Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

They say that the best defense against an awkward question is another question.

If you say that those who died and were resurrected before Christ, died again, and I ask you for scriptures for that, it seems to me to be the easiest question to answer. But I knew that you couldn't so I opened the field wide and asked for ANY such case in the whole Bible.

 

1.The evidence is that the Bible doesn't say they received glorified bodies.

2.  The Bible doesn't say they went to heaven.  The case of Eutycus is that he was taken home.  That is not heaven, no matter how pretty his wife was, if he was married.

3.  Acts 26:23 and 1 Cor 15:23 don't permit your view.  Jesus was the FIRST to be resurrected, which has to mean receive a glorified body.  Everyone before Him were only resuscitated, not glorified.  If they were, the Bible would have said so.

4.  1 Cor 15:23 says specfically that all believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes".  All references to the "coming" of Jesus refers to the Second Advent, because the OT prophesies of just two advents.  So that's what is being referred to when we read "the Lords' coming", etc.

You said:  "But, hey brother, I can walk away from it. No need to answer.

Be that as it may, I'm surprised that you could say that our Lord Jesus "was not part of the FIRST resurrection" Being part of the FIRST resurrection is the QUALIFICATION for reigning. How then does Christ reign! You see, the word "protos" can mean "first in time", which is what you stick to, denying the resurrection of all those who were raised before our Lord with an argument about their type of body. But "protos" also means "first in rank or importance"."

I never avoid answering questions.  And if I don't have an answer, I'll admit it.

I thought I was clear on the phrase you take issue with.  Acts 26:23 says that Jesus was first to be resurrected.  We know there were several examples in the OT and Jesus Himself raised people from the dead, including Lazarus and a widow's son, plus more. But the Bible does NOT say any of them were glorified.  They simply came back to life, in their physical and mortal body.  

The Jewish leaders were so jealous of Jesus, they planned to KILL Lazarus after his resurrection.  That should be enough to show that he wasn't in an immortal body.

You said, "If this is the meaning, then saying that Christ did not partake of it relegates Him to imposter-king.

But I must say that with a small change, you and I are not far apart.

Go well bro."

Let me be clear(er).  Jesus is the FIRST human being to be resurrected with a glorified body.  Then, "when He comes", all saved people (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected with glorified bodies.

It would be absurd to claim that Jesus was in the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of all believers.  That wouldn't be possible.  He HAD to be resurrected FIRST.  That's all I meant.

[FreeGrace]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

This is a bit off topic, but you used it in a posting on this thread.

The Lake of Fire is used interchangeably with Gehenna, the Second Death, destruction and/or "perdition". Since the first three names are concepts to explain it, we only have the Greek for "perdition". Vine's Expository Dictionary tells us that "perdition" is neither annihilation nor cessation of senses like physical death. It meaning is; "exquisite lack of well-being". 

That is why it is described in Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9 as "their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched", and in Revelation 14:11 as; "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night ... ."

Also you will note that Gehenna is not physical death. It is undiluted suffering (lack of well-being) administered by God. Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA

So your understanding of the Second Death being the death of once resurrected bodies must be reconsidered.

Thanks for your comments, but I'm very comfortable with my view.  I used to understand "second death" to simply refer to the spiritual death (separation) condition of everyone in the LOF.  Though that is true, when I realized the Bible teaches that unbelievers will be resurrected, I began to  re-think my position.  

The resurrection of unbelievers isn't about an immortal glorified body, like that of the resurrection of the saved.  So what is their resurrection anyway?  Just that their soul will join back up with their body.  God is omnipotent, so not hard for Him at all.

Then you said:  "Also you will note that Gehenna is not physical death. It is undiluted suffering (lack of well-being) administered by God. Matthew 10:28"

When the unbeliever is "cast into the LOF" per Rev 20:15, in their resurrected body, how long will it take for the physical body to be totally consumed?  Pretty quick, I'm sure.  So yes, Gehanna isn't physical death.  It is spiritual separation from God.  But since unbelievers WILL BE resurrected, we must deal with that fact.

I have no doubt that the "second death" is a reference to the fact that the resurrected body will die again.  This view is not in conflict with any Scripture, though it probably is with many believers who haven't thought through this, or don't even have the facts on this.  

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Read through Revelation 14:14-20 carefully.  You will see one reaping to the Lord in the clouds, then another reaping occurs regarding the wrath harvest.  

That is, after the first gathering to the Lord in the clouds (vs 14-16) it says in vs 17-19, "Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe. 19So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath."

Different angels - different reapings. So concerning believers, the chapter starts with first fruits (plural), and finishes with a harvest. (and this 144,000 is described differently than the 144,000 from Jewish tribes in chapter 7)

I failed to mention how I view ch 14, which is that John was describing a future event, the end of the Tribulation.  So, yes, there will be a resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent.  The other "harvest" will be a bloody mess, not a resurrection.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

It has been said that Christ was not the first to be resurrected from the dead so I offer this scripture….

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (prōtotokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 

If Christ was not the first (in time) to be resurrected from the dead  (never die again) then He is robbed of His preeminence (first in rank). 

Excellent!  There is at least one more:  Acts 26:23 -  that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Rev 20:5 is very clear about the time gap between the two resurrections:  1,000 years.  The second resurrection, which is for the unsaved, will occur just before the GWT judgment. 

All believers will be judged at the Bema, which will occur at the Second Advent.

Would you show me the text that indicates a bema?  How does this square with the description of the judgment of Matthew  25?  Matthew indicates that saved and unsaved stand before the judgment and at that time are separated some to the joy and some to weeping and gnashing.  Sheep to the right and goats to the left.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Vine Abider]

45 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I failed to mention how I view ch 14, which is that John was describing a future event, the end of the Tribulation.  So, yes, there will be a resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent.  The other "harvest" will be a bloody mess, not a resurrection.

And at the beginning of the chapter is when the ones who ripened before the harvest are caught up to the throne- the first fruits.

[FreeGrace]

15 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

Would you show me the text that indicates a bema?  How does this square with the description of the judgment of Matthew  25?  Matthew indicates that saved and unsaved stand before the judgment and at that time are separated some to the joy and some to weeping and gnashing.  Sheep to the right and goats to the left.

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I don't have a text for that.  What I know from Scripture is that there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. (Dan 12:2, Jn 5:29, and Acts 24:15)

I also know the resurrection of the saved is called the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:4-6.  That means the second resurrection (for the unsaved) is 1,000 years later, as Rev 20 says.

So, where would the Bema occur?  The most reasonable time would be when Jesus comes back to earth, resurrects and raptures all believers, ends the Tribulation, and then sets up His MK.  Since all believers will receive glorified immortal bodies to serve and reign with Christ, it only makes sense that Jesus will reward the faithful at the beginning of the MK, which will allow all believers to to able to serve/reign properly, in immortal bodies.

In Matt 25:41, we see the unsaved sent to the LOF.  However, we also know from Rev 20 that the GWT judgment and LOF isn't until after the MK.  

So we have to ask; is Matt 25 really teaching that the Bema and GWT occur at the same time?  I don't see how, since Rev 20:5,6 says the two resurrections are 1000 years apart.

That said, it would seem that both the Bema and GWT can be spoken of in the same breath even though they occur 1,000 years apart.

However, if you take Matt 25 as meaning both do occur together, then you definitely have a problem with Rev 20, because it shows clearly that the martyrs are resurrected and reign with Christ for 1,000 year, which is the FIRST resurrection, and then at the end of the MK, the battle of Gog and Magog and then the GWT.

What is clear is that the saved and the unsaved will each face a judgment.  Rev 20 says they are 1,000 years apart.

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

And at the beginning of the chapter is when the ones who ripened before the harvest are caught up to the throne- the first fruits.

Ah, ah,ah.  Really?  "caught up" to the throne?  Yes, they are described as first fruits, but not in relation to any resurrection.  The text says the 144K are "standing before the throne".  We aren't told they were "caught up".  They could be dead saints who have already gone to heaven.

I don't understand everything in Revelation, and doubt that anyone else does either, if they are honest about it.  Scholars aren't even in agreement who the 144K are in ch 7 and ch 14.  Some believe them to be different people.

What I know is what the Bible SAYS;  one resurrection of the saved, and that will be "when He comes".  1 Cor 15:23.  So I don't accept any view that violates this fact.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The word "sign" in the NT means a miracle.  As in "signs and wonders".

Then you said:  "To avoid having humans with darkened minds mangling the true meaning, God forbade "private interpretation" (2nd Pet.1:20). What then is left as a resource? Only the Bible itself. Let us take an example.

God restores the earth from Chaos to a pristine paradise in 6 days. He sets the boundary of these 6 days with "the evening and the morning". But does not do this with the 7th day. Why? Because a Book of the Bible written 1,500 years later, Hebrews, is going to propose that man has failed to give God His Sabbath, but that God has set aside a Sabbath for Himself and His people and it is FUTURE to the Church age. How are we to know what He is talking about?"

Yes, Genesis 1 is not original creation but rather, a restoration from chaos.  

Then you said:  "And so to fathom the length of Adam's life we apply the "day" that fits - the last one - 1,000 years. If Adam died WITHIN the day he ate and he lived 930 years, that "day" was 1,000 years. And if the first Sabbath was 1,000 years, then the future Sabbath of Hebrews 3 and 4 must be 1,000 years. So then we have a means to discover when the future Sabbath Rest is. All we have to do is find a 1,000 year period when God has His Man in place. And we find such a "day" in Revelation 20!"

I understand the Sabbath rest in Hebrews to be eternal reward.  

You said:  "And so, that is how we need the Bible to interpret the Bible. If it is left to men to interpret they come up with the wrong answer. The theologians who did not use the Bible came up with the idea that Adam must have died "spiritually". This is wrong for two reasons:
1. A spirit cannot die. There is no record of it and Luke 20:35-36 says that angels, which are spirits, cannot die
2. Adam dying spiritually presupposes that he had spiritual life. But he did not ever eat of the Tree of Life.

Man's private interpretation was wrong - but it is widely taught."

I certainly agree that we need the Bible to interpret itself.  However, regarding Adam, he certainly did die spiritually "on that day" that he ate the forbidden fruit. 

The literal Hebrew is:  "on that day, dying, thou shalt die".  Now, did Adam drop over "on that day"?  No, he didn't.  He continued living, even 930 years more.  So, you have to ask the question, what, exactly did die "on that day" since the Bible says he died "on that day".

The only obvious answer is his spirit.  Back up to ch 1:26,27 where God said, "let US create man in OUR image".  Not about physical characteristics since God is the Spirit and therefore doesn't have physical characteristics.  It refers to God's Triune nature: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  3 parts.  So God created man with 3 parts;  body, soul, and spirit.  1 Thess 5:23 identifies these 3 parts.  And Heb 4:12 shows that though related, soul and spirit can be differentiated.

So, "on that day", Adam died spiritually, which means he was completely separated from God.  He had no ability to fix his problem, and when the Lord visited in the cool of the evening, both Adam and the woman hid, demonstrating their spiritually dead condition.  

However, when the Lord spoke to Adam, he was able to respond.  And he blamed the woman, who blamed, the serpent, etc, etc, etc.

So the gospel promise is based on the fact that man is born spiritually dead and physically alive.  That means man needs to be "born again", "RE-generated" or "made alive", all biblical terms.  

So when a person responds to the gospel promise, God RE-generates them, or gives them new birth.  That refers to the albatros around their neck, or dead human spirit.  It is made alive.  From Paul's writings, we know that worship is from the human spirit, and Jesus told the Samaritan woman that one must "worship God in spirit and in truth" in Jn 4:24.  iow, in order to worship God, the person must have a living human spirit and worship according to God's Word.

Keep in mind that Adam's condition before his rebellion cannot be compared to anything today.  

I've read your posting and noted it. If you agree, we're getting far from "Multiple Raptures", so I'll pass on any discussion. But thanks for showing your understanding and the time you took to answer.

[FreeGrace]

38 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I've read your posting and noted it. If you agree, we're getting far from "Multiple Raptures", so I'll pass on any discussion. But thanks for showing your understanding and the time you took to answer.

In my first post, I showed that there is one resurrection of all believers, and no verses that describe Jesus taking any glorified believers to heaven.  Thus, showing from the Bible that there are not "multiple raptures".  Actually, not even one, if a trip to heaven is included.

All the rest of my posts have been replies to posters' comments, questions, etc.

I'm not trying to derail the thread; just respond to the comments of others.