Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

There will be no rapture trip to heaven.  Only living believers will be caught up to the clouds in the air to meet Jesus and all the saints from heaven, all to be given glorified bodies.  Don't know Rosenthal or Van Kampen.  I do know the Bible.

Didn't you read about the first 4 seal judgments?  Judgement by whom?  God.  The judgments begin with the first seal.  The whole deal is God's wrath poured out on the earth.  

You are mistaken about the first seals. The first seal, opened around 32 AD (As soon as Jesus ascended) is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2, 3, and  4 are to represent the DEVIL trying to stop the advance of the gospel into HIS world.

Seal 5, the martyrs of the church age.

Sorry, friend, but none of these are God's wrath. God has allowed the devil to use wars, pestilences, famines and wild animals to try and stop the advance of the gospel. But God limited them in their theater of operation to only one fourth of the earth. That one fourth would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began.

Are you denying John 14? That hints strongly of a trip to heaven. Anyway, where will Jesus be during the 70th week? Would you rather be with Him or would you rather live to face the Beast and be overcome?

God gives everyone a choice: pray that we be found worthy to escape what is coming - or say behind and be overcome. Which will you choose? Are you praying to be found worthy to escape?

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice the last phrase. HOW will be be able to "stand before" Jesus? The same we we "get to live together with Him." the same way "so shall we ever be with the Lord." Paul's rapture IS God's escape plan.

Either people will be found worthy to escape, and they will be caught up in the rapture OR - they won't be found worthy. Could this worthiness have something to do with what we believe? I think it does.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

You certainly have a knack for misreading.  1 Thess 4 is about the Second Advent, as is 2 Thess 2:1, both of which were written by Paul.  And the fact that the singular resurrection of "those who belong to Him" will be at the Second Advent, per 1 Cor 15:23.  So  I will ignore your misunderstanding of what I post.

I think you don't understand the second advent from the THIRD advent. Jesus is coming PRE-TRIB FOR His bride (His second appearance) then will come again seven years later WITH His bride. That will be his THIRD coming.

For confimation:
John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.
There are two verse that show the church returning WITH Jesus.
The marriage and supper are in heaven and in Rev. 19, the saints are all there.
 

I am praying to be found worthy to escape. I highly recommend you do the same!

[AdHoc]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:25 PM, George said:

I for one am glad you are back!

I'm always of the persuasion that you cannot learn anything unless your understanding is challenged.  I don't look at different viewpoints as a negative, but rather a positive to perhaps learn something I didn't know before.  So please, don't look at sincere questions that I asked as "challenging" your understanding, but rather trying to figure out how you came to certain conclusions that I may learn something I didn't understand from before.

You're one of the few people that I know that connected the 24 elders to the 24 Priestly divisions ... 

Be blessed,

George

 

On 12/19/2022 at 6:30 PM, George said:

What event do you speculate lasts 10 years?

In Scripture, I do see a 45 day event that nobody seems to talk about ...

Dan 12:11  From the time that the daily sacrifice is removed and the abomination that causes desolation is set in place, there are 1,290 days. 

Dan 12:12  Blessed is the one who waits and attains to the 1,335 days. 

It appears there is a 45 day "cleanup" or something ... between the 1290 and the 1335 ... but I don't see a 10 year event ...

I'm still catching up so let me lay these to rest.

I cannot agree more with the first one above. We need the saints who get it wrong. It is not that I advocate false teachers, but a man is only settled in his mind when he can produce his arguments. Ephesians 4 says that we must keep the Unity of the Spirit in humility. That is, argue a point and then admit we are nothing and break bread together. Ephesians 4 continues with the RISEN and ASCENDED Lord giving gifts. These gifts were given to the disciples BEFORE He had passed through the POWER of resurrection and the POWER of the right hand of God's Throne. And they were largely ineffectual. Not in the sense that the healings done by the 70 were without power, but that the gospel of the Kingdom to Israel went unheeded.

Now, according to Ephesians 4, the gifts, or the gifted ones, function. And the result is MATURITY. At least, that is the goal. Notice the word "UNTIL" in verse 13. This word indicates that TIME must pass by before we come to the unity of THE FAITH. That is, you and I, and every other brother and sister must be allowed to speak, learn, make mistakes and argue. This, and other Forums create a vital platform for Christians to learn - often my doing it wrong. The average person learns much more by a mistake than by being right.

To your second posting above, I make no predictions as to any time. I took 10 years as a "maybe" - not to predict 10 years for anything, but to show that any time is possible. I judge that there are no prophecies for the Church that need fulfilling before Christ returns. All the prophecies yet to be fulfilled pertain to Israel. What is interesting is that God put Noah in the Ark seven days before it began to rain. If this is a Type of the Church being delivered from the Great Tribulation - what does it indicate? I'm not sure, but the Firstfruits rapture could be quite in advance of the start of the Great Tribulation. But how long ... I cannot say.

The three numbers at the end of Daniel remain a mystery. One is mentioned again - the 1260 days - the length of the Great Tribulation. But the other two are not explained. We can speculate - but prove - Naah. Of course, this does not stop me from speculating. But it is really sticking one's neck out to speak your speculation.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHAT VERSE SAYS THOSE BROUGHT BACK WITH JESUS ARE THEN RESURRECTED OUT FROM THE DEAD?

[Haven't you read 1 Thess 4:13-18 yet?  Or 2 Thess 2:1?  And you never explained what you think the difference is between "from the dead" and "OUT from the dead".  So, is there?  

RAISED UP IN A GLORIFIED BODY AT THE DEATH OF THE FLESH
IS WRITTEN RIGHT HERE  

[There is NO verse that says this.  You are confused.  "At the death of the flesh", the soul departs the body and goes to heaven (saved only).  The glorified body is WHEN the dead body is resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent.]

42So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:

it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[This is a description of dead bodies becoming spiritual bodies.  But there is nothing about being glorified "at the death of the flesh".]

Flesh dies, quickens bare grain, God gives a body, Follow HIM to be where He is RETURN.  
No body from the 'corruption' MAKES a glorified spiritual immortal body. 

Sorry but none of this makes sense.  And no one says "a body from the corruption MAKES a glorified spiritual immortal body", so why are you even mentioning what isn't true??

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
 

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits
of them that slept.

 

Do you have a question here?  Need an explanation?  Or what?

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

lUKE 4
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
MATT 27
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Ephesians 4
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Not in the right order?  Missing a Chapter and verse?  Too hard to follow? 
What will be the excuse this time for
NOT PUTTING FORTH WHAT YOU BELIEVE THESE VERSES TO MEAN and/or showing where/how I am wrong
IN WHAT EVER CONTEXT YOU FIND THEIR MEANING,

I WONDER.

You can wonder all you want, but your posts are so confused I have no idea what your point is.  What, exactly, are you looking for?  

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You said there was a single resurrection for the just, and another for the unjust.

I would say, Revelation 20 agrees with you.

[Rather, I agree with Rev 20.]

 There is written:Latin Vulgate
20:5 ceteri mortuorum non vixerunt donec consummentur mille anni haec est resurrectio prima

You will notice that this is the PRIMARY resurrection.
(NOT first in sequence, but first in honor and importance.)

I disagree.  There IS a clear sequence, from Rev 20:5.  The time space between the two resurrections is specifically noted.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The Greek word is Protos. Strong's concordance tells us this:

1 first in time or place
...a  in any succession of things or persons
...b  first in rank

2  influence, honour
...a  chief
...b  principal 

When you find lists of meanings in a lexicon, know that the first in the list is the most common.  And the first on this list shows "first in sequence".  Which is obvious in Rev 20:5.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Here is a verse using this same Greek word.

Mat. 20:27  And whosoever will be chief (G4413) among you, let him be your servant: 

This is irrelevant to the resurrections.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

So we have, for all eternity, only TWO resurrections by type : the primary or most honorable or chief of resurrections, the resurrection for all the righteous for all time.

Then we have the "second death" resurrection that is for all those who have rejected God for all time. 

No, the Bible is clear that there are only two resurrections, one for the saved, which is described as the FIRST resurrection, and one for the unsaved, which will be 1,000 years later.  If you don't see SEQUENCE in v.5, you aren't looking.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It goes without saying that Jesus' resurrection MUST be a part of one or the other. NO one would EVER classify Christ's resurrection with the second death resurrection. That leaves only one choice: Jesus was the firstfruits of this primary or mot honorable resurrection. 

Well, of course the resurrection of Jesus is a part of the FIRST resurrection.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The "each in turn" refers to Christ's resurrection, and "those who belong to Him".  And since Christ's is the first, it is called "firstfruits".  The resurrection of Jesus includes His resurrection body, which all believers will receive.  And from this verse, it says plainly that "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent, ALL believers will receive their glorified body.  

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This alone proves this is not just a single moment in time when the righteous are resurrected at the end of time. Jesus took place in this most honorable resurrections as the FIRSTfruits. 

I don't understand what you think "this alone proves".  Could you elaborate?  In a single moment in time Jesus was resurrected from the grave.  Also, in a single moment in time, ALL believers will be resurrected at the Second Advent.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When someone says "first" that means there will be a second, and that can mean a third and a fourth. In other words, Jesus was only the first of MANY to take part in this primary of the two resurrections.

[No it doesn't.  Regarding how many times Jesus comes to earth, the OT prophesied of only TWO.  So every verse that mentions the "coming of Jesus" is a reference to His SECOND Advent.  And Scripture is clear that there is ONLY ONE resurrection for the saved (1 Cor 15:23, Dan 12:2, John 5:29, and Acts 24:15).  

Therefore, if we believe Paul, there will be another wave when the dead in Christ rise up. WHEN? Of course, before the start of wrath. 

Prove from Scripture when "the wrath" begins.  I think it is just a big distraction which no one needs to figure out the timeline.  1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit your view.

When Jesus comes, "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected.  Period.  ONE resurrection.  And Rev 20:4-6 says plainly that the resurrection of the trib martyrs (saved people) is the FIRST resurrection and is 1,000 years before the ONLY OTHER resurrection, which is of the unsaved.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In short, we should never form doctrine from isolated verses, but rather from EVERY verse on a given subject in the bible. When talking about resurrections, one should never exclude Paul's rapture passages.

I've given all the verses needed to understand the clear timeline of the end times.  All you've done is perseverate over "the wrath" what and when ever that occurs.  

Where does the Bible note "the start of the wrath" and "the end of the wrath"?

Do you know what "wrath" means?  It means anger.  From the FIRST seal being opened, God is pouring His anger on earth, via the four horsemen of the apocalypse.  And it just keeps going, from seals to trumpets to bowls.  

And again, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us plainly WHEN the singular resurrection of the saved will occur:  when He comes.  And Jesus certainly DOESN'T COME to earth before the end of the Tribulation.  That would be a fantasy.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You said there were only TWO resurrections: one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous.

Which one then, will you place Jesus' resurrection in. His MUST fit on one or the other, else you must admit to more than two.

Do you really think the resurrection of Jesus is merely a human resurrection?  If you do, you will surely miss the whole point.  Jesus is the first, so that all believers can know what to expect.  

When the Bible talks about resurrection, it is about humans, not the God-Man.

There is A single resurrection of the saved and A single resurrection of the unsaved.

Do you disagree with this?  If you believe all the verses I've provided, then you shouldn't have any problem about resurrection.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Anyone can make the bible say most anything if they reject scriptures that oppose their point of view. 

OK, show me any verse you think opposes what I've put forth.  However, this works both ways.  What about all the verses I've shown?  Why don't you believe them?

And if you don't believe they say what I understand them to say, why haven't you even tried to prove that my understanding is wrong, by exegeting the verses?

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would you reject the talk about wrath when Paul included it in His famous rapture passage? Don't miss details that show a challenge to your point of view. 

I guess we have different understandings of what "wrath" means.  I see the WHOLE Tribulation as God pouring His wrath on earth.  I have no idea what you think "the wrath" even is.  Maybe you could describe it and document it.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please define what you mean by "great tribulation."

Jesus spoke of days of GT, then John wrote GT to the church of Thyatira. Then John said the great crowd seen in heaven in Rev. 7 came out of GT - at a time in His narrative before he (John) even started the 70th week. Why GT then are you referring to?

The whole 7 years.  Some think it is only the last half.  Regardless, it doesn't change anything.  I've given the timeline, with clear Scripture.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What you are saying is, you don't believe Paul, because he disagrees with you. I find that very interesting. Paul included by the Day of the Lord and the wrath of God in his rapture passage, but you wish to ignore the wrath part. 

You are dodging my challenge by this "response".  This is what I posted:

"Please show me the verse where Paul "wrote that the rapture would come before wrath".  I don't believe you.  Quote the verse or passage where that is made very clear."

Simple question:  can you do this or not?  

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As you said, the Holy Spirit does not spoon feed us. Paul never wrote "rapture before wrath" in those words. But we don't NEED it written out. Paul wrote of the Day of the Lord (Which is also the Day of His wrath [which is also the start of "wrath"]) only three verses after He wrote of the Lord descending. Why would Paul write that  - unless the DAY had something to do with the rapture? The answer is, he wouldn't.  

Again, it doesn't matter what or when your view of "the wrath" is.  We know there will be 7 years of God pouring His wrath on the earth, as seen in the seal, trumpet and bowl JUDGMENTS.  

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then Paul mentioned sudden destruction coming upon those left behind. Then Paul wrote of God's wrath, hinting strongly that this sudden destruction would have something to do with God's wrath. It makes sense, if God is going to destroy people, He will do it with wrath. 

Of course God destroys by His wrath.  That's a no-brainer.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you ever notice in Mat 27, he wrote, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened...?  It would seem, from that verse, that when God resurrects people long dead, it will cause an earthquake. Did you notice also there will be an earthquake when God resurrects the Two Witnesses? Why would a resurrection cause an earthquake? 

Well, the 2W are "raised to life", sure.  But they do NOT receive glorified bodies.  1 Cor 15:23 doesn't permit such a view.  They will come down from heaven, just like all the rest of the saved dead that are now in heaven, and all will receive their glorified bodies at the same event.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No one tells us why in the bible, but we can guess. Dead bodies turn to dust. The dust changes locations. Most especially those whose graves were in the ground in a wooden casket. Imagine graves of people before the flood. The dust of just one of their bodies could have scatted for thousands of miles in any direction. I believe in one moment of time, God will pull all that dust together that once made up those bodies, and that will cause an earthquake. 

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the timeline of history.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I find an earthquake at the 6th seal, right where I believe the rapture of the church will take place. I find the world's worst earthquake "on the last day" at the 7th vial, where God will raise up the OT saints, even those from before the flood. 

There is an earthquake at the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl.  Are they speaking of the same event, or separate earthquakes?

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

God will NOT make reservations for US, His children with His wrath. But the flip side is, God WILL make reservations with His wrath for those NOT in Christ. While WE get raptured, THEY get wrath. 

It is very difficult to separate the rapture from God's wrath: the rapture will be the trigger for God's wrath.

By "rapture" do you mean Jesus taking glorified believers up to heaven?

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Romans 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Again, salvation tied with wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

How are we to be delivered from wrath? By way of the rapture.

The only problem here is the glaring lack of evidence for a 'rapture'.  The Bible says "saved from wrath".  That's not a rapture, any way you cut it.

God delivered the Israelites from His wrath on the Egyptians even while they were IN the land.  He can certainly do it again.  Don't you have faith that He can and will?