argument to its end. With one liners, innuendo and verses ripped out of context you build your version of events. The above example is just one. Sad - because I think you are a fervent brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Keras said: This is pre-trib rapture unscriptural rubbish. However the Lord will come twice; at the Sixth Seal when He won't be seen, and after the seventh Bowl; Armageddon, when He will appear in glory; Returning to rule the world for the next thousand years. Ha ha! You are too funny! My friend, the Sixth seal is PRETRIB! (The "Trib" or 70th week will begin at the 7th seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2022 38 minutes ago, AdHoc said: Here's the text; 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved The answer of Peter is to answer "this" that the crowd questioned - that is, the various tongues. Since the judgment which formed the second part of the prophecy was not seen or felt, Peter's answer pertained only to the foreign tongues. But then Peter completes the prophecy but in the meanwhile he has divided the prophecy into two sections. They are; (i) "the last days" (plural), and (ii) "the great and notable day of the Lord" (singular). The signs in the sky are after the days that the Spirit is poured out, and before the Great day of the Lord. When a precept is in doubt because it may have multiple meanings, we are bound to interpret scripture with scripture. And we should, unless the text tells otherwise, give the same value for the same things. That is, whatever the length of the "days" (plural) are, so also is the length of the "Great day" (singular). Now, without writing a page, we only have to ask ourselves how long God will pour His Spirit out for prophecy (by "prophecy" I mean that of 1st Cor.14:3). The answer is that God will pour His Spirit out for the Church age. The Church age can be deduced by various means, but we have sure indicator in Acts.15.14-16. The Church age ends when Israel is restored. And Israel's chastisement is "2 days" (Hos.6:2). After examining all the "days" of the Bible, only one fits - when a day equals a thousand years. Thus, the prophecy starts with Pentecost and the Spirit for ministry is given consistently and continuously for the Church age of two thousand years. Then, before the Millennium (the great day of the Lord), we can expect signs in the sky and distress. These specific signs, to my best knowledge are connected with Armageddon. To your second question I judge that the meaning of "at hand", or "near" is that it is nearby. It does not mean drawing near. It is the same with the Kingdom. John Baptist and our Lord Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. That meant that it was reachable if a man stretched. But if the man did not stretch it would stay near and not come. Peter, by using "at hand" here shows that it could come at any time but needed "the hand" to reach out for it. What is often missed is that to all men the Lord teaches that He could come suddenly. All men except TWO. The Lord told Paul and Peter that they would die martyrs. So you can imagine the juggling of words that these two engaged in. They had to teach the immanent coming of Christ, but allow for them not being dead yet. I like this post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2022 13 hours ago, Montana Marv said: The Rapture is not foretold in Matt 24 at all. All about the 2nd Coming. The mystery of the Church/Bride had not even been revealed yet. It is Christ coming to establish His Kingdom and to have Israel be reinstated in their Land. Duet 30:3 is about Israel being given their fortunes back as they dwell in the Land during the Mill. Why do I say this: The Churches/Brides reward is heavenly, not earthly. Israels reward is fortunes while in their Land. Nothing about the Rapture of the Church in 1 Thes 4:13--- going at the 2nd Coming. It give the process, not the time. In Christ Montana Marv I disagree slightly. I think Paul is clear on timing. The rapture will come JUST before Wrath. I believe we could say the rapture will come just before the DAY of His wrath. This is further proven by John seeing the just raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal that starts the Day of His wrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,051 Content Per Day: 3.31 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2022 17 hours ago, WilliamL said: The evidence is found summed up in these passages: John 5:25 “Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 1 Peter 4:6 ...the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Ephesians 4:9 Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. In sum, Jesus descended into Hades, preached the gospel to the dead, and those who received it could no longer be bound below in Hades. These of course included the faithful OT saints in the place of the dead called Abraham's bosom. Evidence .. yes, but you reached no conclusion. Be careful though to put those verses into their context because Jesus did not go to Hades to preach to the dead. The text reads 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are (now) dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. The sense is that they heard the gospel when alive ... and are NOW dead, so the end of the sentence is "But LIVE according to God." They could not LIVE according to God as dead men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 1 hour ago, iamlamad said: I disagree slightly. I think Paul is clear on timing. The rapture will come JUST before Wrath. I believe we could say the rapture will come just before the DAY of His wrath. This is further proven by John seeing the just raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal that starts the Day of His wrath. No time or position of time Is given for the Rapture in Scripture. If there was Jesus would never have said only God the Father knows of this time. We are to watch and be ready and As in the days of Noah before the flood are the only clues we have as to timing. And they really do not give us much information. Yet we are in the days of Noah before the flood now. Same environment. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted June 28, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.07 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Montana Marv said: No time or position of time Is given for the Rapture in Scripture. If there was Jesus would never have said only God the Father knows of this time. We are to watch and be ready and As in the days of Noah before the flood are the only clues we have as to timing. And they really do not give us much information. Yet we are in the days of Noah before the flood now. Same environment. In Christ Montana Marv Jesus comment that no man knows the day or the hour was, in context, about His coming to Armageddon. However, if people wish to apply this to His rapture coming, I guess they can. But notice that Jesus was specific about "day" and "hour." Paul gives us TIMING information (in relation to other events) in 1 Thes. 5. I agree, Paul does not tell us a day or an hour, or even a season or a year. What Paul does tell us is that the rapture will come just before God's wrath. This gives us a position in relation to the start of God's wrath. From Revelation we know that His wrath will begin with the Day of His wrath and that at the 6th seal. Therefore, on Revelation's timeline, the rapture will be before the 6th seal. Also on Revelation's timeline, the rapture must come after the 5th seal or after the final church age martyr is killed. That pinpoints the rapture timing as coming between the 5th and 6th seals. As a clincher, John then saw the just raptured church as that great crowd too large to number just after the 6th seal. Since we probably won't know when that final church age martyr will be killed, and since we will be on the way UP when God's wrath begins, we still won't know when. As you said, we must be READY. That is probably why one Christian forum is called "Rapture Ready." I disagree with you on "Noah." Jesus' point in bringing up Noah was about the suddenness of their destruction. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Notice the preposition "for..." It could be "because..." Jesus is telling us His purpose in bringing up Noah. His point is well taken: they were living life to the fullest right up until the rain began to fall. Those that lived far from Noah probably had no warning. They woke up one morning thinking it would be another day like yesterday, but before the day was out, they were gone. According to Paul, people will be doing the same: living life. But suddenly the saints are caught up and the world is caught in sudden destruction. Certainly many will die in this "suddenly," but many will survive to live through - or part way through, the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted June 29, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 29, 2022 3 hours ago, iamlamad said: Jesus comment that no man knows the day or the hour was, in context, about His coming to Armageddon. However, if people wish to apply this to His rapture coming, I guess they can. But notice that Jesus was specific about "day" and "hour." No, it is the Bridegroom coming. Matt 25:1-13 The ten virgins were waiting..v6 -At Mid-night a call came that the Bridegroom was coming.. v. 13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: Paul gives us TIMING information (in relation to other events) in 1 Thes. 5. I agree, Paul does not tell us a day or an hour, or even a season or a year. What Paul does tell us is that the rapture will come just before God's wrath. This gives us a position in relation to the start of God's wrath. From Revelation we know that His wrath will begin with the Day of His wrath and that at the 6th seal. Therefore, on Revelation's timeline, the rapture will be before the 6th seal. No. Paul says that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Those believers he was talking to at that time and future generation who reads it. This is about election. Either eternal life or the wrath of eternal death. Nothing to do with the 6th Seal. 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: Also on Revelation's timeline, the rapture must come after the 5th seal or after the final church age martyr is killed. That pinpoints the rapture timing as coming between the 5th and 6th seals. As a clincher, John then saw the just raptured church as that great crowd too large to number just after the 6th seal. No these are martyrs during the 70th Week. They ask for their blood to be avenged. The Brides blood was taken care of at the Cross. Stephen the first martyr asked for forgiveness for those who were to kill him, as we should. These 70th Week saints ask for vengeance. 180 degrees of what we are to do. 4 hours ago, iamlamad said: 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. There will be no eating and drinking, marrying and giving to marriage during the S. T. and B judgments. Total Chaos. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted June 29, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 29, 2022 14 hours ago, Montana Marv said: 2 separate events. Rapture first. 2nd Coming is after the 70th week. Not anywhere near each other. No correlation between the two. This is where Post Trib fails. Invention by some man in the past. Prolonged by Gentry and others like him. Those who tie the two together are in error. In Christ Montana Marv It's your opinion they are two different comings, and that opinion is "wrong" (The Second Coming) Matthew 24:29-30KJV 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (The Second Coming) 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted June 29, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, AdHoc said: You conveniently leave out a part of 1s Thessalonians 4:13-18, and you rip the verse on resurrection and judgement out of their contexts. Furthermore, you at no time defined "the Last day". 1st Corinthians 15:22-26 give an order in resurrection. This order is upheld in Revelation 20 where dead martyrs are resurrected to reign but "the rest of the dead do not live until 1,000 years is over". Then you do not emphasis, in 1st Thessalonian 4 that our Lord does not COME. He is PRESENT in the clouds and the saints GO to meet Him. It is NOT the SECOND COMING of Jesus but "OUR GATHERING TO HIM IN THE CLOUDS". As I said in an earlier posting, you never draw the argument to its end. With one liners, innuendo and verses ripped out of context you build your version of events. The above example is just one. Sad - because I think you are a fervent brother. We Strongly Disagree 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 is nothing more than the second coming and Last Day resurrection, clear and simple Jesus Is The Lord Edited June 29, 2022 by truth7t7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts