Genesis Questions

[kwikphilly]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And you are welcome to believe what you do.

Concerning this issue, I believe what I can prove from the Bible. And I can easily show from the Bible that certain passages contradict each other; for one example, with respect to the timing of events of Crucifixion week. Anyone who has closely studied and compared the different Gospel accounts knows this.

And I believe that "infallible contradictions" is an oxymoron. Nothing personal.

Not taken personally,no worries❤️

[JimmyB]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And you are welcome to believe what you do.

Concerning this issue, I believe what I can prove from the Bible. And I can easily show from the Bible that certain passages contradict each other; for one example, with respect to the timing of events of Crucifixion week. Anyone who has closely studied and compared the different Gospel accounts knows this.

And I believe that "infallible contradictions" is an oxymoron. Nothing personal.

If you try to understand the Bible as factual reporting (like modern news broadcasts) you will find contradictions.  However, that is not the way the "books" were written.  They were created to communicate God's spiritual truths to humanity.  Chronology is not important; truth and wisdom are.

[JimmyB]

22 hours ago, tim_from_pa said:

...and there's that nagging question of distance divided by the velocity of light which you circumvented.  We are looking back in time at stars.  Like the mile markers on a highway when one does the average "mile per minute" travel we can indeed tell time by the mile markers.  The galaxy is vast enough to take light 100,000 years to travel that, then if everything was here only 6000 years you could not see the milky way.  While it would be possible for a galaxy to only be that old, we would not see all of it in other words.  Thus, if we see light from 100,000 years ago, then it must have existed then to see it now.  I can't prove it still exists, but it did then.  

Actually, God created Adam on the 6th day.  I have no idea what was running around before then although I am approaching this merely from an age related stance and not biology.  As for who is lying, it's not a matter of one trying to lie and the other being truthful. Rather, I am merely pointing out evidence that the universe is of a vast age.  if I know the distance of something, and divide by the speed of light, then that is the time is takes to reach one.  So I'd be lying if I said anything else.  And God would be dishonest (putting it mildly) if He created something, and then by the same laws made the outcome appear other than what it is. That's confusion.

Abraham was promised numerous seed as the dust of the earth, the sand of the seashore and stars of heaven.  The first two represent physical and national descendants.  The latter are those of faith and are compared to eternity.  So what do the stars represent?  Vastness of space and an eternal nature; that's why that analogy was used.

 

The days of creation are not literal, 24-hour days.  As I said in my post immediately preceding this one, the Bible teaches spiritual truths.  You can't understand it by applying scientific or temporal rules, as it's not a science text nor journalism.

The first verses teach us the spiritual realities of time and the importance of the elements of life.  (The primordial earth already existed as a primordial mass.) Then there was light and darkness, which divided the day into two segments (the Jews believe that darkness begins the day).  Then the sea was created, a vital part of the ancient world, and land was created separately.  (It would make no sense to have the sea evolve from the land.)  Then came vegetation, which of course required land, but there were no sun, moon, and stars.  Then the lights were created to divide the day and night. But light already existed!  This verse alone should show you that the lesson is spiritual not scientific.  There is a priority of importance here!  Then came living creatures, and finally, humanity.  This clearly establishes a spiritual order of importance in creation.

One can get into serious problems trying to understand this as a science lesson instead of the spiritual lesson that it clearly is.

[tim_from_pa]

22 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

The days of creation are not literal, 24-hour days.  As I said in my post immediately preceding this one, the Bible teaches spiritual truths.  You can't understand it by applying scientific or temporal rules, as it's not a science text nor journalism.

The first verses teach us the spiritual realities of time and the importance of the elements of life.  (The primordial earth already existed as a primordial mass.) Then there was light and darkness, which divided the day into two segments (the Jews believe that darkness begins the day).  Then the sea was created, a vital part of the ancient world, and land was created separately.  (It would make no sense to have the sea evolve from the land.)  Then came vegetation, which of course required land, but there were no sun, moon, and stars.  Then the lights were created to divide the day and night. But light already existed!  This verse alone should show you that the lesson is spiritual not scientific.  There is a priority of importance here!  Then came living creatures, and finally, humanity.  This clearly establishes a spiritual order of importance in creation.

One can get into serious problems trying to understand this as a science lesson instead of the spiritual lesson that it clearly is.

I can agree with you there, i.e. the spiritual side and also time frames.  My previous posts were throwing around the age of the earth/space without getting into the biological science which is not my forte.  However, you bring up an important point. We all can debate all day and night how the bible is to be interpreted, but as Sir Isaac Newton believed,  one could see the marvels of God by nature, and the mind of God by his creation.  Now which is more apt to be misunderstood?  A simple distance and velocity (of light) problem or the bible?  The bible needs the Spirit of God to understand rightly.  Reality as manifested is the creation of God and thus God would not take something in His creation and make it look like something else.  That would be deceptive.  Thus, I come to the conclusion that if (or since) the bible is the Word of God, then something must be misunderstood within the biblical interpretation.  What some of our friends here are doing are claiming they understand the bible better (if nothing else, by faith) and we somehow misunderstand simple laws.  I don't think so nor does that make any sense.  No, the velocity of light, even if it does change or time warps or whatever does not compress billions of years of space down to 6000 years.  We can't even fit all the stars in this small distance without causing an unimaginable amount of energy.  

[JimmyB]

Thinking more about this subject...

Genesis 1:2, "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

This clearly says that the earth existed in primordial form before creation.

What does "without form and void" mean?  How does anything exist without form?

Also, there were "waters", implying that the primordial earth was the seas.

I'm interested in what others think of these concepts.

[kwikphilly]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And you are welcome to believe what you do.

Concerning this issue, I believe what I can prove from the Bible. And I can easily show from the Bible that certain passages contradict each other; for one example, with respect to the timing of events of Crucifixion week. Anyone who has closely studied and compared the different Gospel accounts knows this.

And I believe that "infallible contradictions" is an oxymoron. Nothing personal.

Blessings Brother 

Im just curious,I can't imagine anyone making such a statement as" Infallible contradictions" certainly it wasn't I( if somehow I made such an absurd comment then I must see if I'm in early stages of dementia)???!!!

 Anyhow, again I  can & will only speak for myself ... I have already said with all of my heart & mind I Believe the Written Word of God is Infallible,therefore there are( I see) no contradictions

 I am curious though, why does it matter so much if anyone does not agree with what your understanding is, to go so far to say" anyone who has closely studied & compared the different Gorspel accounts knows this" ?

What this insinuates ( imo) is that either " they" have not closely studied & compared the different Gorspel accounts .... Isn't that a bit presumptuous!I would never question that you have studied God's Word sinply because I consider you my Brother in Christ & you have said this is so- regardless of your conclusions.

You do not know what my conclusions are & yet if they are not the same as yours..   see what I'm saying Brother?

I have studied the Gospels & compared and researched in my years but I see four different people telling their account   ..... I don't think the context or rather the importance is on the timing of the events but the fact that this did actually happen,don't you?So,does it really matter,is it contradiction or different perspective or recall?

  God Bless & thanks for your contributions

[JimmyB]

23 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Brother 

Im just curious,I can't imagine anyone making such a statement as" Infallible contradictions" certainly it wasn't I( if somehow I made such an absurd comment then I must see if I'm in early stages of dementia)???!!!

 Anyhow, again I  can & will only speak for myself ... I have already said with all of my heart & mind I Believe the Written Word of God is Infallible,therefore there are( I see) no contradictions

 I am curious though, why does it matter so much if anyone does not agree with what your understanding is, to go so far to say" anyone who has closely studied & compared the different Gorspel accounts knows this" ?

What this insinuates ( imo) is that either " they" have not closely studied & compared the different Gorspel accounts .... Isn't that a bit presumptuous!I would never question that you have studied God's Word sinply because I consider you my Brother in Christ & you have said this is so- regardless of your conclusions.

You do not know what my conclusions are & yet if they are not the same as yours..   see what I'm saying Brother?

I have studied the Gospels & compared and researched in my years but I see four different people telling their account   ..... I don't think the context or rather the importance is on the timing of the events but the fact that this did actually happen,don't you?So,does it really matter,is it contradiction or different perspective or recall?

  God Bless & thanks for your contributions

I agree with you.  The four gospels were written by four different men at different times with on purpose: to communicate spiritual truths.  They are not similar to Western journalism.  They are meant to illuminate the concepts God wants us to have, not to report what literally happened.  For example, Matthew 17:20, "He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” and Mark 11:23, “Truly I tell you, if anyone say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them."

 

So, what exactly did Jesus say?  a) Did He say that the mountain will move or b) that it will be thrown into the sea?  It doesn't matter, as this isn't modern journalism.  Beyond that, was Jesus talking about a literal mountain or an obstacle in our lives?  I believe that He was increasing our faith by declaring that no "mountain" in our lives is beyond our faith.

BTW, the above has nothing to do with the OP: Genesis questions.  Shall we return to that subject?

[JohnD]

11 minutes ago, JimmyB said:

I agree with you.  The four gospels were written by four different men at different times with on purpose: to communicate spiritual truths.  They are not similar to Western journalism.  They are meant to illuminate the concepts God wants us to have, not to report what literally happened.  For example, Matthew 17:20, "He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” and Mark 11:23, “Truly I tell you, if anyone say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them."

 

So, what exactly did Jesus say?  a) Did He say that the mountain will move or b) that it will be thrown into the sea?  It doesn't matter, as this isn't modern journalism.  Beyond that, was Jesus talking about a literal mountain or an obstacle in our lives?  I believe that He was increasing our faith by declaring that no "mountain" in our lives is beyond our faith.

BTW, the above has nothing to do with the OP: Genesis questions.  Shall we return to that subject?

Remember also Jesus was standing on or near Temple Mount.

And the sea is prophetically a symbol of humanity.

It could mean the current state of temple mount (no temple and the land itself is occupied by Gentiles and pagan mosques).

Or it could mean the Jewish people themselves would be cast into the rest of the world in exile / wandering.

Just saying.

[JohnD]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:58 PM, branchesofHim said:

Do we have all of the scriptures ever recorded in the earth for man to know God and His ways? And are the scriptures we have the only ones inspired by God?

Yes.

The issuing of the Word of God and it's oversight and it's only accurate interpretation is that of the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21 / John 16:13).

[JohnD]

On 7/31/2022 at 4:58 PM, branchesofHim said:

What is missing in these first few verses? Between Genesis 1:1 and 2 we already have conflicting information based on the rest of scripture that we have about the character of the Creator as seen in Christ Jesus (the express image of His person)

What may have been telecoped in any passage of scripture is accounted for in the rest of scripture (Job 38 comes to mind as does Isaiah 44:24 / John 1:3 / Ezekiel 28 / Revelation 12:7ff etc).

There is no gap as some theorize (to promote / accommodate the false theory of evolution). There was a spirit realm created first and then the physical.