A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[Montana Marv]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. v. 14 - and the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us.

So the total of the Word (all Scripture) was established in the beginning.  Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21.  Now what does Matt 24:36 say - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. v. 42 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.  Continuing with Chp 25 - The Bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.  At midnight (the last hour) the cry rang out. Here is the Bridegroom, come out to meet Him.  25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you not know the day or hour.

So Scripture gives no precise date for the Rapture.  It says to Keep Watch.  It does not say or hint; Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Pre-wrath, or Post-trib.  Scripture does not refer to these dates.  Watch and be ready.  As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now.  Which is the only position which cannot be calculated.  Pre-trib.  One week from now, or one month or six months.

But Scripture says it is Post-trib, don't believe it, it is not there. No Scripture.  In the beginning was the Word, the full and total Word.  And Jesus, the Word, which is all Scripture states that only God the Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Bridegroom.  People get it into your head that this day and hour is not in Scripture.  Don't quote Scripture; ignorance can be bliss.  Yet the 5 foolish virgins went out to buy more oil and missed the Bridegroom. Did they have the mark of the beast on them so they could buy and sell, I think not. So it must happen before the mark of the beast is instituted. Yet Rev 5:6b - A quart of wheat for a days wage, and three quarts of barley for a days wage, and do not damage the oil and the wine.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  And v. 8b - They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  Nothing of the S. T. or B. judgements is like in the days of Noah.  The time of the mark of the beast is not like in the days of Noah.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Keras]

On 6/19/2022 at 5:52 PM, Montana Marv said:

As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now. 

What happened to the antediluvian peoples? They all drowned. Only Noah and his family survived the watery disaster by doing as God told them.. 

This time the Lord will correct the once again; untenable situation by fire. 2 Peter 3:7  But many people will survive and the final outcome is described from Revelation 6:12 t0 Revelation 19:10 

People point out where we are not appointed to God's wrath, but that is because it won't be directed at Christians and the Lord promises us protection. Isaiah 43:2   THERE WILL BE NO RAPTURE REMOVAL. 

[Montana Marv]

14 hours ago, Keras said:

What happened to the antediluvian peoples? They all drowned. Only Noah and his family survived the watery disaster by doing as God told them.. 

This time the Lord will correct the once again; untenable situation by fire. 2 Peter 3:7  But many people will survive and the final outcome is described from Revelation 6:12 t0 Revelation 19:10 

People point out where we are not appointed to God's wrath, but that is because it won't be directed at Christians and the Lord promises us protection. Isaiah 43:2   THERE WILL BE NO RAPTURE REMOVAL. 

Then Jesus is not making any room for us in heaven, and we will not be where Jesus is. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv n

[missmuffet]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:52 PM, Montana Marv said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. v. 14 - and the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us.

So the total of the Word (all Scripture) was established in the beginning.  Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21.  Now what does Matt 24:36 say - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. v. 42 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.  Continuing with Chp 25 - The Bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.  At midnight (the last hour) the cry rang out. Here is the Bridegroom, come out to meet Him.  25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you not know the day or hour.

So Scripture gives no precise date for the Rapture.  It says to Keep Watch.  It does not say or hint; Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Pre-wrath, or Post-trib.  Scripture does not refer to these dates.  Watch and be ready.  As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now.  Which is the only position which cannot be calculated.  Pre-trib.  One week from now, or one month or six months.

But Scripture says it is Post-trib, don't believe it, it is not there. No Scripture.  In the beginning was the Word, the full and total Word.  And Jesus, the Word, which is all Scripture states that only God the Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Bridegroom.  People get it into your head that this day and hour is not in Scripture.  Don't quote Scripture; ignorance can be bliss.  Yet the 5 foolish virgins went out to buy more oil and missed the Bridegroom. Did they have the mark of the beast on them so they could buy and sell, I think not. So it must happen before the mark of the beast is instituted. Yet Rev 5:6b - A quart of wheat for a days wage, and three quarts of barley for a days wage, and do not damage the oil and the wine.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  And v. 8b - They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  Nothing of the S. T. or B. judgements is like in the days of Noah.  The time of the mark of the beast is not like in the days of Noah.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The rapture of the Church is imminent and could happen at any time. Nothing else needs to happen before the rapture. 

[Revelation Man]

On 6/19/2022 at 12:52 AM, Montana Marv said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. v. 14 - and the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us.

So the total of the Word (all Scripture) was established in the beginning.  Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21.  Now what does Matt 24:36 say - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. v. 42 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.  Continuing with Chp 25 - The Bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.  At midnight (the last hour) the cry rang out. Here is the Bridegroom, come out to meet Him.  25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you not know the day or hour.

So Scripture gives no precise date for the Rapture.  It says to Keep Watch.  It does not say or hint; Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Pre-wrath, or Post-trib.  Scripture does not refer to these dates.  Watch and be ready.  As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now.  Which is the only position which cannot be calculated.  Pre-trib.  One week from now, or one month or six months.

But Scripture says it is Post-trib, don't believe it, it is not there. No Scripture.  In the beginning was the Word, the full and total Word.  And Jesus, the Word, which is all Scripture states that only God the Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Bridegroom.  People get it into your head that this day and hour is not in Scripture.  Don't quote Scripture; ignorance can be bliss.  Yet the 5 foolish virgins went out to buy more oil and missed the Bridegroom. Did they have the mark of the beast on them so they could buy and sell, I think not. So it must happen before the mark of the beast is instituted. Yet Rev 5:6b - A quart of wheat for a days wage, and three quarts of barley for a days wage, and do not damage the oil and the wine.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  And v. 8b - They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  Nothing of the S. T. or B. judgements is like in the days of Noah.  The time of the mark of the beast is not like in the days of Noah.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Excellent post. Its just common sense that only Pre Trib can fit the TIMING PATTERNS or as I like to say the timing tells. When the Anti-Christ (E.U. President) makes his FIRM AGREEMENT with Israel and THE MANY (Mediterranean Sea Region nations) we know there will be exactly 1260 days from that point until both the Wrath of God falls and the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering in the Middle of the week. We know that Jesus will show up 2520 days after the 7 Year Agreement and 1260 days after the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering. So, the Second coming is a KNOWN EVENT, as is the Day of the Lord. Nothing can be imminent except a Pre Trib Rapture. Nothing can be a day nor hour being secretive except the pre trib rapture.

We can now the season, but not the day nor the hour, which really refers to the Luna Moon cycles which brought in the new moon which brought in the New Year once a year, which always ended the Harvest via a LAST TRUMP. So, the Feast of Trumps ends the Harvest and Jesus' Trump in Rev. 4:1 end the Church Age Harvest of souls. The reason Jesus said we can't know the day nor hour was the lunar moon has phases, and the new moon had the possibility of coming in over a two day period of time. They thus sent two witnesses to the mountains to spy on the moon, when they saw the new moon come in the sent back word, the Trumps started sounding, they blew the Shofar in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times then the LAST TRUMP blew longer and louder than the other 99 and the New Year was upon them and the Harvest (THINK Church Age) was officially ended.

It all jibes, but we have to put in the grunt work and be open to facts, even when the makes us change our fast and true positions on things. 

[AdHoc]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:52 AM, Montana Marv said:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. v. 14 - and the Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us.

So the total of the Word (all Scripture) was established in the beginning.  Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21.  Now what does Matt 24:36 say - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. v. 42 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.  Continuing with Chp 25 - The Bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.  At midnight (the last hour) the cry rang out. Here is the Bridegroom, come out to meet Him.  25:13 - Therefore keep watch, because you not know the day or hour.

So Scripture gives no precise date for the Rapture.  It says to Keep Watch.  It does not say or hint; Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Pre-wrath, or Post-trib.  Scripture does not refer to these dates.  Watch and be ready.  As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now.  Which is the only position which cannot be calculated.  Pre-trib.  One week from now, or one month or six months.

But Scripture says it is Post-trib, don't believe it, it is not there. No Scripture.  In the beginning was the Word, the full and total Word.  And Jesus, the Word, which is all Scripture states that only God the Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Bridegroom.  People get it into your head that this day and hour is not in Scripture.  Don't quote Scripture; ignorance can be bliss.  Yet the 5 foolish virgins went out to buy more oil and missed the Bridegroom. Did they have the mark of the beast on them so they could buy and sell, I think not. So it must happen before the mark of the beast is instituted. Yet Rev 5:6b - A quart of wheat for a days wage, and three quarts of barley for a days wage, and do not damage the oil and the wine.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  And v. 8b - They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.  Nothing like in the days of Noah.  Nothing of the S. T. or B. judgements is like in the days of Noah.  The time of the mark of the beast is not like in the days of Noah.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

It is interesting that Paul prayed for the Thessalonian saints that they would be preserved "whole" unto the "coming of their Lord". The subject had been whether the dead saints would suffer any disadvantage at the Rapture. A "whole" man who has joined together body, soul and spirit (1st Thess.5:23) is a living man. Death tears us apart. At death the spirit returns to God, the soul goes to Hades under the earth and the body rots back to the elements. So Paul taught, and prayed, that the Thessalonians, at around 60 AD would be preserved LIVING for the Rapture. Thus, there is no time bracket for the Rapture. Or is there ... ???

The problem that Paul had to contend with in 2nd Thessalonians was that the persecution was s hot and heavy, that some saints were teaching that the Great Tribulation had started. And if there was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture then the Thessalonians had missed it. So Paul outlines a few things that indicate that the "gathering unto the Lord" needed some markers fulfilled. Let's look at the text of 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-8 

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

1.  The first indicator is apostasy. The Greek word we render "apostasy" means falling away from an elevated place. It can only mean the Church. Only the Church has a high position and does fall. Five of the seven Churches of 96 AD are apostate. Every Church that Paul wrote to except the Thessalonians and Philadelphia had major problems. So the first indicator is a falling away of the Church. Revelation 2 and 3 show that this was already the case in 96 AD.

2.  The second indicator is the "REVEALING" of the Beast. I emphasize "Revealing" because it does not say RULING. The Beast, who is one of seven dead kings, and who must come out of the abyss in resurrection will have to prove himself before the ten kings who give him all their power. Thus, there will be a period, maybe even some years, while the Beast proves himself before he starts his seven-year rule.

3.  The next thing is that some company of people, or some element, that hinders the Beast, must be removed. Bible scholars have studied this at length and are divided. One camp says that it must be the Holy Spirit. But it is obvious that the Holy Spirit is working on earth right up to the resurrection of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. Another camp says that it is the Church. But this cannot be. If the Church becomes apostate, it is Salt that has lost its flavor and can hinder nothing. The only viable thing is the Man-Child of Revelation 12. But many scholars put the Man-Child as Christ. Other's peg him as the Overcomers. Let's not dispute this now, but there is something or someone that hinders the Beast and this must be removed.

Point 1. is accomplished. Point 2. is not. And point 3. might be. The astute student of prophecy will know that we most likely will glimps the Beast before the Rapture. This has not yet happened. But what is sure is that the date of the Rapture is a mystery only known by the Father. It is a very clever move by God. It will divide the diligent Christians from the slothful. And the longer the Lord delays, the greater will be the falling away.

Lastly, it must be observed that at least FOUR scriptures give a Pre-Tribulation Rapture as a REWARD. In Philippians 3 the "Upward Call" is a PRIZE. In Luke 21:35-36 one must be "accounted worthy". In Revelation 3:10 you must "keep the word of Christ's patience" and in Revelation 18:4 you must not be engaged in the world's economic system. At least four scriptures show Christians passing through the Great Tribulation. Revelation 7:9-17 a great company connected with Christ will "come out of the THE Great Tribulation". Revelation 12 shows a great number "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" in the wilderness for 1260 days. Revelation 13:7 has the Beast making war with the saints and Overcoming them. Revelation 18:4 promises those Christians who join hands with the world economic system will receive her plagues"

[Keras]

18 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Then Jesus is not making any room for us in heaven, and we will not be where Jesus is. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv n

Those who pass the test to come; 1 Peter 4:12, will be with Jesus in His Millennium reign. Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 5:9-10

Jesus never said humans will go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, +

[branchesofHim]

On 6/18/2022 at 10:52 PM, Montana Marv said:

As in the days of Noah is our only clue.  And we are there now. 

Good point. Consider the feasts of Israel in the timeline. 

2 Peter 3:[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

And consider the Psalm which speaks of the same.

Psalm 102:[16] When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.
[17] He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.
[18] This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
[19] For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;
[20] To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;
[21] To declare the name of the LORD in Zion, and his praise in Jerusalem;
[22] When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD.
[23] He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days.
[24] I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
[25] Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
[26] They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
[27] But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
[28] The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.

Edited June 22, 2022 by branchesofHim
Additional reference

[WilliamL]

On 6/18/2022 at 11:52 PM, Montana Marv said:

And Jesus, the Word, which is all Scripture states that only God the Father knows the day and hour of the coming of the Bridegroom.

He stated this in present tense back in the first century AD. Too many people therefore presume that it also refers to our day; but Jesus never said that. He specifically did not say, "no one will ever know;" that is, future tense.

Beware of presumptions.

As for Noah, God told him -- and not anyone else, outside of his family at least -- seven days in advance when the Flood would come. Something to think about.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

He stated this in present tense back in the first century AD. Too many people therefore presume that it also refers to our day; but Jesus never said that. He specifically did not say, "no one will ever know;" that is, future tense.

Beware of presumptions.

As for Noah, God told him -- and not anyone else, outside of his family at least -- seven days in advance when the Flood would come. Something to think about.

The thing is that "in the beginning" was/is also presence tense.  The full and totality of all Scripture/Word was established "in the beginning' and none after the fact.  So when Jesus states that only God the Father knows when the Bridegroom will come. That is solid proof that the time of the Rapture/coming of the Bridegroom is not revealed in Scripture.  If it was, then All Scripture was not established "in the beginning".  It becomes transitory.

Yet, Noah took over 100 years to build the Ark. He was ridiculed for over 100 years.  He was given plenty of notice.  The 7 days was to get his house in order so to speak.  Remember it was God who shut the door.

If someone can give a date or season that pinpoints the Coming of the Bridegroom, other than in the days of Noah before the flood, then that someone believes in a transitory Scripture.  If one says that the Rapture and the Second Coming are at the same time or near to each other, then Scripture becomes transitory.  A transitory Scripture/Word cannot be from the beginning.

In Christ

Montana Marv