What if we are wrong about......

[Keras]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev. 21:3- And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,

Rev. 21:10- And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Yes; God comes out of heaven, to dwell with mankind for Eternity. Revelation 21:3

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Keras said:

This idea is not Biblical.

Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Shalom, Keras.

Actually, Heaven is NOT "God's home." God is OMNIPRESENT! There is nowhere where He is not! It's the New Jerusalem that is "God's tent":

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou thronou = "out of-the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: hee skeenee = "the tent") of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

4633 skeenee σκηνή, ῆς, ἡ (skay-nay'). Apparently akin to skeuos and skia; a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):
-- habitation, tabernacle.

But, I understand what you are trying to say.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.

Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed.

This assumes that there IS a separation between "heaven" and earth. However, when one realizes that the word for "heaven" is the Greek word "ouranos," then they're not as separated as one might think.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (Greek: ouranon kainon kai geen kaineen = "a-sky new and an-earth new"): for the first heaven and the first earth (Greek: ho gar prootos ouranos kai hee prootee gee = "the <-> for first sky and the first earth") were passed away; and there was no more sea.

The word "ouranos" means the "sky," but we would also give it the name "atmosphere" today. The air of the atmosphere is most concentrated close to the ground, and it thins out as one ascends into the sky. It's this ATMOSPHERE which we find made new for the New Earth.

But again, I agree with what you are saying in general, for verse 3 goes on to say, "he [God] will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.

Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

Yes, and I like to add Luke 1:30-33 where Gavri'eel ("Gabriel") says,

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

15 hours ago, Keras said:

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on earth.  Revelation 21 to 22 

While I quite agree with you on the general truths here, "spiritual" should not be used for a "world," or "realm," or "dimension," or whatever! The word "spiritual" does NOT mean something "not physical." Paul (in 1 Corinthians 15:44-46) used the two Greek words psuchikos and pneumatikos regarding a body (sooma). They were TRANSLATED in the KJV as "natural" and "spiritual," respectively, but their MEANINGS are "air-breathing" and "air-blasting (like a wind)." These adjectives come from their noun counterparts, "psuchee" (an "air-breathing creature") and "pneuma" (a "wind").

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Will those who will live with Jesus during His Millennial reign, have spiritual bodies? No, because there will be many still alive at His Return, Matthew 24:31 and when He was resurrected, He still ate and drank in a body suited for earthly living. John 21:12

You're right about His body. I like to add Luke 24:39 where He tells His disciples, "39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

He then eats before them where they met with Him.

However, He is a body of "flesh and bones," which is indeed a "spiritual body!" That is, "an air-blasting body!" This is talking about His STRENGTH, not the composition of His body!

When He comes, we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is! So, during His reign, both during the 1,000-year Millennium and in the Eternal State on the New Earth, we too shall be living with Yeshua` ("Jesus") as "air-blasting bodies" or "spiritual bodies."

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Revelation 20:4-6…the souls of those who were killed for their faith in God, were resurrected and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years… On earth!

Absolutely correct.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

 People who think there is a rapture to heaven, where they believe they will have heavenly, spiritual bodies have failed to understand that God’s purpose from the beginning of humankind, was to establish a place and a people who would display His glory and to share eternal life with Christ. Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 22:14

Again, this is correct.

15 hours ago, Keras said:

For now, we face daily challenges in our lives and on the world scene, but the knowledge that a regenerated earth is coming should reassure us and give us the right perspective. There is a purpose in all that happens, the injustices and suffering will not last, they are part of the testing process we all must go through.  God will make everything right, rewarding those who stood firm and trusted Him in all the trials and temptations of this world.  1 Corinthians 16:13

The people who will live with Jesus in the Millennium period, are being prepared now. Remember, it may not be the proud and self-promoting people who will be chosen, it’s the meek who will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5  Those people will then be under the benevolent government of the resurrected saints, with Jesus as King. 

Will it be boring to be good all the time? It is wrong to assume sin is exciting and righteousness isn’t. That is the Devil’s lie, his basic strategy, but the reality is that sin robs us of fulfilment, sin doesn’t expand life, it shrinks it and sin’s emptiness inevitably leads to boredom. Where there’s fulfilment, where there’s beauty, where we won’t have to struggle for existence and as God’s mysteries unfold to us, that is the ultimate human utopia: ON EARTH.                     

Well said! Right on the money!

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Keras said:

Yes; God comes out of heaven, to dwell with mankind for Eternity. Revelation 21:3

Shalom, Keras.

Right! And, we can push the envelope a little farther still: Because the New Jerusalem "comes out of heaven," that is, it "comes out of the sky or the atmosphere," there's no location between the air and the ground, meaning that the New Jerusalem shall LAND upon the New Earth!

This only makes sense in light of the other facts of the New Jerusalem:

1. It lies upon the earth. (Rev. 21:16)
2. It has sides that face east, north, south, and west. (Rev. 21:13)
3. The kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. (Rev. 21:24, 26)
4. The River of the Water of Life (which flows from the Throne of God) flows down the middle of the street of the city, which presumably go to the twelve gates of the city. Thus, the river would be "parted into TWELVE heads" each flowing into a different part of the earth, in twelve different directions, three on each side of the city. (Rev. 21:21, 25; 22:1-2)

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev. 21:3- And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,

Rev. 21:10- And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Shalom, Uriah.

Well said! Remember, though, that the Greek word "ouranos," translated as "heaven," actually means the "sky." One's perspective, IMO, should not be so nebulous to mean something more.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:00 PM, Marilyn C said:

`However when He, the Spirit of TRUTH, has come HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH;...` (John 16: 13)

It is the HOLY SPIRIT who will guide us into ALL TRUTH. Just look over the centuries and see the different truths that people were often martyred for - salvation, baptism, infilling of the Holy Spirit, etc.

And we are now discussing the last great truth to be clarified - eschatology. So it behoves us to study well God`s word for this is a truth we need to stand on.

Shalom, Marilyn C.

The Scriptures versus theology. For me, it's a no-brainer. I'll take the Scriptures over theology every time. Theologies, like eschatology, are human attempts to make sense of the Scriptures, but the Scriptures can speak for themselves. We don't have to fit the pieces together; we just have to READ the Scriptures and LISTEN to what the author was trying to say to his listeners! Sometimes, we just have to connect the dots between the prophecies, but the fallacy of theology is the introduction of human thought into the dots!

The greatest power of the human mind is the ability to create fantasy - to imagine the possibilities. However, that is also our greatest "Achilles' heel!" Fantasy alone is a lie; until we can find how that fantasy can be made into a reality, we're just play-acting at a possible "truth."

An example of that is the theory of "Schrodinger's cat:  a cat, a flask of poison, and a radioactive source are placed in a sealed box. If an internal monitor (e.g. Geiger counter) detects radioactivity (i.e. a single atom decaying), the flask is shattered, releasing the poison, which kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that, after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when one looks in the box, one sees the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead. This poses the question of when exactly quantum superposition ends and reality resolves into one possibility or the other."

This theory, in turn, gives rise to the concept of multiple dimensions of reality, from which Marvel Comics has taken and created the "Multiverse," which is so prevalent in the superhero movies being created these days.

The problem with all this nonsense is this:

Isaiah 46:1-11 (KJV)

1 "Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast. 2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.

3 "Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb: 4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? 6 They lavish gold out of the bag, and weigh silver in the balance, and hire a goldsmith; and he maketh it a god: they fall down, yea, they worship. 7 They bear him upon the shoulder, they carry him, and set him in his place, and he standeth; from his place shall he not remove: yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer, nor save him out of his trouble!

8 "Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure': 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel (Cyrus the Great) from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

He doesn't create endless possibilities! He declared ONE end from the beginning!

We can imagine all sorts of possible endings, but God sees through all that tangle the ONE path that reality will take!

On 9/9/2022 at 9:00 PM, Marilyn C said:

The two main differences are -

1. We go to heaven.

2. We are on the earth.

Take care to what you believe.

Note: all other great truths were vigorously discussed over the centuries so of course this great truth of eschatology needs discussing, but `speaking the truth in love,` (with the right attitude.) 

The Scriptures do NOT lead to the conclusion "We go to heaven." First, God is omnipresent! There is NOWHERE where God's presence is felt more than anywhere else. We say "omnipresent" or "present everywhere" because of David's words:

Psalm 139:1-10 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

 

Solomon recognized this in the building of the Temple: 

2 Chronicles 6:12-21ff (KJV)

12 And he stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands: 13 For Solomon had made a brasen scaffold, of five cubits long, and five cubits broad, and three cubits high, and had set it in the midst of the court: and upon it he stood, and kneeled down upon his knees before all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven, 14 And said,

"O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven (Hebrew: bashaamayim = "in the skies," where the birds fly, Genesis 1:20), nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 15 Thou which hast kept with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him; and spakest with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day. 

16 "Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, 'There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me.' 17 Now then, O LORD God of Israel, let thy word be verified, which thou hast spoken unto thy servant David.

18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens (Hebrew: uwshmeey hashaamayim = "and-skies of-the-skies") cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built! 19 Have respect therefore to the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and the prayer which thy servant prayeth before thee: 20 That thine eyes may be open upon this house day and night, upon the place whereof thou hast said that thou wouldest put thy name there; to hearken unto the prayer which thy servant prayeth toward this place. 21 Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive. ..."

So, Solomon was explaining that the Temple was NOT in which God would live, but was rather a FOCAL POINT for human beings to use in their prayers to YHWH God! That's why a temple is not found in the New Jerusalem! Yeshua`, the Lamp of God, is the focal point, from whom the glorious light of God shines!

"Heaven" ("shaamayim") was the name given to the "expanse" of air between the waters. The "heavens of the heavens" ("shmeey hashaamayim"), therefore, is the "expanse of the expanse," which occurred after the Flood, when the "waters above the expanse" had rained down upon the earth in Noah's time. Our atmosphere now thins and thins until we have the vaccuum of space. Currently, we know the atmosphere expands to about 600 miles high. Beyond that, there are no effects from the atmosphere on vehicles. Thus, these words, "shmeey hashaamayim," are a pretty good way of explaining "outer space," just called "space" today.

Beyond space, we know of nothing from the Scriptures. These words "shaamayim" and "shmeey hashaamayim" were translated into Greek as the noun "ouranos" ("sky") or "ouranoi" ("skies") in the plural, its adjective form "ouranios," or its adverbial form "ouranothen," and the adjective "epournanios" ("of or belonging to above-the-sky"). The Greek word "mesouraneema" is a neuter noun which adds the "mesos" prefix, together meaning "the middle of the sky," where the birds fly (Rev. 19:17).

Last point: John clearly said in Revelation 21 that the New Jerusalem, which the author of Hebrews tells us is an "epouranios" city, or a city from space, comes down out of the New Sky and LANDS upon the New Earth!

Revelation 21: 1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."